New unit:mongol heavy archers

[wraithdt]

Looking at it again it certainly looks more Turkic then Mongolian to me. Whats up with that quiver? Looks like this unit is gonna need a heavy make-over in MTR. As un-mongolian as it looks it still only one unit from the roster.

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

[Furious Mental]

There are screenshots of Mongol and Timurid heavy cavalry. They do not wear plate armour. They wear lamellar armour.

[ajaxfetish]

I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

No worries. I'm sure most of us (myself certainly included) have a deep respect for your research and knowledge on the subject. It would take a significant weight of evidence to convince me you were mistaken on the subject of steppe warfare, and not even a shred was presented against you here.

Ajax

[Chad]

Baaaa who cares about the mongols
IT's about europe and the middle east

[caravel]

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

I'm afraid I have to agree 100% with Orda Khan. And if that upsets any Swiss history teachers, then so be it. I'm wondering if this is some kind of generic unit that will be renamed and used elsewhere for other types of Horse Archers, if so it's not good.

Of course Orda Khan says the truth, if he criticize the mongol cav model. The swiss teacher shouldn't affront other forum members And Orda Khan is a very honourable member.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

There are some mistakes there but you can't see them from that small picture from Totalwar.com.Who said that the mongols were using plate armour??????

[caravel]

I'm wondering if the eastern factions are again going to get the messy half hearted generic treatment that they got in MTW, or the generic and bland rendition of the 'barbarian' factions in RTW.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

You didn't see well look again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The mongol archer that CA made is not using plate armor.

[caravel]

?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Kralizec]

He's talking about my post, I said:

I'm pretty sure I saw a screenshot somewhere titled "Mongol heavy lancers fighting [insert other unit]" in where the "Mongols" wore plate armour

That was about a different unit, though. I haven't been able to find the screenshot again so I might recall wrongly.

Anyway, lots of different ethnicities fought in the "mongol" army, maybe his looks are more in line with what a Black Sea nomad would have looked like (doubt it though but I'll let a more knowledgable person answer that) and as Leet Erikson said men in a unit look differt from eachother, so that the units are actually ethincly pluriform. But I'm guessing that Mongol units were sorted by ethnicity, so it feels like I'm grasping at straws here.

Did someone else notice that the quiver on his back is completely flat? CA did a quite sloppy job here.

[Doug-Thompson]

It would take a significant weight of evidence to convince me you were mistaken on the subject of steppe warfare, and not even a shred was presented against you here.

Well said.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

They are from the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, I may have some...I'll have a look.

[kataphraktoi]

You didn't see well look again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The mongol archer that CA made is not using plate armor.

This joker's speech pattern and attitude is more like a 12 yr old newbie with a computer trying to act tough...if he's a Swiss teacher, something must be wrong with the education system as this guy is an insult to the Swiss education system.

How about providing some evidence...history teacher?

In a debate this guy would be imPALED by Orda....pun intended

[Orda Khan]

I see you have some pictures from the Royal Armouries Orda, its such an interesting place to visit and I love having a look at those Mongol peices everytime I go (I live in Leeds so, its quite regular!).

Unfortunately, no. I must visit there some day though, if only to view that particular display. Higher on my list of priorities is the Hermitage, that is something I am working on, so maybe soon.

Orda: Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

Royal Armouries in Leeds. I don't have a better shot but maybe NagatsukaShumi would post a nicer one? That is if he has one? Please NagatsukaShumi?

The photo is a Mongol heavy cavalryman and no doubt CA will produce an adequte representation just as they did for the Turks. The reason I posted that particular pic is the new units' name....'Mongol heavy archer'. Mongol heavy cav did carry bows. OK, to provide a selection of units CA has to come up with some names (remember steppe heavy cav?) to add variety.
I went over the top in mentioning the horse since it is obvious that horses are same skeleton, different colours and if it were just the horse model, I would not worry that much. Though I must admit, I see no obvious improvement in horses over BI. Check Blue Lotus screenshots if you want to see good looking horses (and some excellent Mongol units complete with Mongol hair style!!)

