Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 136

Thread: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

  1. #1
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    THis thread will be used to discuss about the project in general.

    More detailed threads will be started for certain topics.

  2. #2
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!
    Posts
    7,906

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    So this has gone from M:TW to R:TW to M2:TW? Are you doing a mod for each or "upgrading" your rome mod to M2? If you aren't doing one for Rome I apologize; I seem to remember you saying that you were.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  3. #3
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    RTW project was scrapped severla months ago - it wasn't worth doing that with the news about MTW2 and the new possibilities it adds - dismountable cavalry, revolvin ranks of musketeers and WARWAGONS especially

  4. #4
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    The mod expands in several forums

    at MedievalTW.com we have another sub-forum

    http://www.medievaltw.com/forums/index.php?showforum=68


    , more will come later...

  5. #5
    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,505
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Actually, the new pikemen formations are almost perfect fot the tercio. We'll just have to see how are the musketeers implemented...
    Managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations - Masamune

    Pie is merely the power of the state intruding into the private lives of the working class. - Beirut

  6. #6
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Hello Swordsmaster !


    Revolving ranks - this is all I know - we will see about the rest...

  7. #7
    It was a trap, after all. Member DukeofSerbia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sombor, Serbia (one day again Kingdom)
    Posts
    1,001

    Question Hussars

    Hello cegorach.

    Did you saw this on polish site? http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/pol_hussars.jpg

    Hussars
    The first Hussars are thought to have been Serbian nobles seeking refugee in Hungary. The tradition of hit and run tactics of the Hussars found a fertile home in Hungary where they become influenced by the Magyars and the Uyghur Turks. Very fast, these elite lancers are equipped with light mail or brigandine armor and armed with...
    ?????????????
    Watching
    EURO 2008 & Mobile Suit Gundam 00

    Waiting for: Wimbledon 2008.

  8. #8
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Nothing unusual really. A more advanced Balcan cavalry which later was known as Hussars, Rac or Stradiotti - all come from the same source really.

    Do you need anything really specific ?
    Last edited by cegorach; 09-29-2006 at 12:50.

  9. #9
    It was a trap, after all. Member DukeofSerbia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sombor, Serbia (one day again Kingdom)
    Posts
    1,001

    Default Hussars

    Thanks for answer.

    I know that Hungarians later called Serbs (us) as Rac but that was in offensive meaning. Rac came from Raška.

    Does that mean Serbs have light cavalry (I found some texts about so called Gussars who were light cavalry) which influenced on Polish warfare? Can you be more precisely?
    Watching
    EURO 2008 & Mobile Suit Gundam 00

    Waiting for: Wimbledon 2008.

  10. #10
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    No problem.

    The light cavalry of this kind existed in the Balcans from at least the XIIth century ( BYzantine auxilia recruited from the local people).

    It was rather obvious that the fashion will sppread after the empire was too weak to employ them. So many left and were hired by other states.

    In addition the nomads like Vlachs, Cumans or Mongols as well as Ottoman Akinji who were using light cavalry were both a problem, an incentive and the recruitment base for this form of light recon cavalry.

    The most important event was of course the fall of the Serbian Empire which triggered more massive wave of new 'recruits' hired later by the closest country - Hungary. There was also a similar cavalry type called Stradiotti coming from Albanians and Greeks and hired by the Venetians.
    Probably several types of cavalry came from the same source - the Balkans in general, but to some degree influnced by Serbs - Albanian/Greek Stradiotti, Dalmatian Capoletti, Hungarian Huszárok, Wallachian and Moldavian Curteni and so on.

    The name Rac was used more often in Poland and comes directly to describe Polish cavalry called Racowie which in the beginning was recruited for sure from Serbian refugees ( or at least Serbs were their leaders).
    Many of them settled in Poland and Lithuania and the rising demand for light cavalry of this type exceptionally useful against all the enemies of the united state meant that gradually their numbers rose at the expense of heavier cavalry.


    Later they gained armours becoming medium-light and finally after the complete removal of heavy lancers in Poland-Lithuanian state the famous Winged Hussars were born.
    Hungary seen similar, almost identical changes and for sure it influenced similar reforms in Poland ( actually Hungarian prince Stephen Bathory after he was elected the king of the Commonwealth bgrought some of his Transylvanian army with him).
    Venetian Stradiotti became even lighter and abandoned lances completely, but remained well known unitll early XVIIth century as Greeek/Albanian cavalry. Later light lancers were often called Bosniaks also coming form this country.



