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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    thats unfair, Israels army has both a duty, and means to protect civilians, and if they didnt would have huge complaints from its own people....

    many of the civilians in Lebanon would agree with the Hezbollah war, and Hezbollah has no way of evacuating civilians themselves, and so used them to advantage, Israel certainly wasnt picky when choosing targets... Hezbollah let red cross and other aid in to civilians, when Israel at times seemed very hostile
    I don’t even think you realize how crazy your words are. Are you actually defending Hezbos use of civilians as shields?!?! (bolded area in your post)

    Israel was announcing which villages/towns they were coming to; they even dropped flyers on the areas to warn civilians, written in 2 or 3 different languages. The Hezbos wouldn’t allow the citizens to leave and actually setup operations in civilian houses. And of course they allowed Red Cross to enter, they wanted their supplies and in some cases they even traveled in Red Cross vehicles and ambulances to mask their locations and movement from Israel. Hezbos even used old destroyed ambulances to try and fake out the media to sway popular opinion to their side.

    Israel had every right to be hostel; these lunatics kept firing missals at them!

    Condemning Israel’s heavy hand is one thing but defending people (used loosely) who target civilians and then use their own as shields is just nuts.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    I think Amnesty's problem with Hezbollah is not indiscriminate fire so much as fire targeted only at civilains:
    Amnesty International has accused Lebanon's Hizbollah movement of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians with its rockets.
    Crazed Rabbit
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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    I don’t even think you realize how crazy your words are. Are you actually defending Hezbos use of civilians as shields?!?! (bolded area in your post)

    Israel was announcing which villages/towns they were coming to; they even dropped flyers on the areas to warn civilians, written in 2 or 3 different languages. The Hezbos wouldn’t allow the citizens to leave and actually setup operations in civilian houses. And of course they allowed Red Cross to enter, they wanted their supplies and in some cases they even traveled in Red Cross vehicles and ambulances to mask their locations and movement from Israel. Hezbos even used old destroyed ambulances to try and fake out the media to sway popular opinion to their side.

    Israel had every right to be hostel; these lunatics kept firing missals at them!

    Condemning Israel’s heavy hand is one thing but defending people (used loosely) who target civilians and then use their own as shields is just nuts.
    But Israel is still proved to have destroyed real red-cross ambulances, they should only attack if they are absolutely certain...

    The leaflets are in many cases useless, many people dont want to leave their homes, and if they did would come back to find houses destroyed - many would have no means of evacuation anyway....

    Of course Hezbollah would set-up in civilian houses, they are a terrorist organization, so their is no state building or office for them to use, the whole point is they are (or were, depending on point of view) civilians

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    But Israel is still proved to have destroyed real red-cross ambulances, they should only attack if they are absolutely certain...
    I have actually heard about… 1) ambulances being blown up because they did indeed contained Hezbos and 2) previously destroyed ambulances being used in a PR attempt to make Israel look bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    The leaflets are in many cases useless, many people dont want to leave their homes, and if they did would come back to find houses destroyed - many would have no means of evacuation anyway....
    Anyone that is warned that their house will be destroyed and chooses to stay are fools, anyone that is warned but is forced to stay as a human shield is a regrettable civilian loss that should be counted among the civilian casualties caused by the Hezbos. It is not an easy decision but you cannot let an enemy hide behind a civilian, especially a terrorist who are so difficult to locate.

    As far as a means to evacuate, are their feet broken? If walking is what it took to save my family I would have done it and I’ll bet most of them would have too. Why wouldn’t they? The Hezbo guns pointed at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    Of course Hezbollah would set-up in civilian houses, they are a terrorist organization, so their is no state building or office for them to use, the whole point is they are (or were, depending on point of view) civilians
    The minute they picked up a weapon against Israel they gave up their “civilian” status. If they operate out of a civilian’s house that house is no longer a house it is an enemy tank and should be treated as such.
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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    I have actually heard about… 1) ambulances being blown up because they did indeed contained Hezbos and 2) previously destroyed ambulances being used in a PR attempt to make Israel look bad.

