The Will of the Senate PBM - out of character thread IV

[econ21]

Just to say that HRE died early in my first English game - and apparently in Monarch's. The killer seems to have been the Danes. So it does look like we thought that HRE are going to be a challenging faction - which is good.

[Dutch_guy]

Guys, a quick question: If I were to uninstall BI, it wouldn't automatically uninstall Rome, right ?

Not too long ago I uninstalled MTW VI, and it also uninstalled MTW in the process.

[Lucjan]

Wait..econ, you have the game already? O.o And I have to wait until Tuesday... grrrrr

[econ21]

Guys, a quick question: If I were to uninstall BI, it wouldn't automatically uninstall Rome, right ?

I fear it does. I got a warning message of that kind just before I tried to uninstall it.

Wait..econ, you have the game already?

Yup, some initial impression here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=71819

I've been playing as much as I can since Friday evening and it's growing on me. My English campaign on VH/VH is surprisingly challenging, without either repeated mass AI stacks or +7 type stat bonuses. It reminds me of STW/MTW in that regard. I'm only now about to storm Paris; the Scots have besieged Eginburgh and are about to take it back; the Poles beat my Crusade to Antioch when the shore was just in sight; the Pope hates me and fries my generals; it's all good. (Well, apart from the smell of burnt flesh, I suppose.)

[Dutch_guy]

I've been playing as much as I can since Friday evening and it's growing on me. My English campaign on VH/VH is surprisingly challenging, without either repeated mass AI stacks or +7 type stat bonuses. It reminds me of STW/MTW in that regard. I'm only now about to storm Paris; the Scots have besieged Eginburgh and are about to take it back; the Poles beat my Crusade to Antioch when the shore was just in sight; the Pope hates me and fries my generals; it's all good. (Well, apart from the smell of burnt flesh, I suppose.)

What kind of bonusses does VH give to the AI in M2, have you got any idea ?

[econ21]

No, they are not very apparent. I asked but did not get much joy:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=71739

The VH campaign may help explain why the Pope hates me and I have few friends. The powerful Venetians did approach me with an alliance though.

On the battlefield, the match ups do not feel "unfair" - my units don't fare worse when facing equivalent AI units - so I suspect VH battles may be the default for experienced players.

[Braden]

Just to let you know I have a battle to do tonight. Sorry for the delays here, I'm just all over the place with illness....

Will play this battle tonight AND post my last battle report up tonight as well.

[TinCow]

I've been playing M2 as well on H/VH and I haven't noticed anything that looks like AI cheating. (Before anyone comments on how I have it early, I would like to say that I pre-ordered it 3 weeks ago. They've already taken my money, so I don't feel bad getting the product.) Diplomacy has been very fair towards me and my serious problems with the Pope have been entirely of my own making. I win pretty consistently in battle, but I have had two major defeats.

The first was a combination of the second and third battles of the game, during which I expected to completely eliminate Scotland. They attacked me with two small armies to relieve the siege of Edinburgh. Even combined they were smaller than me and I had a good defensive position on a hilltop so I put my main line facing the army I thought would arrive first and put two spears to hold the other army until the first was done. Unfortunately, the AI coordinated the armies and struck at the exact same moment. On top of that the main army broke half my line in the initial charge. I eventually rallied and won, but lost half my army in the process. Still on the AI turn, Scotland moved a 3/4 stack into the attack. I could have held it off with my full army, but with the huge losses from before it was hopeless. I lost my entire northern army and it took me about 10-15 more turns to finish Scotland.

The second was assaulting rebel held Bruge. I assaulted with 5 siege towers and a ram with about 10-12 units of spears ready to climb the walls. Unfortunately, the rebels had 4-5 very decent infantry units on the walls along with crossbowmen. They burned 2 siege towers and the ram, leaving me with only 3 assault points on the walls. They moved their heavy infantry to those spots and proceeded to assault my units on the walls from both sides. I kept feeding new spears into the fight (siege tower climbing isnt slow anymore) but with heavy infantry on both sides of the assault points, it was a losing battle of attrition. I eventually withdrew with 2/3 of my army dead.

As for HRE, they're still alive and relatively stable in my game. I've been very friendly with them for most of the game. The heir to the throne recently asked me to assassinate his father so he could become King (Reward: 5000 gold and increased relations with HRE). That was easily the most unconventional mission I've been assigned yet, though I've had a few other interesting ones.

