New comp ideas

[Leftenant Moley]

Hi,

I’m considering in buying a new Pc, especially to run the new Medieval 2, that new C&C game is looking quite nice too but Medieval is a definite

What things should I consider like

What key things should I look for in a motherboard?

AMD(sempro, athlon, etc which is faster) or Intel(Pentium...not celeron cus its slower) ?

And what about the graphics card? Is Radeon X1600XT better than Geforce 7600GT? Will 256MB do I should I look at 512?

Which operating system for games? Home or pro (sp2)


Also what do you think of this system I made on vantage computers (ever heard of them? Any good?) Anything here that’s overkill or underpowered? Apparently they will build for £840 which is nice cus im only wanting to spend £900( however I flexible)

System Case: Vantage Evolution Inspire Case
Power Supply: 400W Zoostorm PSU (26-32dB)…don’t know power requirements for the graphics card but its easily and cheap to up
Motherboard: Asus M2N-E Motherboard (Skt AM2)
Processor: AMD 64-Bit 3500+ (Skt AM2)
System Memory: 2Gb Corsair DDR2 667 Dual Channel Memory (2x 1Gb)
Hard Drive One: 74Gb Serial ATA150 10000RPM Western Digital
Removeable Storage Devices: Floppy Disc Drive
CD Device One: DVDRW Drive (16x +/- Dual Layer)
CD Device Two: Please Select
Video Card: Radeon X1600XT 256Mb DDR +DVI/TV PCI-X
Audio Device: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy SE 7.1
PCI Devices: Please Select
Keyboard & Mouse Set: Keyboard & Optical Mouse Set
Speakers: Logitech S100 Desktop Set
Monitor: 15 Inch TFT Monitor (16ms)
Operating System: Windows XP Home SP/2 - OEM

[Ludens]

Hello Leftenant Moley. I think you may get a more replies if you post your question here.

[Leftenant Moley]

Thx Ludens, i already contacted Papewaio who moved the thread for me.

Ok after some research I think this system would be better, the processor has been upped I changed to from ATi X1600XT to geforce 7600GT(was only 9 notes more expensive). And now the system costs £997.12 (fine)

System Case: Vantage Evolution Inspire Case
Power Supply: 400W Zoostorm PSU (26-32dB)
Motherboard: Asus M2N-E Motherboard (Skt AM2)
Processor: AMD 64-Bit Dual Core X2 4200+ (Skt AM2)
System Memory: 2Gb Corsair DDR2 800 Memory (2x 1Gb)
Hard Drive One: 74Gb Serial ATA150 10000RPM Western Digital
Hard Drive Two: None Selected
Removeable Storage Devices: Floppy Disc Drive
CD Device One: DVD Drive (16x)
CD Device Two: None Selected
Video Card: GeForce 7600GT 256Mb DDR +DVI/TV
Audio Device: Creative SoundBlaster Audigy SE 7.1
PCI Devices: None Selected
PCI Devices: None Selected
Keyboard & Mouse Set: Keyboard & Optical Mouse Set
Speakers: Logitech S100 Desktop Set
Monitor: 17 Inch TFT Viewsonic VA702 (12ms)
Operating System: Windows XP Home SP/2 - OEM

However I still got some questions

Which operating system for games? WinXP Home or pro (sp2)

Why does AMD perform better than intel even although the clock frequencies are lower? how do i check if my AMD processor is sufficient for future games. Because on the boxes it just states Processor 2Ghz Required etc and AMD clock frequencies are way lower than Intel(It seems the AMD 64-Bit Dual Core X2 4200+ has a clock frequency of 2.2Ghz yet preforms better than Intel 3.4Ghz)

Does the hard drive of 10000rpm matter for playing games? or can i save notes by selecting the 7200rpm one?

How much of a difference does the DDR800 ram make over the DDR667?

should i look to get 512 MB card or stick with the 256Mb?

[x-dANGEr]

Before I answer any of your questions, you must know my answers aren't the most reliable around here, but they can hint to a few things...

For a start, I guess a new Intel Conroe as a processor would do you a better job, it consumes less power, thus produces less heat and is faster all in all and cheaper.

I use Windows XP Professional SP2 and yet to face problems with games..

Does the hard drive of 10000rpm matter for playing games? or can i save notes by selecting the 7200rpm one?

I don't think it matters that much. Or in short, the difference isn't worth the extra noise IMO.. (Neither the extra price)

How much of a difference does the DDR800 ram make over the DDR667?

Little I guess.

should i look to get 512 MB card or stick with the 256Mb?

If you're not looking for a soon change, I'd suggest the 512 one..