    As far as a means to evacuate, are their feet broken? If walking is what it took to save my family I would have done it and I’ll bet most of them would have too. Why wouldn’t they? The Hezbo guns pointed at them.

    The minute they picked up a weapon against Israel they gave up their “civilian” status. If they operate out of a civilian’s house that house is no longer a house it is an enemy tank and should be treated as such.
    But you do admit at least some real red cross ambulances have been hit (and presumably over-publicised), of course it all adds to PR, but Israel is doing the same thing in towns that have been rocketed, half the war is fought in the media

    walking, especially in the kind of hot weather there, would be horrible, especially in what is effectively a war-zone, with large families, many who would be emotionally attatched to their homes, it would be impossible...

    Does a single house justify destroying a whole village? or eve part of a densely populated city?
    Last edited by Scurvy; 09-14-2006 at 21:30.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    But you do admit at least some real red cross ambulances have been hit (and presumably over-publicised), of course it all adds to PR, but Israel is doing the same thing in towns that have been rocketed, half the war is fought in the media.
    No, you are incorrect. No ambulances were hit. It was a lie by Hezbollah, who were helped by useful idiots in the media.

    For a thorough breakdown, see here:
    http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

    Keep in mind the weaponry as well, the Katyusha is unreliable and imprecise, it scatters it's load pretty much randomly ... Israeli weapons are high-precision that can hit a target two meters large.
    Note that Hezbollah aimed them at civilian centers, and filled them with ball berrings to cause maximum damage to humans. Such shrapnel would have little affect on infrastructure. As an aside, those that missed and hit the countryside of Israel caused many fires and huge devastation of the environment.

    The only reason Israel bombed cities was because Hezbollah used the Lebanese as expendable human shields, and built schools ontop of their bunkers. Had Hezbollah located their bases in remote areas, Lebanese civilian causulties would have been much less. The same is not true the other way around, in regards to Israel's bases and Hezbollah's targets.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    No, you are incorrect. No ambulances were hit. It was a lie by Hezbollah, who were helped by useful idiots in the media.


    Note that Hezbollah aimed them at civilian centers, and filled them with ball berrings to cause maximum damage to humans. Such shrapnel would have little affect on infrastructure. As an aside, those that missed and hit the countryside of Israel caused many fires and huge devastation of the environment.

    The only reason Israel bombed cities was because Hezbollah used the Lebanese as expendable human shields, and built schools ontop of their bunkers. Had Hezbollah located their bases in remote areas, Lebanese civilian causulties would have been much less. The same is not true the other way around, in regards to Israel's bases and Hezbollah's targets.

    Crazed Rabbit
    There have been other incidents where ambulances or civilian cars etc have been attacked wrongly (although i suspect this was simply flaws in intelligence rather than deliberate targeting)

    The Israeli bombs are just as destructive as the Hezbollah rockets, especially as the Israelis are targetting a neutral country,

    That in no way justifies Israel bombing areas of high density population, why bomb if they know there is a high risk of mass civilian death, surely if they know the location of the militants they can track them or target more isolated groups,

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Hizbollah's actions denounced as war crimes; people are defending Israel.



    It's a war, get over it. They're all a bunch of bastards anyway, and the Lebanese suffer. "Oh we're justified in blowing towns to pieces!" "Oh it's our righteous cause to shoot rockets into cities!" "Oh we want to screw each other to death and manipulate the average Lebanese like expendables!"

    Whatever.

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    Shark in training Member Keba's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    Israel was announcing which villages/towns they were coming to; they even dropped flyers on the areas to warn civilians, written in 2 or 3 different languages. The Hezbos wouldn’t allow the citizens to leave and actually setup operations in civilian houses. And of course they allowed Red Cross to enter, they wanted their supplies and in some cases they even traveled in Red Cross vehicles and ambulances to mask their locations and movement from Israel. Hezbos even used old destroyed ambulances to try and fake out the media to sway popular opinion to their side.
    Sure, Israel warned people ... then it also told them that any vehicles moving on roads were fair targets and would be destroyed.