Sieges are the most incredible things I have ever seen rendered on a computer screen. There's nothing that even remotely compares to the graphical beauty of a row of trebuchet doing their work. The AI is very good on siege defense too. I've seen the AI sally with cavalry to attack two units of trebuchet I left vulnerable, VERY smart! When defending fortresses and citadels (with multiple rings of walls) they systematically withdraw to the next level of wall after each has fallen. During an assault on a French citadel (ouch those things are tough) the AI even used counter-battery fire with a pair of trebuchet of their own from inside the walls.

Complaints: France and Spain have had problems with Crusades. Both made large Crusade armies, put them on boats, and shipped them to the North Sea. They then proceeded to land and re-embark every single turn until the Crusades were done, at which point they walked back home. Also, I've noticed the passive AI bug several times. They will sometimes sit there getting slaughtered by my longbows (which are VERY decent IMO, not nerfed at all like some say) when the AI logic engine should make them assault all-out.

[Lucjan]

I can't wait until tomorrow. *Gets the game tomorrow evening* W00T! Then I have all thanksgiving week off of work to gorge myself on it. Thank you vacation days!

[Braden]

Ok, just to let everyone know that i have the save file but the Uploader doesnt appear to be working (either that or my net connection is timing out).

I'll upload it from work tomorrow morning

What a pain

[Lucjan]

Why do the forums look all bugged out and weird lately? I don't like it..

[Ignoramus]

I would be willing to do HRE PBeM campaign. The only reason I dropped out of this one was because it wasn't that enjoyable being in the Upper House. I couldn't download all the mods, so I couldn't ever be consul, thus the fun ebbed away after the first 15 years. But it certainly is the best PBeM the Guild has ever had.

[Braden]

Save file uploaded (suspect issues with a slow internet connection last night at home), will post TWO battle reports tomorrow morning (will upload stuff from work as its fast and reliable at least!).

BTW – we suffered zero casualties in that last battle.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/251-sum-Manius1.zip

M2:TW campaign – I’d love to take part in it as a member of whatever we use as an equivalent of the Senate Upper House.

My current PC will firmly NOT play M2 in any form; and I am not adding anything to it (seeing as its still physically in “bits” but working since the last problems I had).

New PC is on the cards in about 10 months (i.e. when a loan is paid off).

So, doesn’t really matter to me what faction we play in it but I’m looking forward to it!

20+ years of LARP and RP experience in a Medieval setting means I’ll be well up for playing characters.

[Mount Suribachi]

Just to let you guys know, I will be away from Wednesday to Sunday night

[Braden]

Just to let you know that I am fully up to date on battle reports now. I really must total up my kill ratio…..

[TinCow]

I just noticed that tomorrow is the 6 month anniversary of the start of this PBM (brainstorming began on May 17th, actual play began on May 22nd). As such, here are a few interesting stats on what has been (IMHO) the most successful Org PBM ever.

Total WOTS related posts: 4,210
Percentage of all Throne Room posts related to the WOTS:37.46%
Players involved: 32
Saved Games Uploaded to the Org: 221
Actual Turns Elapsed In-Game: 118
Average # of Posts Per Turn: 35.67
Average # of Saved Games Per Turn: 1.87

Great job guys. I never thought the game would last this long.

[Braden]

......and still going. I fought a battle only last night!

[Braden]

Battle report posted up now.

.....and why doesn't Edit work!!!

[econ21]

....and why doesn't Edit work!!!

No idea - is anyone else experiencing this problem? You are still showing up as a member with no warning points, so you should have an edit button. I suggest you contact the membership admin, Ser Clegane for help.

PS: Congrats on the stunning run of victories. Was the last battle report really autumn, rather than summer? or is there another one to come (last savegame download is labelled autumn).

[Braden]

Hmmm...it may have been summer, was working from Memory but was sure of it.

No, no other battles to post at this time......

....hang on. Ok, as a habit, after I exit the battle after winning I always Hit the Advisor button to make sure that when I save it there is no corruption, and I'm sure it said it was Autumn.

Could still be wrong, my memory being shoddy at the best of times.

....and does it seem I'm running things at the moment to you as well??