[Geezer57]

Which operating system for games? WinXP Home or pro (sp2)

Either XP Home or XP Pro should be fine for modern games, there really shouldn't be any difference. That said, however, I've been using Pro for years, without issue.

Why does AMD perform better than intel even although the clock frequencies are lower? how do i check if my AMD processor is sufficient for future games. Because on the boxes it just states Processor 2Ghz Required etc and AMD clock frequencies are way lower than Intel(It seems the AMD 64-Bit Dual Core X2 4200+ has a clock frequency of 2.2Ghz yet preforms better than Intel 3.4Ghz)

That's the result of processor efficiency, or IPC (Instructions Per Clock) - being able to do more work per clock cycle, in other words. Back in the days of the Pentium III vs. AMD Athlon wars, Intel found itself losing the battle - their architecture was second in reaching the 1Ghz "barrier", and had lower headroom. Their first issue of the 1066Mhz P3 processors had to be withdrawn, when enthusiast sites found them returning errors with certain math operations and reported the findings publicly. Intel had major egg-on-the-face syndrome at that moment. The people at the top decided that wasn't going to happen again, and made a major push for an architechture that emphasized speed over efficiency - lowering IPC for the first time ever in a new Intel processor series. Thus the Pentium 4 was born, and it really wasn't very pretty. The first series of P4's had trouble exceeding the later P3's, which really wasn't sorted out until the Northwood cores came out. They competed fairly well with the AMD Athlon XP's, with both sides swapping the "lead" for bragging rights. But when AMD introduced the Athlon 64, Intel's P4's were pretty much stuck in 2nd place. And there is where they've been for a while now, at least for the desktop enthusiast crowd, until just recently - when the Coroe core Core 2 Duo processors (now that's a mouthfull, isn't it?) were released! Now Intel is solidly wearing the performance crown, and they did it with lower-speed, lower-power, and higher efficiency. Their decision to de-emphasize IPC and focus on megahertz has proven to be a major wrong turn, one they've fortunately learned from.

Does the hard drive of 10000rpm matter for playing games? or can i save notes by selecting the 7200rpm one?

For games, there will be virtually no difference between a moderately priced 7200 rpm drive and a high-dollar 10K one. The only very minor benefit will occur in initial load time (and maybe occasional game-level loads, if the game requires loading new levels), during gameplay it's doubtful you'd see any difference. This is more about bragging rights for gamers, than any real-world performance benefit. Not to say these drives don't have their niche (they very much do), just that it's not in your ordinary consumer desktop.

How much of a difference does the DDR800 ram make over the DDR667?

Again, very minor possible improvements, where you have a system that is pushed to the edge. Normally, far better to buy more lower-speed RAM than less of the hi-zoot stuff. Without artificial benchmarks, the user would never see any difference.

should i look to get 512 MB card or stick with the 256Mb?

While 512Mb is almost essential if you're playing at extremely high resolutions, if your monitor doesn't support those top resolutions, 256Mb will do fine. I'd try to squeeze a few extra shekels out of the budget and opt for a card with a better core than the 7600GT you're considering. For not too much more money, you might look at a 7900GS, an x1800GT/GTO2, or even an x1900GT. The GPU core power is more important for high frame rates at low/medium/high resolutions than RAM, only at very high resolutions does RAM become a big factor. But manufacturers market their wares with numbers that "Joe Consumer" understands, and bigger RAM numbers must mean more performance, right? So you'll often see cards, like your 7600GT, offered with 512Mb of RAM - but that core will start to run out of steam before the extra RAM can prove to be beneficial. After all, it takes lots and lots of GPU horsepower to manipulate all those textures, when you're manipulating 1920 x 1280 (or more) worth of data. See an excellent comparo between the 7900GS and x1900XT 256Mb cards here: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2012501,00.asp

On another note: while your AM2 socket Athlon 64 is still a good choice (and was a great choice a few weeks ago), it really looks like the Conroe cores are the way to go right now, even in a fairly modestly priced machine. Here's a good article over at Anandtech outlining just such a budget system: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2830&p=1

P.S. TechReport has a good article on the new GeForce 7950GT, which they contrast with the Radeon 1900XT 256Mb and other cards. See here: http://techreport.com/reviews/2006q3...t/index.x?pg=1

[Leftenant Moley]

Well heres on from Komplett for 1080(getting a bit much now, still can afford)
the hard drive has been downed to 7200rpm, ram is 800Mhz(was only 7 notes more expensive than the 677 same make up 2X 1024) Just using the on board sound is that ok? Probably likes, im using integrated sound on this comp.