    So, what do you prefer? Dying at home, or dying on a road in the middle of nowhere?

    Hesbollah is a terrorist organization ... Israel is not, therefore, their actions are inexcusable.

    Keep in mind the weaponry as well, the Katyusha is unreliable and imprecise, it scatters it's load pretty much randomly ... Israeli weapons are high-precision that can hit a target two meters large.

    Hesbollah used pretty much standard guerilla and terrorist tactics ... but that is expected, they are a terrorist organization. Israeli bombing of civilian areas qualifies as a war crime ... and it should be treated as such. The commanding officers and politicans responsible (or even in a position of knowing and not stopping such outright illegal targets) should be tried as they deserve.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    It's not like they have a file on every country...


    Oooooo nasty Ironside , don't be mean

    Its not how many civilians you kill that makes you a terrorist. Its the intent.
    Interesting , so which intent makes you a terrorist ?
    Political intent , ideological intent , economic intent ?

  11. #11
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Keba
    Hesbollah is a terrorist organization ... Israel is not, therefore, their actions are inexcusable.
    This statement implicitly condones Hizbollah's actions -- even Amnesty International (not exactly fans of Israel) didn't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keba
    Keep in mind the weaponry as well, the Katyusha is unreliable and imprecise, it scatters it's load pretty much randomly ... Israeli weapons are high-precision that can hit a target two meters large.
    So we have are supposed to judge Hizbollah by WW2 targeting standards and the IDF by USA media standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keba
    Hesbollah used pretty much standard guerilla and terrorist tactics ... but that is expected, they are a terrorist organization.
    Again, your phrasing implies approval -- I assume that was not your intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keba
    Israeli bombing of civilian areas qualifies as a war crime ... and it should be treated as such. The commanding officers and politicans responsible (or even in a position of knowing and not stopping such outright illegal targets) should be tried as they deserve.
    So any bombing of a civilian area is a war-crime, regardless of intent or the presence of enemy forces firing at you? If that truly is your position, I have little empathy for it.

    Try this analogous and hypothetical example on for size:

    A Norfolk, Virginia police officer, on foot patrol, observes a burglary in progress, calling on the alleged criminals to stop. They turn and fire their weapons at her and she responds in kind. They miss, as does she. Unfortunately, her bullet travels past her target, through the front window of a nearby home, and kills a child watching TV. Your approach to war crimes would have her on trial for manslaughter as though she had purposely targeted the child!

    Even in a police situation -- normally viewed as being under TIGHTER rules of engagement constraints than actual combat -- the shooter is unlikely to be brought up on charges, yet you would hold combat soldiers to this virtually impossible higher standard. I can't agree.


    Did the IDF kill Lebanese civilians -- yes.
    Did the IDF attack damage Hamas enough to be worth the cost in lives and general "agitation" on the Arab street -- very debatable.
    Could the IDF have done a better job of minimizing civilian casualties even in difficult circumstances -- quite possibly.

    That does not rise to the level of war crimes.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Did the IDF kill Lebanese civilians -- yes.
    Did the IDF attack damage Hamas enough to be worth the cost in lives and general "agitation" on the Arab street -- very debatable.
    Could the IDF have done a better job of minimizing civilian casualties even in difficult circumstances -- quite possibly.

    That does not rise to the level of war crimes.
    Israel's stated purpose was to bomb the Lebanese back 20 years and incite the Lebanese people against Hezbollah. That means targeting the civilian infrastructure, and if they were nearby, Lebanese civilians as well.

    To correct your analogy, it would be like the police declaring a certain area, filled with civilians, to be a holdout for a gang, tell the civilians within to evacuate while actively hindering their efforts at doing so, then bombing the heck out of the area while civilians were known to be still inside. Yet even that would involve more restrained targeting than Israel showed in Lebanon, as they openly stated that their intention was to make the Lebanese civilians suffer.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Israel's stated purpose was to bomb the Lebanese back 20 years and incite the Lebanese people against Hezbollah. That means targeting the civilian infrastructure, and if they were nearby, Lebanese civilians as well.
    Are you attempting to argue that infrastructure is not a valid military target?

