Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful

[GoreBag]

Smart move by the Pope. Muslim hypocrisy has never been so blatantly obvious.

Haha, what, the pope personally gains through this reaction?

"Yes...good..."

[GoreBag]

No, but the Muslim Extremists--perhaps the entire Muslim Community--loses face by this rioutous and (to be honest) laughable reaction.

Whatever you say. I sincerely doubt that it affects anything real and tangible, even if they have 'lost face'. We all know that they were reactionaries anyway.

[Don Corleone]

SilverRusher, my issue is not with the buggery itself. Sadly, that shows up everywhere, and yes, you're right, it was a few American priests.

My issue is much deeper... the hypocricy and the sheer evil of an organization that would threaten children with excommunication for going to the police with their stories. Before you go defending the bigwigs of the Church and how it was only a couple of priests, you really ought to go do some research into how many times offending priests have been reassigned. Go read about the Navajo mission in Northwestern New Mexico. Read about Shanley joining NAFTA, and Law telling him not that his desires were evil, but that he ought not to be so public about them.

I did say some nasty things about Ratzinger, and I hold to them. I edited them not because I don't stand behind them, but because I don't think I need to offend practicing Catholics in this dialogue, and I'll pick one, maybe two boogeymen per thread (and Ratzingers Nazi ties are yet another thread).

[Husar]

I did say some nasty things about Ratzinger, and I hold to them. I edited them not because I don't stand behind them, but because I don't think I need to offend practicing Catholics in this dialogue, and I'll pick one, maybe two boogeymen per thread (and Ratzingers Nazi ties are yet another thread).

Well, I don't like the pope or the catholic church either, but the point about ratzinger being a Nazi is pretty weird since he was a kid back then, raised under Nazi doctrine with no other perspective given.

On topic I think that it's usually the bad guys who make a company, group or religion look bad.

A Laden blows up two towers -> all muslims are terrorist breeders
A Bush calls for crusade -> all christians are warmongering idiots
A Putin wants an empire -> all Russians are evil imperialist commies
A Hitler starts WW2 -> all Germans are evil Nazis who murder jews in their spare time

Maybe some monkeysphere phenomenon in that we take the actions of a famous person as example for the actions and thoughts of all of his or her "followers"(or who we think are his followers), especially if we have some previous prejudice anyway.

[Lemur]

Yes, you're right, it was a few American priests.

Am I missing something here? The pedophile priest problem has not been confined to the borders of the U.S.A., not by a long shot. I don't have time to dig up a pile of original links, but here's a summary:

One of the worst examples of a clergyman using his links with families to facilitate the abuse of children occurred in Ireland, where one priest ² systematically raped and sexually abused hundreds of boys between 1945 and 1990. The scandal over the Fr. Brendan Smyth case, and the systematic obstruction of justice in his case by the Norbertine Order caused immense damage to the credibility of the Catholic church in Ireland, as did other cases, such as that of Fr. Jim Grennan, a parish priest, who abused children as they prepared for First Communion, and Fr. Sean Fortune, who committed suicide before his trial for the rape of children. The abuse by Grennan and others in the Diocese of Ferns in south-east Ireland led to the resignation of the local bishop, Brendan Comiskey, while similar scandals in the Archdiocese of Dublin severely damaged the reputation of its archbishop, Cardinal Connell. Although there were other social factors at play, some have argued that the ten-year drop in the percentage of Irish people attending weekly Mass (from 63% to 48%) was related to these events.

[Don Corleone]

[QUOTE=Lemur]Am I missing something here? The pedophile priest problem has not been confined to the borders of the U.S.A., not by a long shot. I don't have time to dig up a pile of original links, but [\QUOTE]

I'm going to chalk this one up to you and I being on different wavelengths. Allow me to correct my original statement: a few priests here and there. As with pedophiles in all walks of life, it's a relatively small number of priests that have actually engaged in the behavior. It's because pedophiles are so prodigious in their activities that even one or two can rack up such a large body count. This is true of pedophiles at all levels. The uniqueness of the situation of the Catholic church is the protection level. If you're a rabbi or a lutheran minister and you get caught doing these things, they strip you of your ecclesiastical authority and hand you in to the secular authorities. The Catholic Church seems to be content to 1) move you to another parish where you're unknown 2) payoff those victims and witnesses that will take money to keep quiet and 3) proceed to threaten those that didn't take the money in #2 with excommunication (which, for those non-Catholics out there, to a believer is a fate worse than death, as your immortal soul is in immediate jeoprady of Hell and you cannot receive the sacrament of reconciliation, it's supposed to be reserved for heresy and other acts against the Church at large, not for shutting up molested children).

[Blodrast]

[QUOTE=Don Corleone]

Am I missing something here? The pedophile priest problem has not been confined to the borders of the U.S.A., not by a long shot. I don't have time to dig up a pile of original links, but [\QUOTE]

I'm going to chalk this one up to you and I being on different wavelengths. Allow me to correct my original statement: a few priests here and there. As with pedophiles in all walks of life, it's a relatively small number of priests that have actually engaged in the behavior. It's because pedophiles are so prodigious in their activities that even one or two can rack up such a large body count. This is true of pedophiles at all levels. The uniqueness of the situation of the Catholic church is the protection level. If you're a rabbi or a lutheran minister and you get caught doing these things, they strip you of your ecclesiastical authority and hand you in to the secular authorities. The Catholic Church seems to be content to 1) move you to another parish where you're unknown 2) payoff those victims and witnesses that will take money to keep quiet and 3) proceed to threaten those that didn't take the money in #2 with excommunication (which, for those non-Catholics out there, to a believer is a fate worse than death, as your immortal soul is in immediate jeoprady of Hell and you cannot receive the sacrament of reconciliation, it's supposed to be reserved for heresy and other acts against the Church at large, not for shutting up molested children).