Corsair TWIN2X 6400 DDR2, 2048MB CL5
NEC DVD-recorder ND-3570 IDE Black OEM
Samsung 19" LCD Syncmaster 920N TCO-99
Logitech X-230 2.1, 2 Satellites and
Norman IC, 1 year license Virus Control
PC box
SoftThinks Installation/Recovery
Trust Slimline Keyboard, Black, UK,
Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB SATA2
Trust Ami Mouse 250S Optical
Gigabyte Poseidon GZ-XA1CA-STB Black
OCZ Technology Powersupply ATX 450W
Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz Socket
Microsoft Windows XP Home SP2b
MSI P965 NEO-F, P965, Socket-775, ATX,
Point of View GeForce 7900GT 256MB,
Sony Floppy Drive, 3,5" 1,44MB Black,

one last Question. Will this run Medieval 2?

[DukeofSerbia]

@Leftenant Moley

I plan to sell my computer and build the new one. I just don’t know will I buy desktop replacement notebook or the new powerful classic desktop. If I buy the new desktop, I will make its from the next components:

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (1.86 GHz)
Motherboard: ASUS P5B (I don’t have money for Deluxe version)
Memory: Corsair 2 GB (2*1 GB kit) DDR2 XMS2-5400-C4 TwinX (667 MHz)
Hard disk: Samsung SpinPoint P SP 2504C SATA II (or Western Digital 2500KS Caviar SE16 SATA II)
DVD-writer: NEC ND-4570A
Combo drive: LG Combo Drive IDE GCC-4522 OEM
Graphics card: HIS Radeon X1900GT IceQ 256MB GDDR3
Monitor: BenQ FP93G X (or Hanns-G HW 191DPB which is attainable in Serbia, too bad – it is nor pure gaming monitor like BenQ but it has widescreen model which is better for watching movies)
Case: Don’t know yet but it has to have good cooling (at least two fans).
Power Supply: Seasonic S12 500W Silent SLi ATX 2.0 (unfortunately this model is not attainable in Serbia, so my alternative then is OCZ Powerstream 520W ATX 2.0)
Keyboard: Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000
Mouse: Included with keyboard (Microsoft IntelliMouse)

Why this configuration?

1. Core 2 Duo E6300 can be easily overclocked to 3 GHz with Intel retail air cooler. Core 2 Duo is the best processor (AMD X2 is wiped out). There is no need for the faster and more expansive Core 2 Duo processor.
2. ASUS P5B (especially Deluxe model) allows you insane overclocking capabilities with processor and memory.
3. Corsair XMS2-5400-C4 allows you great overclocking capabilities.
4. I will buy two optical drives: NEC for writing DVD’s and LG for everything else. Why? DVD-writers are weak readers (I know from my and my friend’s experiences) and if you use DVD-writer mainly for reading then laser will became faster useless.
5. Why only Radeon X1900GT and not XT version or GeForce 7900GT? This card has lower price than GeForce 7900GT and has the same or better performances. Radeons of X1K series can use both AA and HDR which nVidia’s cards can’t. And cooler on GeForce 7900GT is noisy and pretty annoying. Every game can be played in 1280*1024 with full settings (except Oblivion, but I don’t like that game anyway) which is native resolution of BenQ monitor.
6. Why HIS? Sapphire Radeon X1900GT has lower price than HIS model, but Sapphire model is hot (I mean extremely hot) because it use default cooling system. HIS use IceQ3 cooling (it seems that ATI copied that cooling system and put on Radeon X1950XTX) which is far away better and with it card can be overclocked as X1900GT come with faster memory than on actually work.
7. Why should I pay for Samsung SyncMaster 940BF (probably the best gaming monitor in market) when BenQ FP93G X perform the same for much less money?
8. Seasonic S12 series is one of the best power supplies in market (many PSUs in market are de facto Seasonic OEM).

And I almost forget: on this configuration Vista will be run easily (especially without Aero) plus Medieval II Total War.

I hope it helped.

[DukeofSerbia]

AMD(sempro, athlon, etc which is faster) or Intel(Pentium...not celeron cus its slower) ?

Intel Core 2 Duo is the fastest PC CPU without any doubt.

And what about the graphics card? Is Radeon X1600XT better than Geforce 7600GT? Will 256MB do I should I look at 512?

Radeon X1600XT is overpriced junk card. GeForce 7600GT beat its easily. That's why ATI almost revoked X1600XT.

Which operating system for games? Home or pro (sp2)

XP Pro with SP2 off course.

Also what do you think of this system I made on vantage computers (ever heard of them? Any good?) Anything here that’s overkill or underpowered? Apparently they will build for £840 which is nice cus im only wanting to spend £900( however I flexible)

Never heard.