    To correct your analogy, it would be like the police declaring a certain area, filled with civilians, to be a holdout for a gang, tell the civilians within to evacuate while actively hindering their efforts at doing so, then bombing the heck out of the area while civilians were known to be still inside. Yet even that would involve more restrained targeting than Israel showed in Lebanon, as they openly stated that their intention was to make the Lebanese civilians suffer.
    Incorrect correction on Seamus analogy.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Are you attempting to argue that infrastructure is not a valid military target?
    Targeting infrastructure supporting the civilian population has long been regarded as unfair. Check out the historical view of poisoning wells and springs.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Targeting infrastructure supporting the civilian population has long been regarded as unfair. Check out the historical view of poisoning wells and springs.
    Poisoning wells and springs is indeed part of the supporting infrastructure, but aside from your attempt at emotional appeal, you don't have much ground to stand on in your attempt here. population.

    You might want to check out the history of modern warfare, and definitions of infrastructure of a nation. Here is a little help from Wikipedia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Infrastructure, most generally, is a set of interconnected structural elements that provide the framework supporting an entire structure. The term has diverse meanings in different fields, but is perhaps most widely understood to refer to roads, sewers, and the like, the infrastructure of a city or region. These various elements may collectively be termed civil infrastructure, municipal infrastructure, or simply public works, although they may be developed and operated as private-sector or government enterprises. In other applications, infrastructure may refer to information technology, informal and formal channels of communication, software development tools, political and social networks, or shared beliefs held by members of particular groups. Still underlying these more general uses is the concept that infrastructure provides organizing structure and support for the system or organization it serves, whether it is a city, a nation, or a corporation.

    The word seems to have originated in 19th century France, and throughout the first half of the 20th century was used to refer primarily to military installations. The term came to prominence in the United States in the 1980s following publication of America in Ruins (Choate and Walter, 1981), which initiated a public-policy discussion of the nation’s “infrastructure crisis,” purported to be caused by decades of inadequate investment and poor maintenance of public works.

    That public-policy discussion was hampered by lack of a precise definition for infrastructure. A U. S. National Research Council (NRC) committee cited Senator Stafford, who commented at hearings before the Subcommittee on Water Resources, Transportation, and Infrastructure; Committee on Environment and Public Works; that “probably the word infrastructure means different things to different people." The NRC panel then sought to rectify the situation by adopting the term "public works infrastructure," referring to "...both specific functional modes--highways, streets, roads, and bridges; mass transit; airports and airways; water supply and water resources; wastewater management; solid-waste treatment and disposal; electric power generation and transmission; telecommunications; and hazardous waste management--and the combined system these modal elements comprise. A comprehension of infrastructure spans not only these public works facilities, but also the operating procedures, management practices, and development policies that interact together with societal demand and the physical world to facilitate the transport of people and goods, provision of water for drinking and a variety of other uses, safe disposal of society's waste products, provision of energy where it is needed, and transmission of information within and between communities." (Infrastructure for the 21st Century, Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1987)

    In subsequent years the word has grown in popularity and been applied with increasing generality to suggest the internal framework discernable in any technology system or business organization. The term “critical infrastructure” has been widely adopted to distinguish those infrastructure elements that, if significantly damaged or destroyed, would cause serious disruption of the dependent system or organization. Storm or earthquake damage leading to loss of certain transportation routes in a city (for example, bridges crossing a river), could make it impossible for people to evacuate and for emergency services to operate; these routes would be deemed critical infrastructure. Similarly, an on-line reservations system might be critical infrastructure for an airline.