    Combat use - first Venetians and Hungarians used this form of light lancer. Later (few years) also Poles did it with large contingent of Hussars having their important part in the victory at Orsha in 1514 or even earlier at Kleck in 1505.
    At that time they supported heavy lancers - a sort of hammer for the anvil made by the lancers.

    Hungarians were for sure the ones which started using armoured Hussars first - the wars with the Ottomans learnt them that, but they were the first ones to abandon it first in some part of the Hussars supporting heavier Hussars in commbat, later because of great disasters ( like the stupid war with Poland in 1657-58) had to abandon lances completely. Their Hussars became the famous light cavalry - initially working for the Hapsburg Austrians and during the Rakoczy uprising in 1701-11.


    That should be rather enough.

  11. #11
    Kyokushin warrior Member Ultras DVSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Debrecen, Hungary
    Posts
    324

    Default Re: Hussars

    Quote Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia
    I know that Hungarians later called Serbs (us) as Rac but that was in offensive meaning.
    No offense, the name Rac bears a relation to the ethnical group itself. Otherwise personally according to my surname (Rácz) I'm a Serb too...

    Anyway Cegorach's description is excellent, I'd like add to this name-issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia
    Does that mean Serbs have light cavalry (I found some texts about so called Gussars who were light cavalry) which influenced on Polish warfare?
    Well, we can say it does, but rather everything influences everything, in that time (mid 15th c.) there was an urgent need of reforming the slothful, heavily armoured feudal armies. The southern and eastern threats demanded units that were similar to the aggressors’ and were up to them. That meant light-armoured horse-archers, lancers.

    In the history of Hungary the horsemen called hussars did not first appeared in the 15th. It merely happened that the word ‘hussar’ was firstly mentioned by King Matthias (1458-1490) in one of his letter to his father in law, the king of Naples in 1481: ‘equites levis armaturae, quos hussarones appellamus’ – light armoured horsemen that we call hussars. The assumption that in the Hungarian language the word ‘huszár’ originates from name ‘gusar’ meaning ‘horseraider’ of the from Turks flying Serb horsemen is definitely false because it’s quite inconceivable that King Matthias named his most honourable elite warriors after Serb raiders, moreover that noble families (written sources before the early 15th c.) would have adopted the name of horseraiders... According to newest researches there was a similar word in the Uyghur language meaning ‘ordinary soldier’.

    Otherwise the hussars were not born in that time – they were just reborn. They used the same tactic (and formerly the same weaponry) as for example the conquering Magyars or other peoples. Their time has come again.

    Anyway, Cegorach thanks for the link, if I have further questions, I’ll don’t hesitate to ask you. ;)

  12. #12
    It was a trap, after all. Member DukeofSerbia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sombor, Serbia (one day again Kingdom)
    Posts
    1,001

    Thumbs up Great texts

    Hvala cegorach and Ultras DVSC

    I will read and study this at home and answer in following days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultras DVSC
    No offense, the name Rac bears a relation to the ethnical group itself. Otherwise personally according to my surname (Rácz)
    Rac is also Rusin surname, Serbian and Hungarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultras DVSC
    I'm a Serb too...
    Prove it. ;)
    Last edited by DukeofSerbia; 09-30-2006 at 20:23.
    Watching
    EURO 2008 & Mobile Suit Gundam 00

    Waiting for: Wimbledon 2008.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Hussars

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultras DVSC

    ...other peoples. Their time has come again.


    Does Hungarians have any connection with the Huns?

    Always wondered that..


    and one more thing

    Hussar Huns... well nevermind about the second question just my wild theories I guess....

  14. #14
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    THey in fact ARE Huns - the tribes which didn't go with the rest as it is claimed.

  15. #15
    The Lion Prince Member Sundjata Keita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    England
    Posts
    505

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Hey, great to see this mod back in development! It will be so much better on MTW2 than it could have been on RTW. Good luck with it guys!

