Blackhole economics, escaping massive debt, my apologies, long post

[gaijinalways]

I was surprised in my recent English GA campaign. I was romping along with a good chunk of the map, across southern Europe and a good chunk of the desert plains through to Tripoli. Then I found myself separated at Croatia (had a thin link through from Britany to Venice to Constanople and beyond after I kicked the Byz and the Eggys out)) and my high influence king died off and a new king reemerged out East while at the same time the Spanish broke a treaty and attacked my navy.

Suddenly, I drop from a comfortable income to being massively in the hole. I manage to fight back, droppping 4 provinces due to rebellion ( Mercia, Provance, Britany, and Champagne). All of them keep rebelling with loyalists, so I think it's a matter of time before I can retake them. Then the Argonese remerge in Aquitane.

Now, I accidentally get excommed as I forgot the pope warned me not to fight (he means stop holing up in the castle in Aquitane). But I am looking at some ripe pope lands, and figuring, hey why not take the pope down a few pegs, I'll lose some men (lower my costs), raze his buildings, and keep attacking the Spanish for a bit longer, until I have exacted and vanguished their navy (nearly there, now if I can only destroy all their ports and shipbuilding capacity, I'll really be gold).

My question is , when you suddenly go in the hole, how do you get out? Before the last redo bit part, I was some 6k in the hole, with big expenses (maybe close to 4k yearly), so redoing my empire by wacking the Spanish will be helpful (both ends as the Spanish expanded across wiping out the Alomonds and the Eggys).

Any other suggestions, beyond the usual restoring my trade, reducing the mercs (who gladly sacrifise themselves to ensure my victories, if not there is always the reload menu ), and cutting the fat off lands I take over (also possibly razing my own to release some troops for outward conquering)?

I also already manage my own rents as I find I can do better than the AI automanaging can. Also manage to shuffle some peasants around when it helps keep the peace and some money flowing in. I almost wonder, should put my no stars king in a few battles (may be tough, some good AI generals about in I think it's 1222)? Of course I would build where he is (now settled back west in Genoa, but since I have no cash, I as yet can't build anything.

I think I plan to keep hacking the Spanish down and taking some buildings while keeping my borders intact. They still have a decent amount of troops, though I notice they tend to be a bit short on missile types, so if I can delay contact, I am usually okay a s my later all out charges go aganist slightly depleted and demoralized troops. If I can damage their more productive provinces the resulting cash flow will be a big boon. I can ignore the HRE at the moment as they were severely damaged when they refused my constant offers of peace. Poland is weak, the Byz damaged, and the Danish/scandanavians are growing, though still not that big yet (the HRE and the BYz are my buffers at the moment.

Eventually my cash position should improve, but just looking for any short cuts that might help. I know I could also sacrifise some of my own buildings that I don't use in certain provinces, though I don't know if the resulting savings make it worth while.

So any ideas out of the economic hole that you have tried or tested? My tech is good, plenty of troops, though my turf is a large area. Believe I am still ahead on GA points after a few crusades (still have 2 markers ready and waiting) and all the territory I took. That's also another idea, give up spme ground that I raze my buildings out east and take the released troops aganist the Danes/Scandanaians? Maybe another possibility after I finish hassling the Spanish.

[highlanddave]

even though you are thinking of trying to improve your king by using him as a general i would not do it. when the king is used as a general it automatically calculates him as the max distance to his provinces. if you are really large like it appears, that could lead to rebellion or even civil war if he loses a battle or two. i would keep him centered in your kingdom and in a port province. that way he is maximized closeness to your provinces when connected by fleets.

i would concentrate on getting your kings influence high by winning battles.

i would disband as many mercenaries as possible, maybe back out of low paying provinces such as scotland that also need big garrisons, etc. and concentrate on trade. when you let some provinces rebel and then take them back you get money for capturing the prisoners and get experience for your general and somewhat improve the kings influence.

see the econ 101 thread, too:https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=32726

[macsen rufus]

Depends on how many mercs you have handy, but a route to quick cash if you can see a way is generally to throw a BIG army at an enemy king. If he can't win he'll abandon the province rather than hole up. Raze the province for cash, then retreat with the winnings. If you can't afford to train new troops, now might be a good time to "rationalise" your training provinces. Keep the really good teched up ones and your valour bonus provinces should be stripped down to produce ONLY the "bonus" troop type. How's your navy? If you have control of the seas deploy the ships for max trade benefit and "loyalty links". If you don't have full control, hit enemy navy ASAP so you do have I agree the time is probably ripe for you to help yourself to some of the Pope's baubles. If you're excommed already, what do you have to lose? Of course, assasinating the Pope to get re-commed would help your loyalty levels and free up forces to use elsewhere.

Whatever you decide, you'll be able to look back and say "that was an INTERESTING period in the Empire's history"

Also as highlanddave says, it's probably a bad time to send the king into battle. You can't afford any more loyalty knocks right now. Any besieged allies you can rescue - that's always good for an easy influence boost.

[gaijinalways]

My navy is close to commanding as I am slowly wiping out the few Spanish ships left. I plan to further raid Spanish provinces with buildings (for cash), but also to take down harbors and shipyards. Right now I am trading with very few nations by sea as the Spanish are spread across Africa and the BYz are at war too, and my fleet doesn't go far enough North to trade with the Scandanadians and the Polish (who might not have a seaport anyway), though I could change this to get more access to the Black sea, a little repositioning of my navy after Spain's navy sinks, but I would still like to reach Denmark.

Yes, I am considering dumping some unnecessary buildings for the cash and to cut my support costs. Also, the raiding is useful to cut Spain's chances of annoying me again by ripping though their buildings to stop them from rebuilding a navy, other troops, and giving me cash (from the buildings and possible ransom). I plan to cut the mercs as their numbers dwindle, may even cut some earlier that are small in unit numbers.

Yes, I have some provinces that my loyalists are tieing up the enemy in, as well as the Argonese, who should be recrushed soon enough when they get greedy and attack me from their lone province (the one that I carelessly let excom me when I left my soldiers in the castle too long, but since I won a convincing battle that turn with some 1500 dead out of 2400 versus my 300 or so, I am loath to go back and replay it).

[macsen rufus]

Sounds like your strategy is pretty sound, it's just a matter of slugging through the necessary pools of blood now And I know exactly what you mean about refighting that battle -- a glorious victory is great once, but I also hate re-fighting them. It never quite works out so well the second time....

[gunslinger]

I wouldn't disband mercs or sell buildings. You don't get much cash for buildings anyway. If you want to get rid of mercs, make an army out of them and attack! Even if you lose, you should be able to do some pretty serious damage to the enemy while lowering your own costs.

You can always take those mercs, along with any outdated troops still on your roster, and make them the first line of units for a battle in hilly country. Put out 13 of those kind of units as well as your general, one spear, and one unit of bows. Set up those three units on a hill near the edge, and let the other 13 charge straight up the mountain into the enemy. Try to engage as many enemy as possible (no double teaming or flanking). Your "throwaway units will rout soon enough, and the enemy units will then tire out while chasing them all over them map, while "eliminating" some of your overhead for you. As your units rout off, you bring in your "keeper" units from the reserve and line them up on the hill with your general, spears and archers. The enemy units that have been chasing your throwaways will probably now attack your fresh units who are sitting on a hill in a nice defensive formation. After you destroy them, you are free to march your army across the map and mop up the scattered enemies.

You should kill a boatload of enemy units this way while you only lose units that you didn't really want anyway.