New unit:mongol heavy archers

[Barbarossa82]

New Mongol Heavy Archers unit is up - http://www.totalwar.com/en/medieval2...vyarchers.html
I like the realistic look, but not very "mongol" to my eyes. But I know next to nothing about mongol history so maybe I'm wrong. Decent looking unit anyway.

[Orda Khan]

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

Orda kahn you are so stu*id .It is very mongol .The horse is mongol.The mongols used a lot different types of horses.The had light armor.

[Orda Khan]

Orda kahn you are so stu*id .It is very mongol .The horse is mongol.The mongols used a lot different types of horses.The had light armor.

I'll take this opportunity to remind you of forum rules shall I?

Please don't try to tell me this unit is anywhere close to an accurate depiction of a 'Mongol Heavy archer'. You should have read its description before mentioning the light armour which this unit has discarded in favour of lamellar, to enable them to withstand projectile fire etc. And btw that does not resemble Mongol lamellar armour either. Should I go further and also criticise the back quiver? Nomad quivers were enclosed, tubular and certainly not worn on the back!
In future keep your personal remarks to yourself

.......Orda

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

My man you don't heave experience so don't say things that are not true just because you want to say them.You read on the internet things that are not true:"In future keep your personal remarks to yourself" (Wrote by you)



To orda kahn from me

[Dutch_guy]

My man you don't heave experience so don't say things that are not true just because you want to say them.You read on the internet things that are not true:"In future keep your personal remarks to yourself" (Wrote by you)



To orda kahn from me

Hmm Orda is quite a respected member because of his extensive knowledge of the Step peoples, the Mongols and the such. So claiming he doesn't know a thing, based on absolutely nothing but an opinion, seems quite harsh and childish, don't you agree ?

[Temujin]

I'd say that depends on what army it's supposed to belong to. It doesn't look anything like one of Batu's boys, no, but it might work as a Jagathai fighting for the Timurids. It does look a little Persian to me.

[Tamur]

Just in case anyone's interested in doing some reading, here's a site from a fellow in Norway who has put together a lot of information in Old Mongolian research and information sharing...

http://www.coldsiberia.org/

And re: the hat, here are a couple of pictures of traditional horseman hats, which also appear in manuscript drawings of Mongol horsemen:





The clothing on the CA model does not look authentic as far as anything I've seen.

...and Dracula, calling someone (especially Orda on this point) stupid is really quite foolish. Refrain in the future.

[Doug-Thompson]

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

While I don't take it so hard, I have to agree with Orda on this one. The first thing that caught my eye is that the horse the guy's riding is no Mongol pony. The thing looks like a plowhorse.

The rider is far too heavily armored for hit and run, including the shield.

The stirrups are far too low. Mongol horse archers used high stirrips, like you'd find in professional horseraceing.

The quiver, IIRC, was attached to the saddle. Finally, the bow itself is missing the "ridges" near the end that gave Mongol bows their "snap." Oh, and then there's the matter of how Mongol HA had two bows — a long one for dismounted use and a smaller, handier one for horseback.

[caravel]

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

Of course Orda Khan says the truth, if he criticize the mongol cav model. The swiss teacher shouldn't affront other forum members And Orda Khan is a very honourable member.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

There are some mistakes there but you can't see them from that small picture from Totalwar.com.Who said that the mongols were using plate armour??????

[caravel]

I'm wondering if the eastern factions are again going to get the messy half hearted generic treatment that they got in MTW, or the generic and bland rendition of the 'barbarian' factions in RTW.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

You didn't see well look again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The mongol archer that CA made is not using plate armor.

[Quid]

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

No worries, I am not upset. Being a 'Swiss History teacher' myself I am all with Orda as I have learned in the past that he is mostly right conerning such discussions...

A bit ashamed that I have to contend with such people...He seems to have seen sense, however, so he can agree to disagree, which is fine.

On topic: I know next to nothing about how these horse archers looked as this is not my area of expertise. However, as mentioned before, I am with Orda on this as he has done (and still is doing) plenty of research on the subject.

Quid

[Sun of Chersonesos]

agreed

[Orda Khan]

Here is an example. Like Wizard says, original MTW did a better job and I am very disappointed with this poor depiction. I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

[econ21]

I agree the representation does not strike as a very Mongol-like and aesthetically is rather insipid.

However, I am sure there will be at least one Mongol "heavy cavalry" type unit that is equipped more along the lines of Orda Khan's photos - i.e. heavier armour, lance + armoured horse. The Golden Horse Heavy Cavalry in MTW did resemble those photos.

Based on the Russian and Byzantine faction previews, the Mongols may well have more than three horse units (archer, "heavy" archer, "heavy cavalry" + ???). For example, working off the horde units in BI, we might see a low level "herdsmen" type unit and an intermediate "lancer" type one.

[Kralizec]

This unit is a dissapointment, even more so because some of the other unit previews were quite good.

But it can be worse. I'm pretty sure I saw a screenshot somewhere titled "Mongol heavy lancers fighting [insert other unit]" in where the "Mongols" wore plate armour

[NagatsukaShumi]

Here is an example. Like Wizard says, original MTW did a better job and I am very disappointed with this poor depiction. I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

I see you have some pictures from the Royal Armouries Orda, its such an interesting place to visit and I love having a look at those Mongol peices everytime I go (I live in Leeds so, its quite regular!).

sorry I am being off topic, just wondered if Orda had been to see them himself or not.

[IrishArmenian]

Yes, looks good, but it is not very historical. I think they shood scrap the heavy armour, shield, and back quiver.
I think it looks a lot like a Hunnic rider, though.

[wraithdt]

Looking at it again it certainly looks more Turkic then Mongolian to me. Whats up with that quiver? Looks like this unit is gonna need a heavy make-over in MTR. As un-mongolian as it looks it still only one unit from the roster.

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

[Underdog687]

Unit it self looks nice but its not very mongol looking.

[Tiberius maximus]

not very impressive or intimidating i expected something a little heavier

[kiebop]

Whats the diffrent between huns and mongols

[Callahan9119]

i think they look fine...is it the exact image of what you would think on hearing the words mongol warrior?

no

but hearing the word "samurai" makes people conjur up images of the few elite warriors who dressed in the best armor available

maybe a more ethnic dress would be best, but this isnt for me to argue. they have simple available helms o9f the time, simple armor of the time and are pretty good looking, besides everyones various visions of what they would want the mongol to look like is an issue that could never be satisfied.

if they were rendered to all look the same, similar to previous tw games i would agree that more should be done to add an ethnic flavor to the unit. with the units looking pretty much different per individual...i thing the random armor commonly available in the times is a better fit

makes it more accurate to the hodge podge gear the classic "everyman" warrior would have worn

this is just my opinion, i respect the opinion of those who would like more detail to the units, yet i think it is a big upgrade in graphics and detail and looks pretty good...if the gameplay gets the same treatment i'll be a very happy man

[ciprianrusu]

That doesn't look like mongol to me either. I think that the helmet is the first thing that they should change.

[ajaxfetish]

I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

No worries. I'm sure most of us (myself certainly included) have a deep respect for your research and knowledge on the subject. It would take a significant weight of evidence to convince me you were mistaken on the subject of steppe warfare, and not even a shred was presented against you here.

Ajax

[Doug-Thompson]

It would take a significant weight of evidence to convince me you were mistaken on the subject of steppe warfare, and not even a shred was presented against you here.

Well said.

[Orda Khan]

I see you have some pictures from the Royal Armouries Orda, its such an interesting place to visit and I love having a look at those Mongol peices everytime I go (I live in Leeds so, its quite regular!).

Unfortunately, no. I must visit there some day though, if only to view that particular display. Higher on my list of priorities is the Hermitage, that is something I am working on, so maybe soon.

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

Royal Armouries in Leeds. I don't have a better shot but maybe NagatsukaShumi would post a nicer one? That is if he has one? Please NagatsukaShumi?

The photo is a Mongol heavy cavalryman and no doubt CA will produce an adequte representation just as they did for the Turks. The reason I posted that particular pic is the new units' name....'Mongol heavy archer'. Mongol heavy cav did carry bows. OK, to provide a selection of units CA has to come up with some names (remember steppe heavy cav?) to add variety.
I went over the top in mentioning the horse since it is obvious that horses are same skeleton, different colours and if it were just the horse model, I would not worry that much. Though I must admit, I see no obvious improvement in horses over BI. Check Blue Lotus screenshots if you want to see good looking horses (and some excellent Mongol units complete with Mongol hair style!!)

My main concern is that Mongols have been slapped together and have fallen well short of the attention payed to Euro factions. I can only assume that Mongol heavy cav will be reduced to lance and mace/sword?
The appearance of this unit is quite bland and not instantly recognisable as Mongol, even MTW presented Mongols wearing their familiar de'el which has changed little in centuries and attaching a leather neck guard/aventail to that helmet would improve it no end. Lamellar came in many and varied forms from a simple lacquered leather cuirass to the full metal example in the photo. Later early 14th Century Golden Horde finds show that brigandine style armour was in use,sewn into the clothing, extending to the limbs also and with mail aventail fixed to the usual eastern segmented helmet which probably possessed a horse hair or feather plume.
I only hope that the 'Mongol light archer', if that is what it will be named, looks more authentic. Hopefully it will include felt and leather armour and look the part
Edit:

I may have some...I'll have a look.

Just saw this. Would be great if you have, thank you NagatsukaShumi

.........Orda