    Here is a decent article on targeting infrastructure in two recent conflicts.

    http://www.ciaonet.org/pbei/winep/po.../2003_725.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Infrastructure Targeting and Postwar Iraq

    The Washington Institute for Near East Policy

    By Michael Knights

    PolicyWatch #725
    March 14, 2003

    Using new operational concepts in concert with rapidly maturing strike technologies, the U.S. military will attempt to seamlessly dovetail the destructive process of warfare with the reconstructive effort of nation building in any future air operations against Iraq. Lessons learned from air campaigns conducted in Iraq during the 1990s have laid the foundation for a more finessed approach to infrastructure targeting.



    Changes in Targeting from Desert Storm to Desert Fox

    In Operation Desert Storm, a ground offensive was supported with extensive air strikes on every significant element of Iraq's dual-use power, communications, transportation, and industrial sectors. In a war that had the potential to become protracted, it made sense to destroy Iraq's ability to refine oil and produce ammunition, as well as its stockpiled reserves. At the same time, U.S. Air Force planners sought to cause only temporary damage to Iraq's economic infrastructure by precisely targeting easy-to-replace elements of key facilities rather than destroying such facilities outright.

    Yet, these plans were thwarted by standard operating procedures that were deeply ingrained in the military community. Wary of underestimating Iraq, Desert Storm planners inflicted massive damage on the country's economic infrastructure. For example, instead of targeting rapidly replaceable electricity transformer yards and refined oil storage sites, U.S. forces destroyed hard-to-replace generator halls and cracking (distillation) towers. Initially, Tomahawk cruise missiles were used to dispense carbon graphite filaments over power stations, minimizing permanent damage while still causing blackouts. Yet, these sites were later used as bomb dumps for carrier-based aircraft returning to ship, rendering the less-destructive effects of the cruise missile strikes meaningless. Desert Storm also highlighted the unforeseen consequences of disrupting the highly interconnected critical infrastructure of a modern industrialized country, as attacks on dual-use power facilities caused cascading damage throughout the water purification and sanitation systems, exacerbating a public health crisis.

    In the years following Desert Storm, these lessons were rapidly incorporated into targeting policy. During the four-day Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, the military took great pains to focus its strikes on Saddam Husayn's regime rather than on dual-use infrastructure. While numerous Ba'ath security, intelligence, and military targets were destroyed, power and telephone systems were spared. The sole economic target, authorized after hard bargaining by Desert Fox planners, was an oil refinery linked to smuggling. This target was temporarily crippled in a strike designed by the Joint Warfare Analysis Center, which engineered a targeting solution that disabled the site for six months while minimizing pollution. Five months after Desert Fox, new types of carbon graphite munitions were used to disable Serbian electrical networks during Operation Allied Force, greatly reducing permanent damage. Moreover, current reports indicate that radio frequency (RF) devices that use electromagnetic pulse effects to disrupt advanced electronics are being weaponized for deployment in cruise missiles and guided bombs in the event of a new war in Iraq.



    Targeting Iraq in 2003

    Given the fact that the Iraqi military has been greatly reduced, U.S. Air Force planners recognize that the current operational problem is how to quickly overcome a static Iraqi defense in support of a high-intensity ground war that would likely begin nearly simultaneously with an air campaign. In such a situation, slowly maturing attacks on Iraqi dual-use industrial infrastructure would not be particularly useful from a military point of view. Military planners now recognize that targeting certain forms of infrastructure (e.g., the national electrical grid or public telecommunications) causes more disruption to civilians than to the enemy military and hence may not meaningfully reduce the risk to allied forces. Moreover, such attacks may cause collateral damage -- a particularly sensitive issue given Washington's uncertain mandate for war. According to a February 5, 2003, Pentagon briefing, strikes against dual-use facilities are now automatically considered to cause collateral damage, and thus require special authorization.

    Moreover, according to the U.S. Agency for International Development's (USAID's) "Vision for Post-Conflict Iraq," the United States will strive to ensure that critical infrastructure remains operational following a war, with most transport links and water, sanitation, and electrical services functioning, especially in urban areas. Within eighteen months after a war, USAID plans to rebuild Iraqi infrastructure completely, even improving on prewar conditions. This will require limited infrastructure targeting in each sector:

    Power. Strikes against Iraq's electricity grid will probably be limited, focusing on power transmission to specific government and military facilities. RF and other nonkinetic weapons are likely to be used to minimize permanent damage.