....and where is the chat gone on the IC section? I've asked valid questions IC and its as if the Senate has all gone home (*sniff, sob*)

Edit button - it "could" be a cookie issue. I'll look into that first.

[Lucjan]

We're definately in autumn already, I just haven't had the time amongst everything I've been trying to accomplish at once lately to sit down and right up a consular report.

..sorry, I know, ok, I admit it, I was playing M2. lol Can you blame me? I'll get around to it most likely tomorrow morning after I get home from work.

But after autumn we've got winter and spring, and then elections. I hope everybody is ready for the next two months. This time, there will be no calm before the storm.

[Braden]

Regarding my IC request. The core rules do not allow retraining except for upgrades, so I thought my idea was not only more realistic but in the spirit of the rules.

Manius would get a fresh replacement unit, but the other would be moved to Italy and disbanded.

BTW - when in RTR is the Marius event set for?

Also, the RTR Forums are working again!

[econ21]

Disbanding valuable veterans is too hardcore for me - although I know some RTR folk have recommended doing that on historical grounds. We can't retrain, but we can "top up" depleted units with men from fresh units. That's what I do in my solo play anyway. It's kind of like real life military units receiving replacements to bring them back up to strength.

For the Marian reforms, we need an Imperial city inside Italy, but excluding Rome.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I have begun studying for several Sun Certificates which will take all my free time for the next couple of months. That's why I've been so quiet lately. As such, I will have to move to the upper house. I would like my avatar to take up a governorship if possible.

On a side note, I am very interested in hearing about everyone's experiences with MTW2.

[econ21]

Hi DDW - I was wondering where you have got to. No problem going to the Upper House, but it would be good if Lucius could promote Marcellus's cause in the Senate.

On M2TW, most of the WoS players who have expressed an opinion seem to rate it very highly (TinCow, Lucjan, Wonderland, Tamur etc).

I don't like the feel of the battles as much as RTR: PE, for some reason - it may be the unit cohesion bug thing. But they do offer better gameplay. There's a question mark over AI passivity but otherwise, CA have managed to make VH battles fairly competitive without blatantly rigging the stats.

The campaign aspect is greatly improved - on VH as England, it is admirably tight and the AI seems as if it is actually learning how to fight. For example, I'm currently having a nice standoff with a pair of Danish stack, for example - in RTW, they would either split up or attack me peicemeal; in M2TW, they are just happily guarding Hamburg and not attacking my strong stack on a bridge. I really don't know how to end this - if I attack, I know losses would be so high, it would a pyrrhic victory if a victory at all.

[Lucjan]

I've had similar situations. Me and France sitting on opposite sides of the Rhine with equal sized armies. With the eruption of war with Venice I had no choice but to accept a French proposal of a ceasefire. Just couldn't afford to fight two wars at once at the time.

[Dutch_guy]

The campaign aspect is greatly improved - on VH as England, it is admirably tight and the AI seems as if it is actually learning how to fight. For example, I'm currently having a nice standoff with a pair of Danish stack, for example - in RTW, they would either split up or attack me peicemeal; in M2TW, they are just happily guarding Hamburg and not attacking my strong stack on a bridge. I really don't know how to end this - if I attack, I know losses would be so high, it would a pyrrhic victory if a victory at all.

Yes indeed ! After about 80 turns I finally managed to drive the French out of Northern Europe, and re-enforce Antwerp to drive back the Danes.

However, the Sicilians (who hold Dijon ?!) and the Spaniards (who hold the iberian peninsular and part of Africa) have decided they want a piece of me. And started a very, very costly war against me. Too bad for them I was finally able to have three standing armies in N-Europe. Which basically means I'm currently besieging Spanish held Bordeaux and Sicilian held Dijon. My third army is marching for Hamburg, which the Danes have held for the majority of the game.

Had they, however, decided to attack me...say...25 turn ago they would have swamped me. As by that time the French were still a major force, and the Danes were still trying to force Antwerp from me. I would have been hard put to defend against 4 major powers so early on.

Luckily for me that didn't happen.

[econ21]

Just spent the better part of a day on M2TW and got to turn 90 in my English campaign. I experienced a lot of really good battles - some of the best ever in a TW game.

