Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 86

Thread: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

  1. #1
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Exclamation Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    According to Donald Rumsfeld, people who criticise the current administration's Iraq policies are appeasing a "new type of fascism." Yes, that's right -- if you disagree with any element of the Bush administration's policies on Iraq and remaking the middle east, you're an appeasement monkey. But wait, there's more:

    In some unusually blunt terms, Rumsfeld says the administration's detractors suffer from "moral and intellectual confusion" about global security threats and he says they lack the courage to fight back.

    Unfortunately for the Backroom, I think everyone in here has been critical of at least some small part of the conduct of the Iraq war. I hate to say it, but we're all fascist appeasers. You heard it here first.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    4,353

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Damn, and I was just getting used to "leftist"...

    Big Don R. outdid you Divinus Arma...

  3. #3
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Northville, Michigan
    Posts
    4,259

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    According to Donald Rumsfeld, people who criticise the current administration's Iraq policies are appeasing a "new type of fascism." Yes, that's right -- if you disagree with any element of the Bush administration's policies on Iraq and remaking the middle east, you're an appeasement monkey. But wait, there's more:

    In some unusually blunt terms, Rumsfeld says the administration's detractors suffer from "moral and intellectual confusion" about global security threats and he says they lack the courage to fight back.

    Unfortunately for the Backroom, I think everyone in here has been critical of at least some small part of the conduct of the Iraq war. I hate to say it, but we're all fascist appeasers. You heard it here first.
    It must be that 25% German and 50% Italian in my blood. I just can't help myself.



  4. #4

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    yuk yuk. You guys just dont get it. Talk about taking it out of context. There is nothing wrong with discussing policy, but have an alternative. Abandoning Iraq to the wolves will make it a terrorist playground. For now, it acts as a roach motel. The islamofascists go there to die.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    For now, it acts as a roach motel. The islamofascists go there to die.

    Really , I thought the Pentagon assesment was that they were going there , learning on the job terrorism and then moving on to bring terrorism to other places .
    I thought it was mainly ordinary Iraqis that were getting killed , not the Islamofascists ,but hey maybe I am wrong and ever increasing monthly totals of civilians getting blown apart , kidnapped and murdered in all sorts of interesting ways are not really locals , they are IslamoFascists on holiday
    You guys just dont get it.
    You don't get it at all Divinus , you just repeat the same old worn out catchphrases.

  6. #6
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Any copy of his whole speech, and not the reporter-summarized version?

    Its the article that says critics of policies- it appears, from the brief quotes, than D Rumsfield is actually talking about those who want to pull out and appease the terrorists.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  7. #7
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    1,924

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    See, even if this 'roach motel' theory has grounds in reality, I wonder about the morality of bringing a war to a nation that had nothing to do w/ terrorism, and choosing their civilians to die, rather than the possiblity of ours dying...
    Last edited by Kanamori; 08-30-2006 at 00:22.

  8. #8
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    in the cloud.
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Any copy of his whole speech, and not the reporter-summarized version?

    Its the article that says critics of policies- it appears, from the brief quotes, than D Rumsfield is actually talking about those who want to pull out and appease the terrorists.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Yeah, a full text would be alot more useful than brief snippets. Heck, the video link in the story (which I watched hoping to see some context) doesnt even contain the quotes they used in the article.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  9. #9
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    818

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    See, even if this 'roach motel' theory has grounds in reality, I wonder about the morality of bringing a war to a nation that had nothing to do w/ terrorism, and choosing their civilians to die, rather than the possiblity of ours dying...
    Hey, it's the War on Terror. When they kill civilians they're responsible. And if our actions against terror cause civilian deaths the terrorists are still responsible. All the better if it's not even our civilians dying. We can't lose!
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanamori
    See, even if this 'roach motel' theory has grounds in reality, I wonder about the morality of bringing a war to a nation that had nothing to do w/ terrorism, and choosing their civilians to die, rather than the possiblity of ours dying...
    That was not the initial intent, but it is the current reality.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  11. #11
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Cool Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    I hear the Backroom saying, "More, give us more Holwin' Don Rumsfeld!" Your wish is my command. The full text of his speech. (In fairness, I have no idea if this is an accurate transcript, a prepared release by the DoD (those are known to vary from the actual speech given) or what. But it appears to be the speech referenced, so it's better than nothing.)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Tom [American Legion Commander Tom Bock], I understand that your son is flying a Chinook in Iraq -- following in his dad’s proud tradition of military service. Our country is deeply grateful to him -- and to all of you who have children or relatives serving in our nation’s military.