    Water/Sanitation. USAID is preparing to deploy generators to key water and sanitation facilities in case of disruption, while personnel from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and firms such as Contrack and Morganti will be on hand within sixty days of war's end to operate Iraq's ten major facilities.

    Transportation. Iraq's transportation network is unlikely to be dismembered as it was in 1991, when over forty road and rail bridges and all major airports were destroyed. For one thing, transport nodes are necessary for allied offensive and logistical operations. In addition, more precise twenty-four-hour, all-weather intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, and strike technologies will allow on-call air forces to interdict Iraqi movement without destroying basic infrastructure such as bridges. Moreover, an intact transportation network will be required immediately after a war, as USAID aims to restore humanitarian access to major seaports (e.g., Umm Qasr), airports (e.g., Basra), and the rail network in order to ensure rapid resumption of UN Oil-for-Food deliveries and domestic fuel distribution.

    Petrol, Oil, and Lubricants. The need for a functioning transportation system and an expedient return of Iraqi oil to market following a war make it unlikely that facilities such as oil refineries will be extensively targeted. Initially, damage to downstream oil industry infrastructure will likely be tended to by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and civilian contractors Kellogg, Brown, and Root, Inc.

    Communications. Certain types of telecommunications facilities have already been extensively targeted (e.g., microwave relay, tropospheric scatter, fiber-optic). The public telephone network has been spared in all air strikes since 1991 and is unlikely to be comprehensively targeted in the future. Yet, Iraq's radio and television jamming and transmission facilities will likely be destroyed in order to open the airwaves for extensive U.S. psychological operations. RF weapons may be used in attacks on government communications infrastructure, leaving large (yet isolated) segments of the system undamaged but functionally dead.



    Implications

    U.S. forces will face many wild cards. For example, Iraqi sabotage of oil infrastructure and bridges could reverse the effectiveness of finessed U.S. targeting policies, while a prolonged conflict could necessitate wider strikes on industrial facilities or infrastructure defended by the regime. Nevertheless, current U.S. targeting plans represent an unprecedented attempt to move seamlessly from war to reconstruction. In fact, psychological operations may be the only U.S. military measures that directly target the Iraqi public and key constituencies in the Iraqi regular military and militia (as distinct from the Republican Guard). As in the Desert Fox strikes, the regime's leadership, security forces, and weapons of mass destruction materiel will constitute a large share of the preplanned targets. Such a strategy will help spare infrastructure and avoid the overkill wrought by Desert Storm.

    Michael Knights is joining The Washington Institute as a military fellow.







    In other words your attempt here is based more on emotional appeal then fact.
    Last edited by Redleg; 09-14-2006 at 23:12.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Israel's stated purpose was to bomb the Lebanese back 20 years and incite the Lebanese people against Hezbollah. That means targeting the civilian infrastructure, and if they were nearby, Lebanese civilians as well.

    To correct your analogy, it would be like the police declaring a certain area, filled with civilians, to be a holdout for a gang, tell the civilians within to evacuate while actively hindering their efforts at doing so, then bombing the heck out of the area while civilians were known to be still inside. Yet even that would involve more restrained targeting than Israel showed in Lebanon, as they openly stated that their intention was to make the Lebanese civilians suffer.
    A distinct difference -- very WW2ish thinking if so (and prone to morale backfire as were almost all city "we'll break their morale" bombings of that war). Source for these statements of IDF intention? Not being snide, Pan-man, it would not be the first time something "slipped past" USA media reportage (and/or my reading of it).
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  17. #17
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    A distinct difference -- very WW2ish thinking if so (and prone to morale backfire as were almost all city "we'll break their morale" bombings of that war). Source for these statements of IDF intention? Not being snide, Pan-man, it would not be the first time something "slipped past" USA media reportage (and/or my reading of it).
    Start with wiki and go on from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...vere_and_harsh