    Regards,

    Sundjata

    EDIT: Woo, 500th post

  16. #16
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Ruins of Atlantis a.k.a Florida
    Posts
    1,658

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    - split protestant german states into Saxony, Brandenburg and something else,
    If the start date is 1572, then the strongest protestant force in germany, with perhaps the exception of Saxony, is the Count Palatinate of the Rhine. The Rhinesh Palitinate was certainly stronger than Brandenburg, which was very much backwoods at the time.

  17. #17
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    I agree, but it is hard to find anything unique for this army in the period of time.

  18. #18
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    7,967

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    THey in fact ARE Huns - the tribes which didn't go with the rest as it is claimed.
    Make that Hungarian-Magyars. An eclectic mix of Fenno-Ugric-Turkic-Khazar (speaking a clearly Fenno-Ugric language with a whole lot of Turkic and Khazar influences) steppe nomads who were driven from the South Russian steppe by the... whatchamacallit... well, those guys whose most commonly used names in various languages mean roughly "steppe dweller", anyway... around early 10th century AD. The Magyars arrived to find the Great Hungarian plain a sparsely inhabited and contested borderland between some three nearby minor principalities, and as a fully developed steppe army had little trouble setting up shop and creating themselves some "elbow room" by enacting a sort of "scorched earth" policy to lands in the immediate vicinity of their new holdings.

    I've read the typical pattern of intra-nomad conquest was for the main body of the defeated tribes to submit to and meld into the victor without further ado, while the defeated ruling military elite fled. Something of the sort probably happened to the Hungarians too, as apparently early on the primary goal of their raids was abducting women. Anyway, they went on to both provide mercenary service to whoever could pay enough and raid deep into Europe, for their part contributing to the emergence of the characteristic European pattern of fortress-saturated feudalism. The Great Hungarian Plain can't support much in the way of proper pastoralism so they duly had to settle down - pretty much certainly as a ruling warrior class over the heads of whatever peasantry already existed in the area and could be enticed and/or bullied to moving there - and some major defeats such as River Lech further convinced them to calm down and start to behave. They converted to Christianity sometime in the early 11th century, although that didn't keep them from annihilating one of the main colums of the Peasants' Crusade when it wouldn't stop lynching Jews, looting towns and generally causing distruption the Hungarian elite newly taken to the idea of feudalism frowned upon.

    The Huns were pretty much goners after Attila - his sons tore the empire apart in succession dispute, the usual story. Some remnants claiming - probably justifiably - descent from the same dynasty that produced Attila hung around the western and northern coastline of Black Sea for a few more centuries, but they were but minor steppe princedoms and of rather little importance compared to successive nomadic powers like the Bulgars, Avars (who probably unintentionally spawned the Slavs), Khazars and Hungarian-Magyars. Those away from the steppe doubtless settled down as farmers and most were likely eventually absorbed, like pretty much everyone else in the area, into the rapidly spreading rather loose Slav canfederation, which took over much of what had once been Hunnish territory AFAIK. Not that the Huns proper had been a particular majority even in the empire that bore their name, since it naturally contained the usual gaggle of conquered peoples (presumably mostly assorted German- and Iranian-speakers), tributary, subject and allied peoples, Roman leftovers, opportunistic adventurers and all the other usual odds and ends early Migrations era powers now tended to include.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  19. #19
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Thank you, but it is all irrelevant to the way the Hungarians will be represented in the mod - after all in 1572 it was all ancient past.

  20. #20
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    7,967

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Wasn't half the place Habsburg estates and the other half Ottoman frontier by that date ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  21. #21
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Royal Hungary were autonomous part of Hapsburg domain, most of the rest was occupied by the Ottomans, true - yet there was the Duchy of Transylvania with much greater level of autonomy often bordering independence.

    For the last reason they will appear in the mod - I made extensive research regarding their military and political situation which results justify including them as a seperate faction.

  22. #22
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    7,967

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Wasn't Transylvania (as well as a few odd other princedoms around there) for all intents and purposes independent entities for most of the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period ? You see references to them as independent actors in quite a few writings on the Ottoman-everyone conflicts in the region...

    But then, feudal barons were often beholden to their nominal superiors in pure theory only and the Balkans-Central Europe region doesn't appear to have ever been very conductive to close control from power centers outside it. Probably all those mountains that did it. Nobody was ever too good at ruling the high ground.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  23. #23
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    It was de facto the last part of independent or semi-independent Hungary with noticable changes in warfare, reforms in all areas etc.
    The worse times approached after the lost war against Poland in 1657 and later Ottoman punitive expedition.

