Quote Originally Posted by SpencerH
I'm not discussing the tactics of a HA army v foot army. I'm taliking about after I've obliterated the AI standing army but one or two (usually) HA units refuse to retreat off the map and must be chased endlessly round and round. I've even 'lost' battles in this fashion.

I know it happened in Shogun, MTW, and RTW. Isnt it about time it was fixed. I'm not saying this will contribute to the problem BTW, I'm just pointing out the possibility. Given that the tone of the article suggests that the author was pleased and surprised by the AI behaviour I have to wonder if there hasnt been sufficient playtesting.
What you describe doesn't appear to make sense. Unless you had VERY few foot soldiers left.

If you have defeated "the standing army", then the game's *fear* factor should have caused those HA to flee the battlefield.

I don't believe the game needs to be fixed in this regard.

What needs be is a good dissemination to the casual gamer of just how the *fear* factor works and how to effect it upon the enemy AI.

One mistake, a great many people make in playing both STW and MTW is the idea that you need to physically defeat every single enemy unit or even the majority of enemy units.

You don't.

You just need to instill the fear factor thoughout the opposing army and it will rout. Once routing, you just need to maintain (or increase) the level of the fear factor.

In your rough example, I would ask why the HA are still on the field in the first place. Putting that aside, in the circumstance the fear factor principal is still in effect.

You simply need to instill the fear factor in those remaining HA. If the "standing army" has been defeated and majorily has routed save the a few remaining HA, then once the fear factor is instilled----the battle should end!

Once the fear factor has reached a certain balance---the battle is over. This is the way the game is coded.

The only exception in the circumstance you describe, is if you have a lessor number of men. That is the HA outnumber your remaining men (and/or a significant quality difference). If this is the case, then the HA's fear factor might be roughly the same (or possibly greater) as your own.

I'm sure you're not playing STW/MTW anymore, but it just takes a little practice and/or someone to show you just how the fear factor works in depth.

The underlying battle factors within STW and MTW are hugely significant, though the overwhelming majority of players NEVER comprehended nor mastered them to any seriously effective degree. Which is why CA disregarded them, for the greater part, in RTW!!

In STW/MTW you can rout an entire standing army by simply killing the
general---this is the fear factor in effect. The thing of it is you don't *need* to kill the general. You simply need to instill the fear factor within certain *key* units and cause them to flee; the rest of the army, including the general, will follow. Once in flight, never allow the fleeing army to get organized, use your cav to run down the toughest units, and keep advancing your main (foot) body. Whenever the AI appears to be organizing, simply advance your archers ((HA) are good for this) and hit the front line with a few arrows---this is why you should never use up all your arrows.

Mastering the 'fear factor' will allow a player to take on any number of AI stacks with just a single (good) stack. 1 to 100 and you can still come out the winner. I've got the replays (somewhere) to prove it.

Sorry for the post---I just had a flashback! :)

Long way to say nothing needs to be *fixed* re STW/MTW.

RTW, on the other hand is simply unplayable!

I'm not sure if its my writing or your reading, but I am talking about my (usually) winded cavalry chasing winded AI cav round and round the map edges. It is not something that can be "avoided with proper preparation" (although it can be dealt with in the battle with a blocking force to cause the AI cav to slow and be caught of course).
(Theoretically) How many units do you have left? Don't understand why you cannot use a "blocking force" just the same. I think this is a tactical problem.

Originally Posted by Puzz3D
In MTW, there is a global morale penalty for level of decimation of the army. It helps prevent a battle from being dragged out by a handful of units which have suffered heavy casualties. I don't know the level of decimation at which this penalty is incurred. I don't think this penalty was in STW because all units routed towards the original entry point on the map so it's much easier to chase off a defeated army. MTW introduced routing away from the threat which makes it a lot harder to mop up after a battle, and I think that's why the level of decimation penalty was introduced.
Yes, in MTW it did make it somewhat harder. Generally, because reinforcements could, in MTW, enter the field from virtually any point (of the oppossing side's map edge). Whereas, in STW, reinforcements would enter the field from, virtually, the same point.

The key was to not allow the entering reinfocements to move much beyond the map edge. If this was accomplished, they would rout easily, given the majority of the 'standing army' was routed and/or had a high fear factor.

The plethora of units and factions and upgrades (STW only had honor upgrades) places too much emphasis on buying the best units with the best upgrades which robs the multiplayer gameplay not only of its strategic potential, but even it's tactical potential.
Could not agree more.

I respect to the utter utmost your testing ability and knowledge, though, at times, I've had issue with the certainess of your conclusions when applied to a dirty (real world) environment, as opposed to a sterile testing environment.

For example,

I measured the size and range of the morale effect of friendly units rout, the supporting effect of the general and the effect of the general dying (-8 morale) or leaving the field (no effect on morale).
Was the "supporting effect" and "the effect of the general dying or leaving the field" measured through the full +/- spectrum of morale; and inconjunction with each and every unit, as well as each and every combination of units. Furthering, how many units, in addition to the General, was included within the test(s); what combinations of units; what 'quality' level; what combination of level 'quality' did the units (as well as the general) comprising the test(ing) have?.

How can any prediction be absolutely true, given the virtual if not real infinite possibilities and probabilities? Which does not take into account the introduction of a dirty environment---which is the gaming environment.

As I've said, I do not doubt your conclusions, I have some concern/issues with the application (or at least some) in a real world environment.

The question(s) is/are posed in a general sense, so any response (if any) can be posed generally as well. The above may or may not be a good example, I choose it because it stuck out to me, I use it just as an exampler to bounce off my questions, thoughts and concerns.

Thank you.

I also determined the size of the outnumbering morale penalty, that only the number of enemy banners within a certain radius contributed to it, that the size of the penalty diminished with the total number, that it had a maximum cutoff value of 3 banners and that it didn't matter if the enemy units were hidden.
Super interesting.


NOTE: Nothing above was meant nor intended to be of any insult whatsoever.


~ToranagaSama