Hmm, this may again be a discussion for another thread, but I'll go ahead and ask in this one anyway. Don, I can understand your frustration with the institution (although I don't necessarily agree with your view that if there are a few rotten fruits in the orchard, the entire thing is bad). But why did you change your beliefs, rather than just stop going to church, and remain a Catholic ? I mean, believing whatever Catholicism preaches should not be changed in any way by what the institution does or does not. In my opinion, of course.

I'm asking out of curiosity, I'm not pointing fingers or anything of the kind, and I hope you don't take it that way. I'm specifying this, because I know it's hard to get tone and implications from an Internet board post...

Apologies if I'm derailing this thread, and, if you want, of course we can save this for another thread or something similar.

[Lemur]

I'm going to chalk this one up to you and I being on different wavelengths.

Hey, I wasn't trying to misrepresent your position, and I'm sorry if I did. It was one of those moments when you read something, say to yourself, "Is he saying what I think he's saying?" and post a little more backround info. Please have patience with the lemur when he misunderstands you. It's not meant maliciously.

[Don Corleone]

I didn't take it that way. It was more a sigh of frustration at the misunderstanding itself then defensive posturing. I would think it goes without saying that the pedophilia crisis looms over the entire world. The reason it appears to be so prevalent in the US is we actually air our dirty laundry. I in no way meant to imply that I believed it was a uniquely American Catholic affair, nor did I take offense with you Lemur when you read my phrase a little too literally. The fault, if any, is mine for sloppy lanaguage.

[Goofball]

SilverRusher, my issue is not with the buggery itself. Sadly, that shows up everywhere, and yes, you're right, it was a few American priests.

My issue is much deeper... the hypocricy and the sheer evil of an organization that would threaten children with excommunication for going to the police with their stories. Before you go defending the bigwigs of the Church and how it was only a couple of priests, you really ought to go do some research into how many times offending priests have been reassigned. Go read about the Navajo mission in Northwestern New Mexico. Read about Shanley joining NAFTA, and Law telling him not that his desires were evil, but that he ought not to be so public about them.

I did say some nasty things about Ratzinger, and I hold to them. I edited them not because I don't stand behind them, but because I don't think I need to offend practicing Catholics in this dialogue, and I'll pick one, maybe two boogeymen per thread (and Ratzingers Nazi ties are yet another thread).

What on Earth does the North American Free Trade Agreement have to do with buggery?

(Aside from you Yanks bending us Canucks over the table in the softwood lumber dispute?)

[Don Corleone]

Oops, substitute NAMBLA for NAFTA, sorry about that.

[KukriKhan]

Any org theologians know if Poppy Benny's lecture qualifies as an ex cathedra pronouncement?

If not, it's just one man's opinion.

But if so, it obligates the world's catholics to some kind of active affirmation.

Either way, Sunday's sermons this week ought to be interesting.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I believe the Pope has to declare he is speaking ex cathedra, and that it has to be about certain matters only. So I'm going to say no, if I didn't get mixed up about your question.

Crazed Rabbit

[Xiahou]

Any org theologians know if Poppy Benny's lecture qualifies as an ex cathedra pronouncement?

If not, it's just one man's opinion.

But if so, it obligates the world's catholics to some kind of active affirmation.

Either way, Sunday's sermons this week ought to be interesting.

No, I dont think it was. Besides, his point "Conversion by violence is not of God" is pretty tough to disagree with either way. Him quoting a long dead emperor while making that point doesnt make for some sort of Church proclamation against Islam.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Any org theologians know if Poppy Benny's lecture qualifies as an ex cathedra pronouncement?.

No, it was simply a lecture.

I know that the Backroom contains people who like to pursue knowledge, and those that prefer to rant.

In the spirit of the former, I post a link to the Holy Father's actual speech. It was an intelligent reflection on the nature of God as reason, something that has exercised us here on occasion. He quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologus from the text written by the emperor, recounting a debate with a Persian.

In essence, His Holiness was arguing for the belief that the biblical God is the fount of reason and that violence to promote faith is both unreasonable and doomed to failure. He noted that this was a position that Mohammed (p.b.u.h.) took originally, but then changed to support violent spread of the faith in his later years. The philosophical essence of Allah was that His word was absolute (even the interlocutor reported was arguing that Allah was not even bound by his own word).

In essence, Pope Benedict was charting the journey that Christianity has taken from peaceful origins through violent conversions to reasoned co-existence and arguing that this last was more reflective of God as logos (in Greek, word or reason). In contrast, fundamentalism in both camps was ignoring reason in favour of emotional and practical violence, and thus a dialogue between reasoning people in both religions might bring understanding.

It is a thoughtful speech and one that bears reflection. How some Muslim leaders have stoked it up into:

The owner of those unfortunate and arrogant comments, Benedict XVI, has gone down in history, but in the same category as Hitler and Mussolini.

is rather beyond me, unless they believe that discussing the root causes of the evil that is perpetrated in Islam's name makes them feel vulnerable and on the defensive. The reaction rather proves the point that reason is becoming a scarce commodity in the face of the fundamentalist threat.