- (A cheesy one to start) The stand-off with the Danes outside Hamburg resolved itself when their double stack decided to try to storm the bridge (kudos for them attacking together, instead of sequentially as in RTW). Unfortunately, I had just read Ignoramus's post about stakes and bridges, and I could not resist. I could not put stacks on the road, but covered the sides. Then I stuck three shiltrons in the game on the road. It was sad. The Danes had lots of wonderful infantry, but lost everything for the cost of a couple of my mercenary spearmen.

- A more honorable battle followed on the 18th year of besieging Hamburg, as a Danish relief force and two smaller armies tried to save the castle. I set up a corner defence and remembered to post stakes. Then I shot to death the main Danish army and charged when out of ammo. Unfortunately, I had lost track of the two supporting armies who were hidden in the woods. They killed all my knights, although I beat them in the end.

- Had a superb mountain-side defence while besieging Bern. The map reminded me of Shinao in STW or some of the nice Italian mountains in MTW. I forgot to deploy stakes, but did not need too - the height advantage was too great and I crushed a 1:2 force of high class Milanese.

- Discovered perhaps the killer strategy in M2TW: crusades! Launched one on Milan, picking up four crusader knights and a host of sergeants. Still wondered how I would take Milan, as I had only two swords. But the Milanese immediately counterattacked, sandwiching me between two armies. Finally got to use knights in numbers and was very impressed. I am going to try to field four per stack now - they are just excellent at collapse flanks after you've expended your ammunition. They are also very useful for hunting down those annoying Milanese crossbows, if they get separated from their main force. Reached about 34000 florins for sacking Milan. I immediately tried to spam a second crusade to Genoa, but thankfully the game imposes a waiting period between crusades.

Bottomline: I take back what I said about RTR:PE battles being better. I now prefer the M2TW ones. The M2TW terrain is just beautiful and the higher kill rates make the battles feel more vivid.

[Lucjan]

I've been playing a Spanish campaign since I started the game a few days ago.

Currently on turn 68 and I have Leon, Toledo, Zaragoza, Valencia and Palermo. At war with Portugal who has Cordoba and Lisboa (and thanks to an enormous naval trade they've built, one which I simply can't match because of their naval superiority) they've actually managed to hold their own for a little while. But the loss of Palermo was a big mistake on their part and it's going to cost them the war.

Siege of Palermo - I had 4 Padded Armor Spears, 3 Mailed Knights, 1 Padded Archer against 2 mailed crossbows 2 mailed sword militia, their crown prince, and 1 dismounted feudal knights. I was intending to wait this out to the very end and hope I'd get some reinforcements there before then, but they sallied on the second turn of the siege. Their biggest mistake was committing their militia and knights to combat with my padded spears and expecting their crown prince to hold my knights with support from their crossbows. They slaughtered my infantry in melee, I lost some 240 spears, but having three mail knights to their single prince allowed me to pin their knights and then charge twice from opposite flanks. We both lost our commanding officer at exactly the same time, but I got lucky in that theirs was the prince, not just a captain, and after some coaxing by my surviving knights, they all attempted a retreat back to the castle. Hunted down and exterminated every last one of the buggers.

Bridge Battle north of Cordoba - Just had the enemy try to cross a bridge with about 5 mailed sword militia against 2 padded spears and 4 padded archers, caught them in a crossfire as they came across the bridge and while the spears pinned them in one spot, they never stood a chance. Ran them down with mail knights and ransomed the lot of them back for 2,300 florins.

Right now I've got a crusader army led by my prince marching to Jerusalem (in Northern Italy now), comprised of 4 feudal knights, the prince, 4 padded spears, 1 dismounted foot knights, 3 crusader spears, 2 crusader knights, 2 padded archers, 3 pilgrims.

And my other large armies are located in Palermo, defence against any potential French aggression, consists mainly of a buffed up army that took the city plus some extra missiles.

And a fort north of Cordoba with 2 generals, 5 mail knights, 5 padded archers and 4 padded spears.

Oh, and I forced through an election of one of my cardinals as Pope. I had three cardinals in, won the vote by having them all vote for my top cardinal and securing Englands vote through the offer of an alliance. Milan went along with it too without any extra prompting.

[Braden]

....erm...hate to be the one who mentions it first but....

.....danger of being seriously Off Topic guys!

M2:TW discussions on the M;TW thread please

Let's not let M2 consume us to the point that we fail to finalise perhaps THE best and most successful (not to mention long running) PBeM on these forums.