[DukeofSerbia]

Which operating system for games? WinXP Home or pro (sp2)

Answered.

Why does AMD perform better than intel even although the clock frequencies are lower? how do i check if my AMD processor is sufficient for future games. Because on the boxes it just states Processor 2Ghz Required etc and AMD clock frequencies are way lower than Intel(It seems the AMD 64-Bit Dual Core X2 4200+ has a clock frequency of 2.2Ghz yet preforms better than Intel 3.4Ghz)

Prescott series of Pentium 4 is the worst processor ever made by Intel. That is why Athlons are faster and better than Prescotts. But the new Core 2 Duo changed everything.
About AMD Athlon64 X2 - they have enough power for the new games as they have two cores.

Does the hard drive of 10000rpm matter for playing games? or can i save notes by selecting the 7200rpm one?

If you have money then you buy WD Raptor 36 GB on 10,000rpm and on Rapror install Win XP Pro SP2 and other, larger hd on 7200rpm use for evrything else.
Those 10,000rpm models are only worth for video editing when you put them in RAID as video editing demand fast hdd system.

How much of a difference does the DDR800 ram make over the DDR667?

Not much. It is important for overclocking.

should i look to get 512 MB card or stick with the 256Mb?

Depend on which model.

[Leftenant Moley]

Thanks Duke, your comments on the XP pro is duly noted. I hear a lot of people claiming they use XP pro yet no one has recommended it over home yet.

[Geezer57]

Point of View GeForce 7900GT 256MB,

MSI P965 NEO-F, P965, Socket-775, ATX,

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 2.4GHz Socket

Leftenant, all your choices look acceptable and should make a very good system. If it were for me, I'd try (while staying within budget) to make a couple of small changes.
Like the Duke said, you can get better image quality if you opt for a Radeon x1900 series GPU. I disagree with him on the x1900GT (especially it's being faster than the 7900GT - in most game tests in that Tech Report review I linked in my last post, just the opposite was true). I'm waiting for the price to drop a little bit more to jump on an x1950GT, but if I couldn't find that extra money, I'd choose a quality x1900XT with a non-reference cooling solution (like the HIS Hightech H190XTQ512DVN Radeon X1900XT) instead.

If you want to stick with NVidia, you're better served picking a 7900GS (256Mb) at the lower price point, or a 7950GT (512Mb) if more funds are available. The 7900GS just about matches the 7900GT, for a good bit less money - the 7950GT definitely outperforms the 7900GT, for little or no extra cash.

Switching subjects now - let's look at motherboards. Your MSI choice has one dominating factor - low price. Other than that, it doesn't offer much else. It's not a particularly good overclocker, and will never support any form of dual-slot GPU capability (SLI or CrossFire). If you want to stick with budget boards, but want a good overclocer, I'd strongly recommend the GIGABYTE GA-965P-S3. It's got a better layout than the MSI, and reports are that it screams happily at very high frequencies.
In my next board purchase, I'm insisting on the ability to support SLI or CrossFire, even if I don't start out with two graphics cards. That way, I can start out with one GPU when new, then upgrade later to a 2nd GPU (after prices have dropped) for a mid-life refresh.
If you'd like that option also, and were going NVidia SLI at some time, you might consider the ASUS P5NSLI as a budget board - it's only a little higher in price than the MSI. It uses the nForce 570 SLI northbridge chip, which gives you SLI with two PCIe graphics cards in x8 mode. Not as great as x16 mode, but very little difference in the real world.
If you want CrossFire (as I do), the least expensive (after rebate) mobo with a decent reputation appears to be the Foxconn 975X7AA-8EKRS2H. Many features with good performance from a manufacturer not previously known for enthusist type boards, so the latest "tweaks" from the maker may not come quite as quickly. The best CrossFire gamer's option right now seems to be the ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP, but you'll pay a premium for it (if you can find one). All the mobo manufacturers are working on new products, so there'll be better choices in the near future.

If the budget can't be bent to include better graphics and a mobo with later dual-slot GPU capability, you might seriously consider downgrading from the E6600 processor to a E6400 or E6300. Giving up the extra cache for enough money to upgrade the graphics and mobo is a trade well worth doing, as game performance is much more often limited by the GPU rather than the CPU. And with overclocking, your cheaper processor might just end up outrunning the more expensive one.

one last Question. Will this run Medieval 2?

Well, your current machine will probably "run" Medieval 2, just maybe not quite like you'd want. So something like what's been proposed will definitely do it better.