    They are in our thoughts and prayers. Please tell them we appreciate all they do for our country.

    I thank each of you for the love and support you provide for our troops every day.

    No one is more proud of those young people than their Commander-in-Chief. I know that President Bush is looking forward to being with you on Thursday.

    We are truly fortunate to have a leader of resolve at a time of war. Through all the challenges, he remains the same man who stood atop the rubble of lower Manhattan, with a bullhorn, vowing to fight back; the leader who told a grieving nation that we will never forget what was lost; and the determined President who works every day to fulfill his vow to bring the enemy to justice or to bring justice to the enemy.

    Our nation is so fortunate to have the American Legion standing up for all those who are serving our country in this time of testing.

    About a year ago, I participated in the dedication of the World War II Memorial in Washington, D.C. And when I looked out into the audience, I could see a great many American Legion caps. It was a reminder of the millions who sacrificed for our country, so many of whom did not come home.

    And it was also a reminder of all that American Legionnaires do to for our servicemen and women. Indeed, through nearly nine decades of service, the American Legion continues to find new ways and to undertake new initiatives to embody their motto: “For God and Country.”

    The Department of Defense is proud to be a partner with you in the “Heroes to Hometowns” program, which is helping severely wounded veterans with job searches, their homes, and other activities to aid the transition to civilian life. Your partnership with the “The America Supports You” campaign helps communities, organizations, and individuals across this nation express their appreciation to our troops, and to their families.

    And, on a personal note, I commend the American Legion for its sponsorship of the Boy Scouts. I know there are some places where Boy Scouts are a subject of scorn.

    Well, I was a proud Cub Scout, then a Boy Scout; then an Explorer Scout; an Eagle Scout; and, in 1975, a Distinguished Eagle Scout. The Scouts represent some of the best qualities in our great country -- and they certainly deserve our support!

    The American Legion has achieved a great deal for our country since its founding in the months following World War I, when those folks came together in a hotel in Europe to find a way to help some of their fellow veterans who would be coming home soon.

    Indeed, that year -- 1919 -- turned out to be one of those pivotal junctures in modern history -- with the signing of the Treaty of Versailles and the creation of the League of Nations -- a treaty and an organization intended to make future wars unnecessary and obsolete.

    Indeed, 1919 was the beginning of a period where, over time, a very different set of views would come to dominate discourse and thinking in the west.

    Over the next decades, a sentiment took root that contended that if only the growing threats that had begun to emerge in Europe and Asia could be appeased, then the carnage and destruction of then-recent memory of World War I might be avoided. It was a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among the western democracies. When those who warned about a coming crisis -- the rise of fascism and Nazism -- were ridiculed and ignored.

    Indeed, in the decades before World War II, a great many argued that the fascist threat was exaggerated -- or that it was someone else’s problem. Some nations tried to negotiate a separate peace -- even as the enemy made its deadly ambitions crystal clear.

    It was, as Churchill observed, a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last.

    There was a strange innocence in views of the world. Someone recently recalled one U.S. Senator’s reaction in September 1939, upon hearing that Hitler had invaded Poland to start World War II. He exclaimed:

    "Lord, if only I could have talked with Hitler, all this might have been avoided.”

    Think of that!

    I recount this history because once again we face the same kind of challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism.

    Today, another enemy -- a different kind of enemy -- has also made clear its intentions -- in places like New York, Washington, D.C., Bali, London, Madrid, and Moscow. But it is apparent that many have still not learned history’s lessons.

    We need to face the following questions:

    # With the growing lethality and availability of weapons, can we truly afford to believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased?

    # Can we really continue to think that free countries can negotiate a separate peace with terrorists?

    # Can we truly afford the luxury of pretending that the threats today are simply “law enforcement” problems, rather than fundamentally different threats, requiring fundamentally different approaches?

