CA please read MP solution

[Puzz3D]

a MP era with units different than SP and with slow speed/kill rate and good balanc.

There will be multiple eras for MP which will help, and supposedly the speed/killrate has been reduced, although we don't know by how much. I think you'd need about a 30% reduction in running speeds (walking speed in RTW/BI is ok), and probably more than that in killrate. The combat resolution time should range between about 30 seconds for two fast killing units to about 180 seconds for two slow killing units. Average killrate units would be about halfway between that at about 105 seconds when matched. The idea is have enough time to control the units independently at the height of the battle if you are very good at managing them, allow for two weaker infantry units to beat a stronger unit by executing a hammer and anvil tactic with the two weaker units, allow for spreading out the army to set up angles of attack and also allow allied armies in team games a chance to carry out a large scale hammer and anvil strategy if they are not too far apart. You want to allow the possibility for the armies to be too far apart as you do also for individual units to be too far away to assist another unit. I call these dynamic balancing issues.

Unfortunately, if the "squeezed too tight" combat penalty is not reinstated, MP is going to be adversely affected to a significant degree even if the speed/killrates are substantially improved.

[Nobunaga]

Originally Posted by Puzz3D
There will be multiple eras for MP which will help, and supposedly the speed/killrate has been reduced, although we don't know by how much. I think you'd need about a 30% reduction in running speeds (walking speed in RTW/BI is ok), and probably more than that in killrate. The combat resolution time should range between about 30 seconds for two fast killing units to about 180 seconds for two slow killing units. Average killrate units would be about halfway between that at about 105 seconds when matched. The idea is have enough time to control the units independently at the height of the battle if you are very good at managing them, allow for two weaker infantry units to beat a stronger unit by executing a hammer and anvil tactic with the two weaker units, allow for spreading out the army to set up angles of attack and also allow allied armies in team games a chance to carry out a large scale hammer and anvil strategy if they are not too far apart. You want to allow the possibility for the armies to be too far apart as you do also for individual units to be too far away to assist another unit. I call these dynamic balancing issues.

Unfortunately, if the "squeezed too tight" combat penalty is not reinstated, MP is going to be adversely affected to a significant degree even if the speed/killrates are substantially improved.

am also concerned about unit and faction balance. And with more than 20 factions and hundreds of units I think balance is not possible due to time constraints.

a MP era with its own (one to three max) factions and limited yet diverse units is much easier to balance and is not affected by SP issues.

[Nobunaga]

Originally Posted by A. Smith
Why would you want new units? the armies fielded by eac country will be accurately (or at least somewhat accurately) displayed in the SP game, and there wont be much choice left for new units. instead of knights, do you want "horseman-withlances-and-swords-wearing-heavy-armor"?

Actually I want MP era with MP factions (one to three faction max). It is impossible to fully balance more than 20 factions containing hundreds of units without turning many units useless. Thus MP factions with limited but diverse units can provide a much better MP experience and will take less time to balance. And a MP era with MP factions can be made with no consideration to SP issues and SP balance.

[x-dANGEr]

I hate to go into the balance discussion about RTW MP a loads of times, but I tell you that each unit has got a counter. Simple.

[Puzz3D]

am also concerned about unit and faction balance. And with more than 20 factions and hundreds of units I think balance is not possible due to time constraints. a MP era with its own (one to three max) factions and limited yet diverse units is much easier to balance and is not affected by SP issues.

You're right, but an MP era with a limited unit set and only 3 factions will never happen. We've been asking CA for this for 5 years, and instead we've gotten an ever increasing number of unit types and factions. It's completely out of control now, and has a momentum which keeps things moving in the direction of ever increasing numbers of units and factions. The best you'll be able to do with M2TW MP is to play with player imposed rules to eliminate unbalanced units and factions.