EDIT: P.S. There's a review of the new ASUS ASUS P5W64 WS Professional motherboard over at Hexus (a very nice UK website) that's just gotten me drooling like an idiot - four PCIe graphics cards running simultaneously! And it overclocks like crazy! How about a nice 8-panel display setup, anyone? See here: http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=6635&page=1

[DukeofSerbia]

More more news:
Graphics card: If you can find Radeon X1900XT with 256 MB GDDR3 for around 150 pounds buy it. Sapphire model of Radeon X1900XT with 256 MB GDDR3 has the lowest price from all ATI vendors/manufacturers. ATI cut off prices two days ago and now Radeon X1900GT is not any more worth for buying. Not to mention how much more powerful is X1900XT. X1900XT with 256 easily beat new GeForce 7950GT model, not to mention 7900GT.

If you want to read tests of the latest graphics cards go here:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2827&p=1 (Fall '06 NVIDIA GPU Refresh - Part I: GeForce 7900 GS)
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2833&p=1 (Fall '06 NVIDIA GPU Refresh - Part II: GeForce 7950 GT and SLI)

From test:

The single 7950 GT card from NVIDIA does not seem to offer a greater immediate return on your investment than its major competitors in the X1900 XT family. First, the X1900 XT 256MB is cheaper than the 7950 GT. Both flavors out perform the 7950 GT in multiple games. Where the 7950 GT does lead the X1900 XT 256MB in a couple cases, it never leads the 512MB version. Obviously, the usual exceptions apply and those shopping with only one particular game in mind may form different conclusions, but in our eyes, the X1900 XT series are still better deals than stock speed 7950 GT parts.

As I plan to buy new computer to the end of november, it will be definitely Sapphire Radeon X1900XT 256 MB GDDR3 as graphics card (if I don’t buy desktop replacement notebook).

256 or 512 MB video memory?
512 MB video memory is only important if you plan to play games in 1600x1200 resolutions or higher (like 1920x1440). As the most 19” LCD monitors have native resolution 1280x1024 so, there is no need to buy card with 512 MB. For higher resolutions you will need 20” or greater model of monitor which is the waste of money except if you are rich.

Motherboard: Also good model for Core 2 Duo in rank of ASUS P5B is Gigabyte GA-965-DS3. In rank of ASUS P5B Deluxe is Gigabyte GA-965-DQ6. The craziest thing about those models is that their owners in various forums have unofficial “war” in claiming which model is better: P5B vs. DS3 and P5B Deluxe vs. DQ6. In fact you can’t be wrong whatever model you buy. Just avoid MSI P965 models.

Hope it helped.

[Ice]

DOS, excellent review man. I'm going to try to convince my parents to "Lend" me a few bucks to help finance a new desktop. I'll probably go for the x1900xt 256 mb after reading your helpful review.

[DukeofSerbia]

DOS, excellent review man. I'm going to try to convince my parents to "Lend" me a few bucks to help finance a new desktop. I'll probably go for the x1900xt 256 mb after reading your helpful review.

Thanks Ice (man). I found something for you in newegg (as you are from USA according to your location): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102051 Sapphire Radeon X1900XT 256 MB GDDR3 for ONLY $240! And from the same vendor, model with 512 MB GDDR3 has price in newegg for ONLY $298! Model with 256 MB (and why not with 512 MB if you had money and good PSU) is absolutely best buy model in market! This card is powerful “monster”. Most games you will play in 1280x1024 with full AA+HDR and AF. And also many games you will play in resolution 1600x1200. The new Catalyst 6.8 pretty much improved performances of new X1K Radeon series, especially models with 256 MB. For the $240 you can buy only nVidia GeForce 7900GS 256 MB and if you looked those tests you see that X1900XT 256 MB is average 50% faster than GeForce 7900GS in most games. Not to mention that any GeForce 7xxx can’t AA+HDR. Plus when AA is enabled ATI is even more better.

[DukeofSerbia]

@Leftenat Moley

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (1.86 GHz)
Motherboard: ASUS P5B or Gigabyte GA-965-DS3
Memory: Corsair 2 GB (2*1 GB kit) DDR2 XMS2-5400-C4 TwinX (667 MHz)
Hard disk: Samsung SpinPoint P SP 2504C SATA II (or Western Digital 2500KS Caviar SE16 SATA II)
DVD-writer: NEC ND-4570A
Combo drive: LG Combo Drive IDE GCC-4522 OEM
Graphics card: Sapphire or Connect3D Radeon X1900XT 256MB GDDR3
Monitor: BenQ FP93G X
Case: Antec SLK3000B Midi Tower
Power Supply: Seasonic S12 500W Silent SLi ATX 2.0
Sound card: integrated Intel HD Audio
Speakers: ?
Keyboard: Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000
Mouse: Included with keyboard (Microsoft IntelliMouse)
OS: Windows XP Pro with SP2

This configuration price is ~ £1100 (roughly with VAT included).

