Fighting on the eastern front: WWII

[Reverend Joe]

What you don't really take into account is that the Soviets 1) started the war with crap machinery and 2) used a lot of mass assault tactics, because they relied so heavily on levies.

And you may point out the staggering losses, but you do not point out the important factor, in the long run: it worked. Ghastly and bloody as hell, but it worked. The Russians could afford to lost many times as many conscripts as the Elite german armies, who had one hell of a time training new soldiers up to the crack level they had once had.

[Strike For The South]

THE GERMANS WERE NOT SUPER SOLDIERS. As for the Russikes high losses they can be to attributed to the fact they were commies and to the fact that all commies suck enso facto Russikes suck. Besides America won WW2 single handedly with no help. If you disagree you are a commie and as mentioned in said post you SUCK!

[BalkanTourist]

I am sorry, I have to say this, but I had a lot more respect for you, SFTS. That's a very childish post.

[Strike For The South]

I am sorry, I have to say this, but I had a lot more respect for you, SFTS. That's a very childish post.

Ahh that may be but I know AOM in real life and his German supersoldiers get tiresome. Yes the Germans were better in nearly everyway but the Russians had #s cliamate and they were fighting for there very survuvial. I doubt the Germans couldve have ever taken the Russian bear down excluding an equal strong japeneese force coming in from Sibera. Even then the Russian bear is a very formidable foe.

[Keba]

Victory was possible ... in fact, victory only ceased to be possible following Operation Citadel, the battle of Kursk. At that point, the Germans finally went on the defensive, however, prior to that, they had the chance. In fact, had it not been for Hitler's intention to rip Yugoslavia apart and aid Italy in Greece, he would have had that extra month that the Germans needed. As it turned out, the Eastern Front was one series of bungles following a series of bungles. It was like that on both sides, except that Stalin learned to listen to his officers ... Hitler never did.

The German's weren't supersoldiers. However, on their side they had discpline, training, equipment and skilled officers. The Russians had numbers, numbers, numbers, ruthless but efficient soldiers, weather, weather and will.

Now, the Russians could have won a lot earlier, too. The battle for Moscow was their second chance (the first was the defensive line abandoned following the conquest of Poland) ... had Stalin not ordered an attack across the front, the Soviets could have punched through German lines and driven them a fair way back, threatning Army Groups North and South's flanks.

[Gurkhal]

I don't think that the Russians could've forced the Germans back more than temporary in winter 41 and spring 42. The Germans were far to strong and the Russians to unskilled in mobile offensive warfare to encircle the Germans and be able to hold them inside for a longer time. That do not exclude the possibility that with a more limited offensive the Sovjets could have taken some key areas and jammed the German summer offensive a fair bit as well as having more forces left to fight said German offensive.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ah..the great debate resurfaces once more.

Could the Germans have defeated Soviet Russia?

Good sources for the argument:

Hitler's Panzers East: World War II Reinterpreted, by Russell H.S. Stolfi. University of Oklahoma Press, 1991. Hardcover. 280 pages. Photographs. Maps. Notes. Bibliography. Index.

-- argues that the Wermacht had the tools and Hitler had the will, but that Hitler did not have the nerve to follow through properly with a Blitz.

Slaughterhouse: Handbook of the Eastern Front, by David Glantz, et. al. Aberjona Press.

-- a more conventional view, but emphasizing the many operations that have not received the publicity of major actions such as those at Lenigrad and Stalingrad. Some interesting things on Soviet defeats in '42 and '43 as their new mechanized forces learned their trade.

[Pontifex Rex]

Victory was possible ... in fact, victory only ceased to be possible following Operation Citadel, the battle of Kursk. At that point, the Germans finally went on the defensive, however, prior to that, they had the chance. In fact, had it not been for Hitler's intention to rip Yugoslavia apart and aid Italy in Greece, he would have had that extra month that the Germans needed. As it turned out, the Eastern Front was one series of bungles following a series of bungles. It was like that on both sides, except that Stalin learned to listen to his officers ... Hitler never did.

Not really true accept in being true to the myth. The spring of 1941 came late and the rains stayed longer than normal. Guderian himself has stated that they could not have attacked sooner since the rivers were still swollen (in particular the Bug) and the ground too soft in Poland and East Prussia for large scale movement of armoured units.

The German's weren't supersoldiers. However, on their side they had discpline, training, equipment and skilled officers. The Russians had numbers, numbers, numbers, ruthless but efficient soldiers, weather, weather and will.

It should also be added that the Red Army was in the process of a series of reforms and that the purges of the army had hurt badly. The learning curve was steep but one can clearly see the improvement in the combat techniques as early as Nov 1941. By late 1942 they are beginning to put into practice the operational doctrine known as "Deep Battle" which would prove to be far superior to blitzkrieg and better than anything developed by the western allies. The weather and Russian numbers are the old excuses of the defeated German officers and offer only a simplistic view of a hugely complex issue.

Now, the Russians could have won a lot earlier, too. The battle for Moscow was their second chance (the first was the defensive line abandoned following the conquest of Poland) ... had Stalin not ordered an attack across the front, the Soviets could have punched through German lines and driven them a fair way back, threatning Army Groups North and South's flanks.

That is debatable. The numbers in front of Moscow were not all that much in favour of the Red Army but the expansion of the effort to a front-wide offensive did weaken the advantages that the Red Army had. In June 1941 the Red Army was simply not properly trained or supplied to take the offensive and by December, while some of the less talented officers were gone the unit commanders were generally two grades above their skill level (battalion commanders commanding brigades or divisons) and thus there was a need for tighter controls. The Red Army would learn and it was in learning that they were able to defeat the Nazis. After all, if it was just numbers the Red Army would have won in 1941.