    According to CNN:

    The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon . . . Israel's chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told Israel's Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."[65]

    According to the Washington Post:

    But retired Israeli army Col. Gal Luft, a former commander in the town of Ramallah, said, "Israel is attempting to create a rift between the Lebanese population and Hezbollah supporters by exacting a heavy price from the elite in Beirut. The message is: If you want your air conditioning to work and if you want to be able to fly to Paris for shopping, you must pull your head out of the sand and take action toward shutting down Hezbollah-land."[66]

    Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Olmert declared the attack by Hezbollah’s military wing an “act of war”, and promised Lebanon a “very painful and far-reaching response.”[67] Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz also said that “the State of Israel sees itself free to use all measures that it finds it needs, and the Israeli Forces have been given orders in that direction.”[68]
    Googling for Olmert, Peretz, Halutz and Lebanon brings up 135,000 results, so I'm not bothering to filter them out, but starting with the wiki links and comparing their statements with what the IAF hit will bring more light to the matter. If you feel the US media isn't covering things sufficiently, try the BBC and Guardian, which are supposedly the most popular news sites on the web (by some distance) outside the portals.

  18. #18
    Shark in training Member Keba's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    This statement implicitly condones Hizbollah's actions -- even Amnesty International (not exactly fans of Israel) didn't do that..
    Firstly, I don't approve of Hesbollah or any other terrorist organization, I simply do not hold them to any standards ... they are a bunch who thinks no means are too low or immoral enough, therefore, I do not even attempt to put morals in their actions. The IDF claims moral high ground, therefore, I judge them by the position they seek and claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    So we have are supposed to judge Hizbollah by WW2 targeting standards and the IDF by USA media standards?
    No, I am merely stating fact ... the Hesbollah can only hope to hit a big target with their weapons ... the only one they are presented with are cities. I do not even attempt to imagine what they would do with more advanced weaponry. Like I said, they use guerilla and hit-and-run tactics, they do so by ensuring that no-one feels safe ... they have succeeded, and additionally, they managed to make the IDF to stand down. IDF was fighting a war of military strength, where they win, Hesbollah was waging psychological warfare ... and the Hesbollah won.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    So any bombing of a civilian area is a war-crime, regardless of intent or the presence of enemy forces firing at you? If that truly is your position, I have little empathy for it.
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Try this analogous and hypothetical example on for size:

    A Norfolk, Virginia police officer, on foot patrol, observes a burglary in progress, calling on the alleged criminals to stop. They turn and fire their weapons at her and she responds in kind. They miss, as does she. Unfortunately, her bullet travels past her target, through the front window of a nearby home, and kills a child watching TV. Your approach to war crimes would have her on trial for manslaughter as though she had purposely targeted the child!
    Manslaughter means a non-intentional killing ... and yes, I would bring her up on charges. Intentional or not, she has commited her act. The alleged criminals would also be brought up for attempted murder, as well as burglary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Even in a police situation -- normally viewed as being under TIGHTER rules of engagement constraints than actual combat -- the shooter is unlikely to be brought up on charges, yet you would hold combat soldiers to this virtually impossible higher standard. I can't agree.
    Nevertheless, I would hold not only soldiers, but their officers as well to this ... as you say, nigh-impossible standard. The fact of the matter may be that a dumb civilian poked his head out at the wrong moment and ate a bullet, but I was mostly refering to unrestricted bombing campaigns the likes of which were used by the IDF (and, to an extent, the USA in certain situations).

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Did the IDF kill Lebanese civilians -- yes.
    Did the IDF attack damage Hamas enough to be worth the cost in lives and general "agitation" on the Arab street -- very debatable.
    Could the IDF have done a better job of minimizing civilian casualties even in difficult circumstances -- quite possibly.

    That does not rise to the level of war crimes.
    But the bombardment of civilan areas ... as well as the prevention of supplies, aid, and evacuation ... that does constitute crimes against humanity and war crimes as well.

    A war crime can be as simple as killing ten people ... or as complex as nuking a city. A crime against humanity can be as simple as you stopping an ambulance from passing through a check-point to an all-out campaign of genocide.

    Therefore, the IDF is guilty of war crimes.

  19. #19
    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Oh Amnesty International, better late than never, eh?
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


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  20. #20

    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Are you attempting to argue that infrastructure is not a valid military target?

    Interesting , so next time some nutter blows up some element of a public transport system it is a valid military target then .

  21. #21
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    I imagine that regarding infrasstructure as a valid target stems from the Allies firebombing Japanese cities and levelling square miles at a time. If people are a miitary resource - which is effectively what that applies, then you can destroy whatever you like.

    Pearl Harbour was a despicable attack - hitting a naval base like that.

    Locking up all people of Japenese descent in concentration camps and forcing them to sell their houses is fine, as is firebombing cities.

    Yes, every country is a bunch of hipocrites. Most place the lives of their citizens above the lives of others.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  22. #22
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Are you attempting to argue that infrastructure is not a valid military target?

    Interesting , so next time some nutter blows up some element of a public transport system it is a valid military target then .

    Here is a clue for you to follow before you go off on your tangent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Israel's stated purpose was to bomb the Lebanese back 20 years and incite the Lebanese people against Hezbollah. That means targeting the civilian infrastructure, and if they were nearby, Lebanese civilians as well.
    My response

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Are you attempting to argue that infrastructure is not a valid military target?
    It seems you are once again attempting the old strawman
    Last edited by Redleg; 09-15-2006 at 01:17.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  23. #23
    MTR: AOA project ###### (temp) Member kataphraktoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    If anyone bothered to read the Christian Lebanese views of the war, they are more livid at Hezbollah than Israel despite Israel bombing and targetting Maronite installations (communications).

    To summarise it:
    1) They blame Hezbollah for provoking Israel
    2) THey hate Hezbollah for launching mortars on Maronite property...which what else leads Israel to think Maronite property is Hezbollah territory
    3) Hezbollah using the homes of Maronites as if it was theirs

    So in this regard, Israel did actually get the Lebanese to hate Hezbollah albeit the Maronite Lebanese, not sure about the Sunnis, so not going to assume anything about them.
    Retired from games altogether!!

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  24. #24
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    RE: post #26, this thread

    Keba:

    While I too, share little in the way of surprise that Hezbollah does not feel itself to be bound by the "rules of war," your position on the IDF and other nations in the use of force is impracticable.

    You assert that the bombing of civlian areas or the attack of civilian transport -- even when those attacks were made in the reasonable belief that an "enemy" was the intended target -- are criminal. You reinforced this with your response to my hypothetical scenario. While this may be correct on a moral level -- and folks have been debating that one for years -- the practical application of this is to allow Hezbollah and the criminals to win.

    If force cannot be used save in those rare instances where there is virtually or absolutely zero chance of an unintended target gettting hit, then any entity that feels bound by that constraint will be unable to employ force in a vast majority of instances. Since, as you yourself note, terrorist/criminal forces seldom feel such restraint and since they are smart enough to quickly perceive the reticence of "official" forces to do so, you will rapidly engender a situation where the official forces can line up to be shot but not return fire.

    Using the recent example of Israel's attacks on Hezbollah in Lebanon, your version would have them simply sitting there taking rocket hits and doing nothing since any and all retaliation would put innocents at risk.

    All of our police already give up the opportunity to fire first (correctly) and often cease/hold off on the use of force if they have any reasonable concern that an innocent will be harmed (correctly) -- your standard puts this beyond the bound of rationality.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  25. #25
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hizbollah's tactics denounced as war crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    Israel was announcing which villages/towns they were coming to; they even dropped flyers on the areas to warn civilians, written in 2 or 3 different languages.
    At the same time, as I'm sure somebody already pointed out, they bombed the roads. But as you North Americans say, I suppose life's full of trade-offs.

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