[DukeofSerbia]

Like the Duke said, you can get better image quality if you opt for a Radeon x1900 series GPU. I disagree with him on the x1900GT (especially it's being faster than the 7900GT - in most game tests in that Tech Report review I linked in my last post, just the opposite was true).

With new Catalyst 6.8 X1900GT is faster or has similar performances as 7900GT. I posted links to Anandtech. And those tests are fresh. Not to mention that GeForce 7 series can’t HDR+AA.

I'm waiting for the price to drop a little bit more to jump on an x1950GT, but if I couldn't find that extra money, I'd choose a quality x1900XT with a non-reference cooling solution (like the HIS Hightech H190XTQ512DVN Radeon X1900XT) instead.

There is no card X1950GT. Only X1950XTX. Best buy now is Radeon X1900XT with 256 MB.

If you want to stick with NVidia, you're better served picking a 7900GS (256Mb) at the lower price point, or a 7950GT (512Mb) if more funds are available. The 7900GS just about matches the 7900GT, for a good bit less money - the 7950GT definitely outperforms the 7900GT, for little or no extra cash.

Those cards are not worth for that money. Radeon X1900GT has price as GeForce 7900GS and is a far away faster.

Switching subjects now - let's look at motherboards. Your MSI choice has one dominating factor - low price. Other than that, it doesn't offer much else. It's not a particularly good overclocker, and will never support any form of dual-slot GPU capability (SLI or CrossFire).

I agree 100% about MSI motherboards.

If you want to stick with budget boards, but want a good overclocer, I'd strongly recommend the GIGABYTE GA-965P-S3. It's got a better layout than the MSI, and reports are that it screams happily at very high frequencies.

DS3 cost little more and is better.

In my next board purchase, I'm insisting on the ability to support SLI or CrossFire, even if I don't start out with two graphics cards. That way, I can start out with one GPU when new, then upgrade later to a 2nd GPU (after prices have dropped) for a mid-life refresh.

SLi and CrossFire based systems are waste of money. Why?

1. You need powerful processor.
2. Need very good motherboard with support and they have high price.
3. It only worth for playing games above 1600x1200 resolutions.
4. For playing in those resolutions you need large (over 20”) and quality monitor which cost pretty.
5. SLi and CrossFire are marketing of nVidia and ATI.
6. Need more arguments?

Conclusion: waste of money.

In my next board purchase, I'm insisting on the ability to support SLI or CrossFire, even if I don't start out with two graphics cards. That way, I can start out with one GPU when new, then upgrade later to a 2nd GPU (after prices have dropped) for a mid-life refresh.

Ah, typical marketing of nVidia (ATI lesser use that in promotion) – next year I will sell my old graphics card and buy the new DX10 which will wipe out your SLi or CrossFire based system and your solution will cost you more than mine.
Arguments:
1. SLi/CrossFire motherboards cost more than non SLi/CrossFire models.
2. You need high quality power supply (SLi/CrossFire certified).
3. You need very good case for cooling because of high heat.
4. Plus 5 previous arguments…

Conclusion: it’s not worth except if you can find two GeForce 7900GS cards for $200 and put in SLi. This combination is faster than single Radeon X1950XTX or GeForce 7900GTX and cost less than those two cards but GeForce 7xxx can’t HDR+AA.

[Geezer57]

With new Catalyst 6.8 X1900GT is faster or has similar performances as 7900GT. I posted links to Anandtech. And those tests are fresh. Not to mention that GeForce 7 series can’t HDR+AA.

Hmmm, I just reviewed that Anandtech article - they had the 7900GT ahead of the x1900GT in Battlefield 2 and Black & White, behind in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, tied in F.E.A.R., just ahead in Half-Life 2: Episode One, behind again in Quake 4, and tied again in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. Sound like pretty much a wash, with maybe a slight edge in frame rate for the 7900GT (and we both know the x1900's, as long as the frame rates don't suck, produce better image quality). Looks to me like either would be an acceptable choice, depending on the customer's preferences.

There is no card X1950GT. Only X1950XTX. Best buy now is Radeon X1900XT with 256 MB.

Ahh, the dangers of fast typing while not paying attention. Yep, that should be x1950XTX.

Those cards are not worth for that money. Radeon X1900GT has price as GeForce 7900GS and is a far away faster.

Your opinion is valid, for you. But allow me to disagree, for some situations. What's "worth the money" is often subjective, and up to the buyer.