    # And can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that America -- not the enemy -- is the real source of the world’s trouble?

    These are central questions of our time. And we must face them.

    We hear everyday of new plans, new efforts, to murder Americans and other free people. Indeed, the plot recently discovered that would have killed hundreds -- possibly thousands -- of innocent men, women, and children on planes coming from Britain to the United States should have demonstrated to all that the enemy is serious, lethal, and relentless.

    But this is still -- in 2006 -- not well recognized or fully understood. It seems that in some quarters there is more of a focus on dividing our country, than acting with unity against the gathering threats.

    We find ourselves in a strange time:

    When a database search of America’s leading newspapers turns up 10 times as many mentions of one of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib who was punished for misconduct, than mentions of Sergeant First Class Paul Ray Smith, the first recipient of the Medal of Honor in the Global War on Terror;

    When a senior editor at Newsweek disparagingly refers to the brave volunteers in our Armed Forces as a “mercenary army”;

    When the former head of CNN accuses the American military of deliberately targeting journalists and the former CNN Baghdad bureau chief admits he concealed reports of Saddam Hussein’s crimes when he was in power so CNN could stay in Iraq; and It is a time when Amnesty International disgracefully refers to the military facility at Guantanamo Bay, which holds terrorists who have vowed to kill Americans and which is arguably the best run and most scrutinized detention facility in the history of warfare, as “the gulag of our times.”

    Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths, and lies, and distortions being told about our troops and our country.

    The struggle we are in is too important -- the consequences too severe -- to have the luxury of returning to the old mentality of “Blame America First.”

    One of the most important things the Legion has done is not only to serve, and assist, and advocate as you’ve done so superbly for much of the past century -- but also to educate and speak the truth about our country and our military.

    Not so long ago, an exhibit on the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian during the 1990s seemed to try to rewrite the history of World War II by portraying the United States as an aggressor. Fortunately, the American Legion was there to lead the effort to set the record straight.

    This watchdog role is even more important today in a war that is to a great extent fought in the media on a global stage -- to not allow the lies and the myths be repeated without question or challenge -- so that at least the second and third draft of history will be more accurate than the quick first allegations.

    You know from experience that in every war there have been mistakes and setbacks and casualties. War is, as Clemenceau said, a “series of catastrophes that results in victory.”

    And in every army, there are occasionally bad actors -- the ones who dominate the headlines today -- who don’t live up to the standards of their oath and of our country.

    But you also know that they are a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of honorable men and women in all theaters in this struggle who are serving with humanity and decency in the face of constant provocation.

    And that is important in this “long war,” where any kind of moral and intellectual confusion about who and what is right or wrong can severely weaken the ability of free societies to persevere.

    Our enemy knows this well. They frequently invoke the names of Beirut and Somalia -- places they see as examples of American retreat and weakness. And as we have seen most recently -- indeed, this month -- in Lebanon, they design attacks and manipulate the media to try to demoralize public opinion. They doctor photographs of casualties, use civilians as human shields and then provoke an outcry when civilians are accidentally killed in their midst.

    The good news is that most of the American people, though understandably influenced by what they read and see in the media, have inner gyroscopes and good centers of gravity.

    And I am confident that over time they will evaluate and reflect on what is happening in this struggle and come to wise conclusions.

    In Iraq, a country that was brutalized and traumatized by a cruel and dangerous dictatorship is now undertaking the slow, difficult, and uncertain steps to secure a new future, under a representative government -- one that is at peace with its neighbors, rather than a threat to their own people, their neighbors, and to the world.

    As the nature of the threat and the conflict in Iraq has changed over these past three years, so have the tactics and deployments. But while military tactics have changed and adapted to the realities on the ground, the strategy has not -- which is to empower the Iraqi people to defend, govern, and rebuild their own country.

    The extremists themselves have called Iraq the “epicenter” in the War on Terror. They mean it. And our troops know how important completing the mission is.

    A Soldier who recently volunteered for a second tour in Iraq, likely captured the feelings of many of his peers. In an e-mail to friends he wrote:

    “I ask that you never take advantage of the liberties guaranteed by the shedding of free blood, never take for granted the freedoms granted by our Constitution. For those liberties would be merely ink on paper were it not for the sacrifice of generations of Americans who heard the call of duty and responded heart, mind and soul with ‘Yes, I will.’”