My main concern is that Mongols have been slapped together and have fallen well short of the attention payed to Euro factions. I can only assume that Mongol heavy cav will be reduced to lance and mace/sword?
The appearance of this unit is quite bland and not instantly recognisable as Mongol, even MTW presented Mongols wearing their familiar de'el which has changed little in centuries and attaching a leather neck guard/aventail to that helmet would improve it no end. Lamellar came in many and varied forms from a simple lacquered leather cuirass to the full metal example in the photo. Later early 14th Century Golden Horde finds show that brigandine style armour was in use,sewn into the clothing, extending to the limbs also and with mail aventail fixed to the usual eastern segmented helmet which probably possessed a horse hair or feather plume.
I only hope that the 'Mongol light archer', if that is what it will be named, looks more authentic. Hopefully it will include felt and leather armour and look the part
Edit:

I may have some...I'll have a look.

Just saw this. Would be great if you have, thank you NagatsukaShumi

.........Orda

[Furious Mental]

Look at screenshots of Mongol infantry. Some of them wear that helmet. Others wear helmets with neck guards, or fur hats. Probably easy to mod the headgear if one doesn't like it. If you want to know what Mongol light cavalry are likely to look like then I'd suggest looking at the Russian faction preview on IGN. Obviously I'm assuming that the steppe units will, indeed, be generic. Compare the Mongol and Timurid units- they appear to be basically the same. Except for the cannon elephants.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

The helmet is mongol.I will post pictures sonn .I just need to find them.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...?TID=3882&PN=1
Here you will see that mongols had a lot different types of helmets.And the horse is not like mongol pony BUT after the expansion of their empire they didn't had where to get all the times mongol pony so they used a lot different types of horses.

[Orda Khan]

I prefer to study archaeological finds for historical evidence than T.V programmes which invariably contain poetic licence. Maybe the person who posted the pictures should visit Inner Mongolia and speak to some of the few 'Mongols' who live there to find out just how 'Mongol' it is. It isn't but it is very Chinese and if you look further you will find that Chingis Khan is being claimed as Chinese by means of extremely spurious argument.
The Mongols did indeed use a variation of mount, as I have argued myself. Not all were ponies by todays classification which is 14.2 HH, the Akhal-Teke is around 15.2 HH but none were as large as the Destrier which this rendition is. I can not think of a horse that size in any area that was subjugated at that time,
ie Batu's invasion

......Orda

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

Orda Let's Make Peace.i Don't Want To Argue Anymore
I Like The Game How It Is.maybe I Will Play It And I Will Use It For Simulator Too .you Have More Experince In Gaming Than Me,so I Will Trust What You Say About The Game In Future.



Peace.

[wraithdt]

Orda is the leading scholar on Mongolian and Steppe history around here and is more of an experienced historian then he is a gamer (at least thats what I assume). Make peace with that.

(p.s I mean no offence about the gamer remark if you are indeed a gamer, Orda)

[IrishArmenian]

Wraithdt, I assume he is a gamer as this site is based on a series of games.

[econ21]

Let's get back to topic, please.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

doesn't look mongol

[Ser Clegane]

Awesome photos of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. Got any Hi-rez ones? Which museum is that from?

This website has some pictures from the Royal Armouries, including one of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry (the helmet can not be seen very clearly, though)

[Ringeck]

I wouldn't worry about the mongols "getting slapped together". The irritation Orda feels at the unit is exactly the same irritation I felt when seeing the "Huscarl" or hearing about "Danish War Clerics", or looking at armoured swordsmen wearing enclosed sugarloaf helmets. CA's research level has been known for a long time. Why be surprised?

[caravel]

I wouldn't worry about the mongols "getting slapped together". The irritation Orda feels at the unit is exactly the same irritation I felt when seeing the "Huscarl" or hearing about "Danish War Clerics", or looking at armoured swordsmen wearing enclosed sugarloaf helmets. CA's research level has been known for a long time. Why be surprised?

Exactly. Those of us wanting historical accuracy and realism will have to wait for the various realism mods. I've a feeling that this is going to be the norm from now on.

[Underdog687]

Unit it self looks nice but its not very mongol looking.

[SpencerH]

I remember being very surprised (many years ago now) when I saw just how small the mongol ponies were. In fact, I've met one (uncommon) Mongolian physician here who'se feet would've dragged on the ground trying to ride the things. I think one has to admit that the sight of even a small man riding a pony is not awe inspiring.

[Cebei]

I think I will have a heart attack when I see Turkish units.