I agree 100% about MSI motherboards.

Yea!!

DS3 cost little more and is better.

I haven't been following Gigabyte that closely - what are the differences between the -S3 and the -DS3, etc.?

SLi and CrossFire based systems are waste of money. Why?

1. You need powerful processor.
2. Need very good motherboard with support and they have high price.
3. It only worth for playing games above 1600x1200 resolutions.
4. For playing in those resolutions you need large (over 20”) and quality monitor which cost pretty.
5. SLi and CrossFire are marketing of nVidia and ATI.
6. Need more arguments?

Conclusion: waste of money.

You're certainly right in that these types of dual GPU systems don't have high returns relative to the costs (and potential tripfalls) involved. But there's a certain "new toy" appeal to them, yes?

Ah, typical marketing of nVidia (ATI lesser use that in promotion) – next year I will sell my old graphics card and buy the new DX10 which will wipe out your SLi or CrossFire based system and your solution will cost you more than mine.
Arguments:
1. SLi/CrossFire motherboards cost more than non SLi/CrossFire models.
2. You need high quality power supply (SLi/CrossFire certified).
3. You need very good case for cooling because of high heat.
4. Plus 5 previous arguments…

Conclusion: it’s not worth except if you can find two GeForce 7900GS cards for $200 and put in SLi. This combination is faster than single Radeon X1950XTX or GeForce 7900GTX and cost less than those two cards but GeForce 7xxx can’t HDR+AA.

The 7900GS cards are really in the sweet spot for graphics cards right now, as we both well know. I think your argument carries much weight, but that there will be some folks who're willing to spend extra for that little bit of extra benefit derived.

When I was writing my original post, I'd just finished reading on of those "Gee whiz!" articles, and was waxing enthusiastic at the time. Keep up your infomative posts! Cheers!

<EDIT> P.S. There's great article over at [H]ardOCP on the 7950GT vs. x1900XT 256Mb - it has some surprising findings, and mostly supports your opinions. See here: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==

[DukeofSerbia]

@ Geezer57

nVidia is large company with the best marketing after Intel. SLI is example of that. ATI is not good in marketing as nVidia.

Calculation – SLI system:
1. More expensive SLI motherboard with good layout
2. Pretty powerful PSU (SLI certified to be sure)
3. Bigger case with good airflow as two cards produce great heat

Calculation II:
We both buy graphics card for $200. You buy GeForce 7900GS and me Radeon X1900GT. My card is faster than yours and in start you paid more because of SLI motherboard, SLI PSU and expansive case. You will buy another GeForce 7900GS to power up your system for $100 one year later. I will sell my card for $100 and add $100 to buy new DX10 graphics which will be faster than your SLI system.

Think about that. SLI in theory (of marketing) sounds good but reality is something else.

P.S.
Great test on that site. And the winner is X1900XT 256mb.

[Leftenant Moley]

@Leftenat Moley

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (1.86 GHz)
Motherboard: ASUS P5B or Gigabyte GA-965-DS3
Memory: Corsair 2 GB (2*1 GB kit) DDR2 XMS2-5400-C4 TwinX (667 MHz)
Hard disk: Samsung SpinPoint P SP 2504C SATA II (or Western Digital 2500KS Caviar SE16 SATA II)
DVD-writer: NEC ND-4570A
Combo drive: LG Combo Drive IDE GCC-4522 OEM
Graphics card: Sapphire or Connect3D Radeon X1900XT 256MB GDDR3
Monitor: BenQ FP93G X
Case: Antec SLK3000B Midi Tower
Power Supply: Seasonic S12 500W Silent SLi ATX 2.0
Sound card: integrated Intel HD Audio
Speakers: ?
Keyboard: Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000
Mouse: Included with keyboard (Microsoft IntelliMouse)
OS: Windows XP Pro with SP2

This configuration price is ~ £1100 (roughly with VAT included).

Nice. Is that from Komplett?

[Geezer57]

P.S. Great test on that site. And the winner is X1900XT 256mb.

Glad you liked the link, Duke. I find these discussions very stimulating - if I didn't enjoy them so much, I wouldn't keep butting in! BTW, I'm really looking hard at an x1900XT 256Mb - soon, if the budget allows. Cheers!

[DukeofSerbia]

Nice. Is that from Komplett?

What is Komplett?


If you preffer AMD (like me), than my choise is:

Processor: AMD Athlon64 X2 3800+ AM2*
Motherboard: Foxconn C51XEA01-8EKRS2H (nForce590 SLI)

*it will easy overclock to 2.6 GHz without any problem (with luck up to 2.9 GHz with is faster than FX-62)

[DukeofSerbia]

Glad you liked the link, Duke. I find these discussions very stimulating - if I didn't enjoy them so much, I wouldn't keep butting in! BTW, I'm really looking hard at an x1900XT 256Mb - soon, if the budget allows. Cheers!

But be carefull about PSU. X1900XT even with 256mb is power hungry beast.

[Leftenant Moley]

What is Komplett?


But be carefull about PSU. X1900XT even with 256mb is power hungry beast.

Komplett is a website that allows you to customize your comps right down to the motherboard.

So does vatanage computers but they havent been recommend yet

i assume 400W PSU would be okay cus nvidia recommend 350 for their cards.

In Regards to AMD, Amandtech say intel duo core 2 take less power and make less noise and is slighty faster



Update comp - &#163;963.75

Corsair TWIN2X 6400 DDR2, 2048MB CL5
NEC DVD-recorder ND-3570 IDE Black OEM
Samsung 19" LCD Syncmaster 920N TCO-99
Logitech X-230 2.1, 2 Satellites and
Norman IC, 1 year license Virus Control
PC box
SoftThinks Installation/Recovery
Trust Compact Keyboard KB-1120,
Samsung SpinPoint P120S 250GB SATA2
Trust Ami Mouse 250S Optical
Fortron/Source Powersupply ATX 400W
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 2.13GHz Socket
Microsoft Windows XP Professional SP2
Gigabyte Poseidon GZ-XA1CA-STB Black
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3, P965, Socket-775,
Sapphire Radeon X1900XT 256MB GDDR3,


Am I learning yet?

[Geezer57]

Looks like a sweet system to me - lot's of performance on a reasonable budget!

[DukeofSerbia]

Am I learning yet?

No. I am really.

I will look at komplett.co.uk and type what is best for me up to £1000, off course.

[Leftenant Moley]

No. I am really.

I will look at komplett.co.uk and type what is best for me up to &#163;1000, off course.

cool. Though the saphire X1900XT for 180 is temporary out of stock

[DukeofSerbia]

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3
Corsair TWIN2X2048-5400C4 2GB (2x1GB Kit) DDR2-675 XMS2-5400
Western Digital Caviar SE16 250 GB SATA2 (2500KS model)
Gigabyte 7600GT 256MB GDDR3 Silent Pipe (GV-NX76T256D-RH model)*
BenQ 19” LCD FP93GX
Cooler Master Centurion 5 black
Chieftec CFT-560-A12C (560W PSU)

~£950

Find speakers, mice and keyboard.

*This card has enough power. DX10 cards will come soon (several months), and they will be much faster and the old DX9c cards will have lower price. Option two is Sapphire Radeon X1900XT 256MB GDDR3 (+£64).

[JR-]

LN13548 Samsung SH-W163A/BEBN Black SATA 16x16 ±R Dual Layer DVDRW Writer OEM UK inc Nero 6.x £23.72
LN14162 320 Gb Seagate ST3320620AS Barracuda 7200.10, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 16MB Cache, 8.5 ms, NCQ £66.81
LN13758 Silverstone SST-TJ08B "TEMJIN" uATX aluminium tower chassis, black £60.98
LN15048 Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 775, 2.13 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, Allendale Core, 2MB Cache, Retail £153.91
LN15668 256MB Leadtek 7950GT, PCI-E (x16), Mem 1400 MHz, GPU 550 MHz, 24 Pipes, 2xDual Link DVI-I/HDTV £170.01
LN10408 1Gb (2X512Mb) Corsair TwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC6400 (800), 240 Pin, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 5-5-5-15 £98.28
LN15488 19" Hyundai IT N91W, Widescreen, Black TFT, 1440x900, 8 ms, 800:1, 300 cd/m2, DVI, Speakers £151.09
LN11944 380W Seasonic S12-380 aPFC Hi-End PSU £37.59
LN12008 Logitech X530 5.1 Speaker System 71W RMS - PC/DVD/PS2/XBox Ready £44.23
LN15500 Asus P5B-VM iG965, S775, PCI-E (x16), DDR2 533/667/800, SATA II, SATA RAID, uATX, On Board VGA £87.63

Net Total £761.07
Carriage £24.10
V.A.T. £137.41
TOTAL £922.58

[Leftenant Moley]

How much power should My PSU have? do you know how much the 7900GT or the X1900XT needs?

just found out that 790GT needs 400W think i'll upgrade to 450W PSU

[doc_bean]

How much power should My PSU have? do you know how much the 7900GT or the X1900XT needs?

just found out that 790GT needs 400W think i'll upgrade to 450W PSU

450 is best I believe.