However, we have what you're asking for in Samurai Wars for MTW/VI v2.01. We have 14 units types from which all players choose their army, and this unit set is completely separate from the SP unit set. We balanced those 14 units in such a way that unit purchase rules are unnecessary, upgrades are unnecessary due to adequate morale and the standard money level used ensures that armies aren't composed of mostly elite units. Each basic component of the RPS has two unit types except for the highly defensive naginata unit, so it is possible to field armies strong in one particular component without incuring the cost penalty imposed on more than 4 of one type. In anycase, combined arms is necessary so armies composed of all one unit type wouldn't work well anyway. Color differentiation of armies is outstanding with the sashimo on each man's back, and the men are easily distinguished against the ground textures. Samurai Wars has attracted a small but skilled group of players, and it doesn't cost any money if you already own MTW/VI. We only play on Sundays now, but could expand that if interest increases. Development of this mod is ongoing, but the MP unit stats are probably final now or very close to final, and have been developed and MP tested over the last 2 years with the assistance of many top players from STW/MTW.

[rios]

Having lot of different and unbalanced factions means there will be some with above average unit combinations, and majority of the MP population might choose to only play these elite factions. But as long as these factions are balanced compared to each other, games will be balanced as these are actually the better ones
The difference is, in a moded scenario, there's no other options besides playing the few "balanced" pre choosen elite factions. There were always people playing the seemly less effective factions and did well, important thing is leaving the room for players to excercise that option.

And one thing I've always hated about MP moding. You are spliting the community. It takes a sizable pool of MP players for the good ones to actually distinguish themselves and establish competition within the community. Why attempt to split the population to different mod pools before the game even release? What's the point of playing a war game where there's little or no competition?

[Puzz3D]

Having lot of different and unbalanced factions means there will be some with above average unit combinations, and majority of the MP population might choose to only play these elite factions. But as long as these factions are balanced compared to each other, games will be balanced as these are actually the better ones.

Unfortunately, the option in MTW of chosing the same faction more than once has been lost. This means you need a minimum of 8 factions that are very well balanced relative to each other.

The difference is, in a moded scenario, there's no other options besides playing the few "balanced" pre choosen elite factions. There were always people playing the seemly less effective factions and did well, important thing is leaving the room for players to excercise that option.

The factions in Samurai Wars are automatically balanced because they all contain the same unit set. If you want to play with a handicap, you can play with less money since attacker and defender money is set separately (another lost feature in the new "improved" game).

You can play an inferior faction and do well if the skill differential over your opponent compensates for the inherent deficiency of the faction. It's the same for maps where the defender has a height advantage. In high level competitive play, you see flat maps being used because the skill differential of the players is not great. Likewise, you need very wel balanced factions for competitive play.

And one thing I've always hated about MP moding. You are spliting the community. It takes a sizable pool of MP players for the good ones to actually distinguish themselves and establish competition within the community. Why attempt to split the population to different mod pools before the game even release? What's the point of playing a war game where there's little or no competition?

For years we worked with Creative Assembly to improve balance in MP. However, Rome was a parting of the ways. Droves of top players stopped playing Total War multiplayer because the quality of the gameplay dropped below a tolerable level. I didn't quit right away. I spent months on the RTW v1.2 beta team as did about a dozen other top MTW players. It became clear during that time that Creative Assembly was less interested in playbalance than they had been in the past. They started using the label "hardcore" as a reason for not implimenting playbalance suggestions. It's only since then that I decided to pursue a mod solution for MP. I use the MTW/VI engine because it is the better engine, and it isn't possible to bring the RTW/BI engine up to it's level. You can't do it with a mod, and I don't envision CA doing it with M2TW. I don't advocate modding RTW/BI or M2TW for MP. I consider it a waste of time.

Samurai Wars doesn't cost you anything if you already own MTW/VI. Alternatively, you can purchase M2TW for $50 usd and spend time finding out that the gameplay is ultimatly unrewarding. I already went through that with RTW, and I don't want to go through it again.

[rios]

Unfortunately, the option in MTW of chosing the same faction more than once has been lost. This means you need a minimum of 8 factions that are very well balanced relative to each other.

There will be several european factions that are similar to each other, and allowing limited repetitive representations of these factions in a MP game might be easier solution to pursue than a general balance between all avaliable factions.

You can play an inferior faction and do well if the skill differential over your opponent compensates for the inherent deficiency of the faction. It's the same for maps where the defender has a height advantage. In high level competitive play, you see flat maps being used because the skill differential of the players is not great. Likewise, you need very wel balanced factions for competitive play.

Map conditions is an entirely different concept. My opinions here are strictly limited to the more usual european flat terrains. Players don't always think alike. While most probably are confined to the 'traditional' styles of playing, some are better suited to 'unorthodox' arrangement and maneuvers. Any unique quality of a faction can have very diverse impacts in different hands, and to categorize them as deficiencies or compensations would be unfair for some.

For years we worked with Creative Assembly to improve balance in MP. However, Rome was a parting of the ways. Droves of top players stopped playing Total War multiplayer because the quality of the gameplay dropped below a tolerable level. I didn't quit right away. I spent months on the RTW v1.2 beta team as did about a dozen other top MTW players. It became clear during that time that Creative Assembly was less interested in playbalance than they had been in the past. They started using the label "hardcore" as a reason for not implimenting playbalance suggestions. It's only since then that I decided to pursue a mod solution for MP. I use the MTW/VI engine because it is the better engine, and it isn't possible to bring the RTW/BI engine up to it's level. You can't do it with a mod, and I don't envision CA doing it with M2TW. I don't advocate modding RTW/BI or M2TW for MP. I consider it a waste of time.

Rome's control is dull, or handicaped if you like, but that's not the main reason for players' departures. Many of us thought it was unfair to eliminate the advantages we've accumulated from refining works done on our controls through the STW -> VI period. There was room to tame the RTW system, just that we weren't willing enough.
I'm not a modders, unwilling to play scenarios unsupported by publishers, I went experiencing other games like many of my friends. 2 years gone by, and you know what, we didn't find a better game. SImply put, Totalwar serie are the only games gave us the adrenaline rush we had so longed for. So we're willing to relearn the controls and play medieval2 MP, hopefully you and your friends are willing to join us, yuuki.

[L'Impresario]

I'm not a modders, unwilling to play scenarios unsupported by publishers, I went experiencing other games like many of my friends.

IMO this one was of the problems mods faced extensively over the years. Quite a few people think that the developers (publishers wouldn't have a clue heh) know better how to finetune their game and the "official" version is how the game is meant to be played. Well, in a perfect world with no deadlines and full of people willing to invest some real effort and time into the stats, then that 'd be probably true;)

[Puzz3D]

There will be several european factions that are similar to each other, and allowing limited repetitive representations of these factions in a MP game might be easier solution to pursue than a general balance between all avaliable factions.

LongJohn said that he considered 25% imbalance acceptable. Well I saw what good players could do with the warrior monks of STW, and they were only 15% out of balance. I don't think 25% imbalance is acceptable for competitive play. Possibly, several factions will be similar enough in M2TW that they will be automatically balanced, but that I think it's unlikely there will be 8 such factions.

Map conditions is an entirely different concept. My opinions here are strictly limited to the more usual european flat terrains. Players don't always think alike. While most probably are confined to the 'traditional' styles of playing, some are better suited to 'unorthodox' arrangement and maneuvers. Any unique quality of a faction can have very diverse impacts in different hands, and to categorize them as deficiencies or compensations would be unfair for some.

You're assuming that the factions are balanced, so that it's only a matter of learning how to use the faction properly. I'm talking about faction deficiencies that can only be compensated for by superior skill. RTW/BI has such deficiencies, and MTW/VI had them as well.

Rome's control is dull, or handicaped if you like, but that's not the main reason for players' departures. Many of us thought it was unfair to eliminate the advantages we've accumulated from refining works done on our controls through the STW -> VI period. There was room to tame the RTW system, just that we weren't willing enough.
I'm not a modders, unwilling to play scenarios unsupported by publishers, I went experiencing other games like many of my friends. 2 years gone by, and you know what, we didn't find a better game. SImply put, Totalwar serie are the only games gave us the adrenaline rush we had so longed for. So we're willing to relearn the controls and play medieval2 MP, hopefully you and your friends are willing to join us, yuuki.

It's not simply a matter of the controls. You have players stacking units to make super units and using them to smashing players who don't stack. You also have the problem of things happening too fast to allow controlling 20 units individually. I can play RTW/BI if I only use 3 or 4 groups. Why should I play that game when I can play a better game such as Samurai Wars?

I've had enough of my time wasted by RTW/BI. Creative Assembly set the standard for Total War multiplayer gameplay with their first game, and they haven't maintained it notwithstanding the marketing rhetoric which is constantly calling it "improved".