    Someday that young man may be a member of the American Legion, attending a convention such as this. I hope he will be. And one day, a future speaker may reflect back on this time of historic choice -- remembering the questions raised as to our country’s courage, dedication, and willingness to continue this fight until we have prevailed.

    I believe the question is not whether we can win. It is whether we have the will to persevere.

    I believe that Americans do have that steel. And that we have learned the lessons of history, the folly of turning a blind eye to danger, and of ignoring our responsibilities. These are lessons you know well -- lessons that your heroism has taught to generations of Americans.

    May God bless each of you. May God bless the men and women in uniform and their families. And may God continue to bless our wonderful country.
    Last edited by Lemur; 08-30-2006 at 03:18.

  12. #12
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    in the cloud.
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Yes, that's right -- if you disagree with any element of the Bush administration's policies on Iraq and remaking the middle east, you're an appeasement monkey.
    So.... where does he say that?

    After a quick skim, I think it was a pretty good speech on the balance.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  13. #13
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    As I said, I'm not certain this is the speech referenced, and I'm not sure the transcript is accurate. After a quick skim, Howlin' Don Rumsfeld moves from discussing fascist appeasers in the U.S. Senate and immediately asks one of his patented rhetorical questions:

    # With the growing lethality and availability of weapons, can we truly afford to believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased?

    So we have appeasement of Hitler paired up with appeasement of terrorists. He also carelessly mixes up the viewpoint that the terror fight is about intel and law enforcement with the Blame America First crowd; the former is a legitimate strategy, the latter is not.

    Anyway, if time permits I'll dig around for some more transcripts, since this one doesn't seem to be an exact match. I note with deep amusement that he's back to blaming the media for the Iraq war's low polls.

  14. #14
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    I liked this part, being a former scout...

    Well, I was a proud Cub Scout, then a Boy Scout; then an Explorer Scout; an Eagle Scout; and, in 1975, a Distinguished Eagle Scout. The Scouts represent some of the best qualities in our great country -- and they certainly deserve our support!
    ... and knowing how it was created by a Brit. I have to agree that the best values of the US are created by foreigners, specially value for money Chinese goods.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  15. #15
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    in the cloud.
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    When a database search of America’s leading newspapers turns up 10 times as many mentions of one of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib who was punished for misconduct, than mentions of Sergeant First Class Paul Ray Smith, the first recipient of the Medal of Honor in the Global War on Terror;
    I think he has a fair point. I cant say that Ive ever heard of Paul Ray Smith, and I certainly dont remember hearing what he did to earn the Medal of Honor. It used to be that highly decorated soldiers were virtually idolized- now we dont even know who they are since the media seems completely pre-occuppied with covering US attrocities and mis-steps. I wonder if we'd know who Sergeant York was with today's media coverage?

    Maybe Rummy is partly to blame for this- but I really dont think you'd be slapping him on the back if he started sponsoring propaganda news reels ala WW2 either.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  16. #16
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Bad news to good news in any newspaper is generally an order of magnitude more... unless you want to read some sandal wearing hippy newspaper that is made from recycled toilet paper that has editorials on Karma and ads for Soul Cleansing Enema Crystals , are you that kind of Orgah? Well are ya?
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  17. #17
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Here's yet another summation of his speech, as posted by that hotbed of liberalism, military.com:

    Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Tuesday accused critics of the Bush administration's Iraq and counterterrorism policies of trying to appease "a new type of fascism."

    In unusually explicit terms, Rumsfeld portrayed the administration's critics as suffering from "moral or intellectual confusion" about what threatens the nation's security and accused them of lacking the courage to fight back.

    Linky. So I think I'll stand by the thread title -- if you criticise, regardless of whether or not you have an alternate strategy -- you are an appeasement monkey. Live with it, Xiahou. I'm going to mail you your very own red "A".

    [edit]

    I'm tickled by one of the respondents in the Military.com discussion board:

    Well Mr. Rumsfeld, thats what we get for living in a Democracy "CRITICS." We also have this little thing (thats incidentally written into our Constitution and Bill of Rights) called "Free Press." Sounds to me Mr. Rumsfeld that you would like to subvert these freedoms, and make us no better than the terrorists we are fighting. Mr. Rumsfeld, Cuba-China-Russia-Iran, may all agree with you here, but we Americans and people of free country's certainly don't. If people want to disagree with the way this war on terrorism is being conducted by yourself and your band of 30/40-something appointed pentagon civilians, who trump the better advice of experienced senior military officers, we have every right to do so, because it seems it could be handled a whole lot better than it is.

    And the one from marinegrunt99 is a beaut:

    The comparison between, Hitler and Bin Laddin, is not logical, nor connected, and outside the scope of reason, it insults my intelligence to attempt to link the two! The term "appeasement" used in this matter, would indicate that the American people agree with our enemy, which is not the case, we disagree with the abject failure of this Administration way it is handling this war! It is just one more "play on words" meant to throw the American people off track!

    First, the occupation of Iraq, or all the other lunitic reason's we've been told for this war have all proved wrong! Second, American's have the god give right to express our beliefs, if we disagree with who ever is in power that validates the power we have been given in our Constitution. Our elected officials serve us like any employee of a business, if an employee turns out not to be able to do the job we simply fire him in the next election! For our employee's in the White House, to put out this garbage that we are disloyal or consenting to "Appeasement" because we disagree with one failed policy after another is pure hog wash!

    This Administration has failed in their every attempt to validate or prove to us, thier employer's, every last thing they have done to date, i.e., to occupy a country that did absolutely nothing to the United States! If I am wrong, someone please tell me one policy that has worked! If you can't, then please look at the truth or the light of reason. This isn't about our emotional attachment to our flag or to the United States of America, it is about FAILURE on every aspect of this issue, by this Administration! This is the first president in the history of this country that persists to "Stay the course", which has been proven to be wrong, over and over and over, including every reason we have been given for starting this war in the first place.
    Last edited by Lemur; 08-30-2006 at 06:00.

  18. #18
    Member Member Kanamori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    1,924

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    I think he has a fair point. I cant say that Ive ever heard of Paul Ray Smith, and I certainly dont remember hearing what he did to earn the Medal of Honor. It used to be that highly decorated soldiers were virtually idolized- now we dont even know who they are since the media seems completely pre-occuppied with covering US attrocities and mis-steps. I wonder if we'd know who Sergeant York was with today's media coverage?
    I would hardly like to read an exhaustive coverage of the 'news', whatever the news may be. It would be an obviously stupid thing to say that the media does not pick and choose which stories to cover. If people cannot understand that things may go on that are not reported, it is not the media's fault, although the wise may consider looking for better news sources. There's an argument that I hear often running through my head now, what is it? Oh yes, I know: "We should get the government to interfere in these private matters of running business, because the people need to be helped along and shown what the real, government-sponsored, news is." It is the fault of those who cannot fathom a reality beyond what they are shown; the media is likely not lying.

    That was not the initial intent, but it is the current reality.
    It seems that you would agree that it is not a good thing that it is a 'roach motel'? I don't think that we should pat ourselves on the back over the appalling situation that the Iraqis are in. It seems that the new efforts of intel have been much more effective at curbing terrorism than Operation Iraqi Freedom has been.
    Last edited by Kanamori; 08-30-2006 at 06:52.

  19. #19
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    in the cloud.
    Posts
    9,007

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Here's yet another summation of his speech, as posted by that hotbed of liberalism, military.com:
    So I think I'll stand by the thread title -- if you criticise, regardless of whether or not you have an alternate strategy -- you are an appeasement monkey. Live with it, Xiahou. I'm going to mail you your very own red "A".
    Hotbed of liberalism or no, it's still just regurgitating the same AP story that appears almost word for word in your original post, including the same out of context quotes.

    As for the thread, and your original post:
    Yes, that's right -- if you disagree with any element of the Bush administration's policies on Iraq and remaking the middle east, you're an appeasement monkey.
    Its still unsubstantiated by the actual text of the speech as provided by you.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 08-30-2006 at 06:29.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  20. #20
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Anyway, if time permits I'll dig around for some more transcripts, since this one doesn't seem to be an exact match. I note with deep amusement that he's back to blaming the media for the Iraq war's low polls.
    I seem to recall a very recent poll of Iraqis were more Iraqis than Americans thought Iraq was going in the right direction. I'll admit I can't find it as of right now, though.

    And Lemur, that's an AP article at military.com- one of the good ole boy MSM. And it starts out very much like the original article of yours, and still provides no actual quotes-just the reporter's summary. Soon you'll be telling me the rust is from missile shrapnel.

    Of course, once the MSM gains steam, it never lets little petty facts slow it down.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  21. #21
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Actually reading multiple paragraphs:

    Indeed, in the decades before World War II, a great many argued that the fascist threat was exaggerated -- or that it was someone else’s problem. Some nations tried to negotiate a separate peace -- even as the enemy made its deadly ambitions crystal clear.

    It was, as Churchill observed, a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last.

    There was a strange innocence in views of the world. Someone recently recalled one U.S. Senator’s reaction in September 1939, upon hearing that Hitler had invaded Poland to start World War II. He exclaimed:

    "Lord, if only I could have talked with Hitler, all this might have been avoided.”

    Think of that!

    I recount this history because once again we face the same kind of challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism.

    Today, another enemy -- a different kind of enemy -- has also made clear its intentions -- in places like New York, Washington, D.C., Bali, London, Madrid, and Moscow. But it is apparent that many have still not learned history’s lessons.
    We need to face the following questions:

    # With the growing lethality and availability of weapons, can we truly afford to believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased?

    # Can we really continue to think that free countries can negotiate a separate peace with terrorists?

    # Can we truly afford the luxury of pretending that the threats today are simply “law enforcement” problems, rather than fundamentally different threats, requiring fundamentally different approaches?

    # And can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that America -- not the enemy -- is the real source of the world’s trouble?

    These are central questions of our time. And we must face them.
    Those are beats in the theme of appeasement.

    But this is still -- in 2006 -- not well recognized or fully understood. It seems that in some quarters there is more of a focus on dividing our country, than acting with unity against the gathering threats.
    And this would be one of the notes that you are either with the current Admin policy or you are trying to divide the countries unity (which would be termed in a time of war?).
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    I seem to recall a very recent poll of Iraqis were more Iraqis than Americans thought Iraq was going in the right direction. I'll admit I can't find it as of right now, though.

    Would those be the more Iraqis who voted for the Supreme council for Islamic revolution whose right direction would be an iranian backed Shia dominated islamic fundamentalist state , those who voted for the Mahdi Army whose right direction would be a Shia dominated Islamic fundamentalist state , or would it be those Iraqis who voted for the breakup of the country into little ethnically pure states run by their own friendly little terrorist groups .
    So before you say they think they are going in the "right direction" consider what the direction is and if it is what the coilition wanted when it went in and if it would be beneficial for the country and the region .
    Now forgive me if I am wrong , but I don't recall the aims of this war being to strengthen Irans position and widen its influence or to create ethnic conflict that will spread throughout the region .
    But hey , maybe that was Rummys secret plan all along and I just didn't get it .
    So remember , stay the course , forward to oblivion , we are killing them over there so that we don't have to ...errrr.......whats the last bit again ?

  23. #23
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    LA, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,454

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    I am a bigger supporter of this administration than most (mostly because the alternatives to get anything done are non-existent) but I criticize all the time, often about Iraq and Rummy’s decisions there. Let me continue my criticism of this administration by saying that I don’t think DR should make sweeping generalizations about the people’s criticism of the disappointing work that has been done in Iraq. Don’t want to get criticized? Do things right. That’s the way it works at my job. There is a difference between throwing stones and offering constructive criticism, Perhaps DR should pay more attention to the later.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

  24. #24
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Hotbed of liberalism or no, it's still just regurgitating the same AP story that appears almost word for word in your original post, including the same out of context quotes.

    As for the thread, and your original post:Its still unsubstantiated by the actual text of the speech as provided by you.
    This is turning interesting. It appears that the transcript is the speech referenced, and both the MSM and DoD are issuing "clarifications." The latest revision of the AP story reads thusly:

    Rumsfeld alluded to critics of the Bush administration's war policies in terms associated with the failure to stop Nazism in the 1930s, "a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among the Western democracies."

    Without explicitly citing Bush critics at home or abroad, he said "it is apparent that many have still not learned history's lessons." Aides to Rumsfeld said later he was not accusing the administration's critics of trying to appease the terrorists but was cautioning against a repeat of errors made in earlier eras.

    So the AP is "clarifying," and so is Rumsfeld's staff, when they state that "he was not accusing the administration's critics of trying to appease the terrorists," when that's an obvious implication of his speech.

    Yet another Aug. 30th version of the same event, from a different reporter:

    Rumsfeld did not directly accuse any specific critic or group of advocating the appeasement of terrorists, and he did not identify the administration opponents who were the focus of his criticism. Surveys have shown that although most Americans believe the Iraq war was a mistake, they support U.S. efforts to track down terrorists.

    Rumsfeld's use of the word "appease" was particularly notable, referring to the failed efforts of the pre-Churchill British government to mollify Hitler. Administration officials in the past have used the term "appeasement" to deflect criticism or justify White House policies — President Bush did so just before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. But Rumsfeld in his speech appeared to use the term in a markedly more pointed way.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Rumsfeld alluded to critics of the Bush administration's war policies in terms associated with the failure to stop Nazism in the 1930s, "a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among the Western democracies."

    Damn , Rummy is right .
    The critics of of the Administrations war policies have failed to stop them in time , just as critics of the Nazis failed to stop them in time.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    London, innit
    Posts
    3,734

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    If you disagree with any element of the Bush administration's policies on Iraq and remaking the middle east, you're an appeasement monkey.
    Now I'm confused. Is this instead of hating America and loving Satan, or as well as?
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  27. #27
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Between the Mountain and the Sound
    Posts
    11,074
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    As well as hating America, though not necessarily being a Satan-lover.

    Anyways, it seems the actual speech was much, much different from 'criticise us at all and you're appeasing terrorists", being closer to saying "appeasing terrorists won't work, sillies".

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    London, innit
    Posts
    3,734

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    If Mr Rumsfeld is allowed to draw facile parallels with 1930's appeasers, am I allowed to make the facile point that there is very little in his speech that could not have been written by Herr Goebbels? Strong leader, tick, celebration of martial virtues, tick, importance of will to win, tick, surrounded by enemies, tick, importance of unity of the volk, whoops, nation, tick....

    I think I preferred it when US politicans were ripping off Neil Kinnock's speeches.
    "The only thing I've gotten out of this thread is that Navaros is claiming that Satan gave Man meat. Awesome." Gorebag

  29. #29
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    If Mr Rumsfeld is allowed to draw facile parallels with 1930's appeasers, am I allowed to make the facile point that there is very little in his speech that could not have been written by Herr Goebbels? Strong leader, tick, celebration of martial virtues, tick, importance of will to win, tick, surrounded by enemies, tick, importance of unity of the volk, whoops, nation, tick....

    I think I preferred it when US politicans were ripping off Neil Kinnock's speeches.
    For American readers unfamiliar with the former leader of the Labour party. From the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations.

    Kinnock, Neil 1942– 
    (British Labour politician)

    1. (during the Falklands War, replying to a heckler who said that Mrs Thatcher ‘showed guts’) It's a pity others had to leave theirs on the ground at Goose Green to prove it.
    [television interview, 6 June 1983]

    2. If Margaret Thatcher wins on Thursday, I warn you not to be ordinary, I warn you not to be young, I warn you not to fall ill, and I warn you not to grow old.
    (on the prospect of a Conservative re-election)
    [speech at Bridgend, 7 June 1983]

    3. Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to a university?
    (later plagiarized by the American politician Joe Biden)
    [speech in party political broadcast, 21 May 1987]

  30. #30
    Member Member Shaun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    282

    Default Re: Disagree With Me, and You're Appeasing Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Now I'm confused. Is this instead of hating America and loving Satan, or as well as?
    If you hate America you automatically love Satan. And Eat babies.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO