chain routing causes

[caravel]

Dread is for governors and faction leaders, it impacts provincial happiness (loyalty) positively and nothing else. It's a pity that dread wasn't implimented as a factor on the battlefield, it could have been interesting.

[Biggus Diccus]

Dread is for governors and faction leaders, it impacts provincial happiness (loyalty) positively and nothing else. It's a pity that dread wasn't implimented as a factor on the battlefield, it could have been interesting.

LOL A dreaded general rides along the battle-line and the enemy just routs when they see him

But seriously, it could have had some negative morale modifiers to fight with a high dread general

[Ironside]

LOL A dreaded general rides along the battle-line and the enemy just routs when they see him

But seriously, it could have had some negative morale modifiers to fight with a high dread general

Actually the question is if they would fight harder? As a dreaded general is likely to kill you if you're captured...
Although the army would be more careful of actually engaging.

[rvg]

Actually the question is if they would fight harder? As a dreaded general is likely to kill you if you're captured...
Although the army would be more careful of actually engaging.

I've actually seen a 900+ strong Egyptian army vacate a province when faced with 3 units of Gothic Knights led by my 9 Dread 4 star Jedi General, who happened to ba a Murderer, a Butcher *and* a Natural Born Killer.

They didn't even hole up in the castle either, they completely left the province. And no, their Sultan was not in that province.

[Ironside]

I've actually seen a 900+ strong Egyptian army vacate a province when faced with 3 units of Gothic Knights led by my 9 Dread 4 star Jedi General, who happened to ba a Murderer, a Butcher *and* a Natural Born Killer.

They didn't even hole up in the castle either, they completely left the province. And no, their Sultan was not in that province.

Then the question is if it was quality troops in that Egyptian army. You play unmodded? I ask, because the Egypts has the heaviest tendency of peasant spamming of all factions unmodded.
Getting the comp to face your elite troops can be quite annoying.

They rout entirely from a province occationally if the comp judge that he can't re-conquer the province.

Nothing to do with the generals dread.

As a side note, I counted up the vices for my general who died a martyr, and there was something like a -19 for morale!

You mean they actually saw the enemy before routing? I mean I was pleasantly surpriced when I my -5 morale troops deared to charge uphill vs a superior army, without routing of the initial charge.

That they then got massacrated and routed seconds later, due to massive losses is another matter.

[Martok]

Dread is for governors and faction leaders, it impacts provincial happiness (loyalty) positively and nothing else. It's a pity that dread wasn't implimented as a factor on the battlefield, it could have been interesting.

I agree. In fact, I remember reading that this was actually going to be implemented in the game at one point. A general would supposedly inflict a negative morale penalty against an enemy army, based on how high his dread rating was. Why this feature was never implemented, I don't know. It would've been pretty cool if it had, though.

[gaijinalways]

I agree, having a fearsome general should help in battles. As a side note, I counted up the vices for my general who died a martyr, and there was something like a -19 for morale!

Timorous
Blood lover
retreats often
another negative vice

No wonder the troops were bolting as soon as one unit routed !

[Martok]

I agree, having a fearsome general should help in battles. As a side note, I counted up the vices for my general who died a martyr, and there was something like a -19 for morale!

Timorous
Blood lover
retreats often
another negative vice

No wonder the troops were bolting as soon as one unit routed !

Yikes. With morale penalties like that, I think the question becomes not, "Why did your men run away?"; but rather "Why did they ever take the field in the first place?"

[Ciaran]

I agree. In fact, I remember reading that this was actually going to be implemented in the game at one point. A general would supposedly inflict a negative morale penalty against an enemy army, based on how high his dread rating was. Why this feature was never implemented, I don't know. It would've been pretty cool if it had, though.

You know Henry V won the battle of Agincourt among other things because, when at the end of the battle the French cavalry almost had reached the French prisoners taken, over a thousand by that time, he ordered to kill the prisoners to prevent that they joined the battle again, almost certainly leading to a defeat for the English. When the French cavalry saw that happening, they fled in terror.

[Maharajah]

You know Henry V won the battle of Agincourt among other things because, when at the end of the battle the French cavalry almost had reached the French prisoners taken, over a thousand by that time, he ordered to kill the prisoners to prevent that they joined the battle again, almost certainly leading to a defeat for the English. When the French cavalry saw that happening, they fled in terror.

Speaking of Agincourt and chain routing, I was playing the historical campaign the other day and I have not been able to win at Agincourt.

First, I tried hiding my spears/Billmen in the woods to force the cavalry to fight at a disadvantage and skirmished with my longbows. Well my longbows were annihilated, no surprise but I thought they would inflict some punishement (not), then my spears routed in the forest and I was crushed.

Second I tried building a half-hexagon of billmen and spears with my longbows packed in the middle and some FMAA at the back to stiffen spines. I then tried to hit the flanks of the on rushing French Hvy Cav horde with all of my Knights when they were pinned on the spears. This was working beautifully until my billmen, for some unknown reason, tried to advance even though they were on hold position, hold formation.
Of course my lines were disrupted and everyone routed and was cut down.

I'll tell you what's not best in life: "to be crushed by my enemy, see my troops driven before me and to hear the lamentation of my women..."

Any advice? Seems like the longbowmen don't have enough time to inflict the kind of damage they did historically and the cavalry is not hampered at all by the mud.

[fester]

what an excelent thread!!! iT's answered alot off my own questions.

[Ciaran]

Speaking of Agincourt and chain routing, I was playing the historical campaign the other day and I have not been able to win at Agincourt.

First, I tried hiding my spears/Billmen in the woods to force the cavalry to fight at a disadvantage and skirmished with my longbows. Well my longbows were annihilated, no surprise but I thought they would inflict some punishement (not), then my spears routed in the forest and I was crushed.

Second I tried building a half-hexagon of billmen and spears with my longbows packed in the middle and some FMAA at the back to stiffen spines. I then tried to hit the flanks of the on rushing French Hvy Cav horde with all of my Knights when they were pinned on the spears. This was working beautifully until my billmen, for some unknown reason, tried to advance even though they were on hold position, hold formation.
Of course my lines were disrupted and everyone routed and was cut down.

I'll tell you what's not best in life: "to be crushed by my enemy, see my troops driven before me and to hear the lamentation of my women..."

Any advice? Seems like the longbowmen don't have enough time to inflict the kind of damage they did historically and the cavalry is not hampered at all by the mud.

I did the following:
I positioned the Chiv Sergeants (in the center - CS need their flanks protected at all cost) and the Billmen in a line at the hedge that marks the edge of the big field (there´s a minimal rise in terrain - maybe enough for a small uphill bonus) The Longbows were positioned behind them. The swords I put into the woods on the left flank, the French don´t have any infantry to speak of, but loads of cavalry and if those caught my swords in the open, there´d be hell to pay. My own cavalry went to the back. After that it was mainly downhill - the French came up rather slowly, and my Longbows could pick off a good number before they even met my infantry. The swords in the woods on the left flank could hold their own, in the center my CS routed, but rushing King Harry into the breach prevented the breakthrough. The billmen protected the flanks by attacking (important - they need to rush out and attack) the French that tried to move around the inner flanks (between the battle line and the trees on either side). That caused the French units to present their flanks to my reserve cavalry, of which I took advantage. When the Longbows had spent their arrows I placed them in the woods as well where they could hold their own well enough. And that was it, basically.

[Zild]

Sorry, can somebody please just clarify this for me?

Do V&V morale modifiers apply to just the unit with that V&V, or to the entire army?

I was under the impression that all morale modifiers applied to that unit only, including those from the general's vices. Is it actually that the general's morale-modifying V&Vs affect the whole army? (And if so, does each unit receive additional penalties for their own V&Vs or not?)

Thanks.

[Ironside]

Sorry, can somebody please just clarify this for me?

Do V&V morale modifiers apply to just the unit with that V&V, or to the entire army?

I was under the impression that all morale modifiers applied to that unit only, including those from the general's vices. Is it actually that the general's morale-modifying V&Vs affect the whole army? (And if so, does each unit receive additional penalties for their own V&Vs or not?)

Thanks.

The general's morale v&v affects the hole army. I don't think the units recive additional penalties or bonuses due to thier own v&v, but that's uncertain as I haven't been testing that.

[caravel]

I agree. In fact, I remember reading that this was actually going to be implemented in the game at one point. A general would supposedly inflict a negative morale penalty against an enemy army, based on how high his dread rating was. Why this feature was never implemented, I don't know. It would've been pretty cool if it had, though.

I would have liked to have seen it implimented as a double edged sword. E.g:

Hypothetical:

0 dread: no effect

1 - 4 dread: has the effect of increasing his men's morale and causing fear to the enemy (norale penalty)

5 - 6 dread: increases his men's morale but also starts to push enemies back up at the same time. Their overriding fear of being captured by such a butcher may have something to do with that.

7 - 9 dread: this murderous commander has totally lost the respect of his men which demoralises them and heartens his enemies who are all to well aware of this.

Loyalty and piety could have also played a part on the field. Piety could have increased the morale of pious units serving under a pious commander (depending on his piety level). Loyalty could also have given a very small morale bonus/penalty. Realistically those 1 loyalty units are not going to stick around to the bitter end, wheras the 8(+) loyalty units may be more likely to do so. This would give you the scenarios where those horribly disloyal troops turn and run in the middle of a battle.