    About the Balcans - sure Moldavia, Wallachia, Ragusa and Montenegro also managed to retain some level of autonomy either because were too much concerned with other affairs ( Ragusa), too small to occupy (Montenegro) or managed to shift its policy from pro-Ottoman to pro-Hapsburg or pro-Polish it all worked for all this time period or at least for some time...

    Anyway the Balcans are quite interesting at that time and one Balcan state will appear, unfortuanatelly it is much more complex than with the MTW1 edition where I could place them all.
    Maybe later alternative patched addons will be made with factions such as Ragusa - MTW2 makes it more interesting to play after all.

  24. #24
    It was a trap, after all. Member DukeofSerbia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sombor, Serbia (one day again Kingdom)
    Posts
    1,001

    Thumbs up Montenegro

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    too small to occupy (Montenegro)
    Or too much difficult...
    Watching
    EURO 2008 & Mobile Suit Gundam 00

    Waiting for: Wimbledon 2008.

  25. #25
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Both - 'where the small army prospers, the large one starves'

  26. #26
    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Ruins of Atlantis a.k.a Florida
    Posts
    1,658

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach
    I agree, but it is hard to find anything unique for this army in the period of time.
    Definatly, but really I dont think there was much difference between various German armies of the time period. I know to some players that might be dissapointing, but the prospect of playing as various German-States surely has apeal to many people.

  27. #27
    Significante Member Antagonist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The utmost reaches of antiquity
    Posts
    495

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    I was going to ask you the familiar question to all M2TW projects recently: "What will you do with the factions with 30 slots?" But then I checked the main thread and remembered that you had already anticipated that development.

    Instead I have a faction-related question. Maybe it's a bit premature before unit lists etc. have been drawn up, but I'll ask anyway:

    I know there were more then 30 factions in P&MTW and that some will have to be cut, but there were a few small factions that didn't make the cut which I enjoyed a lot, like Switzerland, Ireland, and the Cossacks, mostly because of their unique units. Is it possible that even if the faction itself is not, that some of th unique units of small factions will be in P&M2, as "rebels" mercs or "AOR" units?

    Thanks,

    Antagonist
    "Society is going down the drain, and it's everybody's fault but ours."

    Arthurian Total War Developer

  28. #28
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    2,523

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Yes, that is the general idea.

    I intentionally have chosen 1570 for the beginning of the campaign which allows more reasonable choice ( Switzerland was pretty inactive since the early XVIth century).

    It is very good that Epistoliary Richard found the limit is 30 faction slots, 21 was somehow too strict in my opinion.

    Anyway unique units will appear in certain regions - Cossacks, Swiss, Czech even Bulgarian or Slavonian and will be available on certain conditions.

    I am going to use all hardcoded limits - we will see how many models are possible to us - that limits us more than the number of skins/generally units.

  29. #29
    Significante Member Antagonist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The utmost reaches of antiquity
    Posts
    495

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    I intentionally have chosen 1570 for the beginning of the campaign which allows more reasonable choice ( Switzerland was pretty inactive since the early XVIth century).
    Fair enough (I just like the Swiss and their pikes for some reason, I suppose their hour had passed by 1570) I'll miss them along with the Cossacks and Irish (I'd have loved to see the Nine Year's War, as it's called in Britain anyway, the new terrain system would be great for forest ambush battlemaps) but oh well, got to make the cuts somewhere.

    How are you going to handle the New World and colonial powers etc?

    Antagonist
    "Society is going down the drain, and it's everybody's fault but ours."

    Arthurian Total War Developer

  30. #30

    Default Re: The main thread - Pike and Musket TW - MTW2 edition

    Hi Cegorach and co.

    I'm a huge fan of your work and also very interested in this time period, especially Eastern Europe. I'm part Russian and have been doing some translation work for the OiM team, but their forums are currently down so I have no contact with them anymore.

    My question is about the Ukrainian cossacks (its a shame they aren't included, but I understand that other factions deserve to be in more than them;)). I read that they will be represented as AOR units. My question is are only Poland-Lithuania and Russia going to be able to recruit them, or anyone who holds the region?

    Thanks very much and can't wait for the mod:)

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO