When organic food goes bad...

[Xiahou]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Organic spinach appears to be the culprit behind a 20-state outbreak of deadly E. coli poisoning, casting further doubt on greens' claims that "organic is safer."

About 15 years ago, environmentalists set off a scare over the pesticide Alar used on apples. They brainwashed the public into thinking they could die from trace amounts of such chemicals, and the organic movement was born.

Organic growers, including the spinach farm suspected in the E. coli outbreak, use fertilizer made from manure rather than synthetic chemicals. Dangerous bacteria such as E. coli can be found in animal waste. And composting — unlike those "evil" pesticides — doesn't always kill the bacteria.

California-based Natural Selection Foods, the country's largest grower of organic produce, has recalled its packaged spinach throughout the U.S. Its best-known brand, Earthbound Farm, grows the organic spinach found in packaged salad fixings that have become a mainstay of restaurants and supermarkets.

Earthbound's Web site argues that organic farming is safer and healthier than conventional methods using synthetic fertilizers and "highly toxic" pesticides.

"When you choose organic," it says, "you're not only protecting your family's health, you're helping to protect the environment."

Its "earth-friendly alternatives" to chemicals include recycled plants and "sometimes animal waste materials."

You learn elsewhere on the Web site that these materials include chicken manure and "pelletized bat and bird guano," raising questions about the risk of not just E. coli, but also avian flu.

link

So, it looks like "evil" chemical fertilizers would've averted the entire spinach scare that's going on currently, as opposed to fertilizing food with infectious "organic" waste. I'd also like to add that this also could've been entirely averted by simple irradiation.

[Scurvy]

I really dislike the whole fuss about organic food, its much more expensive and (this seems to back this up) is only slightly better for health - if someone wants to eat organic food why not make it themselves -

[Crazed Rabbit]

Gah, another reason not to consume organic food, besides the bad taste.

Crazed Rabbit

[caravel]

Sorry to break it to you but I've used horse shite for years on onions, potatoes and carrots and never seen a case of e. coli. The problem is that the crop was not properly cleaned, and that an unclean manure was used. Organicly grown crops taste superior to the uniform sized, bland, tasteless, boring mass produced junk sold in supermarkets.

If someone painted a car with poor quality paint, and that paint peeled off, would you say "never paint cars again"?

The worst e. coli O157:H7 cases have been related to contaminated beef. This is basically a beef problem, not a spinach nor organic farming problem. Your food doesn't need to have the hell sterilised out of it, and sprayed with a pesticides. It's the modern society of sanitised wimps that require this ("omg there's a grub in my lettuce! etc). Also certain bacteria are necessary to proper development and maintainence of the immune system.

Also raw salads are notorious for causing diarrhoea and sickness. Whether organic non-organic or irradiated.

[yesdachi]

Also raw salads are notorious for causing diarrhoea and sickness. Whether organic non-organic or irradiated.

You’re not much of a salesman for raw salad.

[The_Doctor]

The green folk should be talking about what happens to the pesticides and fertilisers when it enters the environment.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutrophication

Basically you end up with dead fish and wierd chemicals in the water.

[Tribesman]

So 173 people have got 157 from spinach that was either not washed properly or was washed in contaminated water .
What did the other 73,000 americans that got Ecoli 157 get it from ?

[Blodrast]

Leaving the health-related aspects aside for a little bit (not because it's irrelevant, but because it's a much longer and complicated debate than I care getting into right now), there is a HUGE difference in taste between "organic" and non-organic. Huuuge difference.

[Xiahou]

Leaving the health-related aspects aside for a little bit (not because it's irrelevant, but because it's a much longer and complicated debate than I care getting into right now), there is a HUGE difference in taste between "organic" and non-organic. Huuuge difference.

Freshness makes the biggest difference in taste. I suspect the fact that "organic" farms are small and local as compared to many large-scale producers which ship much further has more to do with their taste than their being "organic".

The worst e. coli O157:H7 cases have been related to contaminated beef. This is basically a beef problem, not a spinach nor organic farming problem.

In steaks, it should be a non-issue if they're cooked properly. For burgers (ground beef) it's either well-done or irradiated for me. Unfortunately, irradiated produce and meats are rare due to the scare-mongering surrounding it- in reality, it's perfectly safe.

[discovery1]

Lots of non organic foods have growth excellerators so that they are large enough for market before they are ripe. Thus they are picked too early. Or something like that.

[Blodrast]

Freshness makes the biggest difference in taste. I suspect the fact that "organic" farms are small and local as compared to many large-scale producers which ship much further has more to do with their taste than their being "organic".

Yup, I completely agree with you.

In addition, as far as steaks go, I guess this serves as a bit of a disincentive for people who enjoy theirs rare.

[Tribesman]

In addition, as far as steaks go, I guess this serves as a bit of a disincentive for people who enjoy theirs rare.

But apart from blue what other way is there to enjoy a steak ?

[InsaneApache]

So 173 people have got 157 from spinach that was either not washed properly or was washed in contaminated water .
What did the other 73,000 americans that got Ecoli 157 get it from ?

KFC, Macdonalds, Burgerking.....take your pick.
I urge all to read Fast food nation. You will never eat fast food again.

[Blodrast]

But apart from blue what other way is there to enjoy a steak ?

heh, I admit I had to look that up...

Blue steak is the step below rare in "done-ness" (for lack of a better word). A "blue" steak is very red and cold in the center, while a "rare" steak is red and cool in the center.

Why, I personally prefer it so well-done that I have to scrape the burnt part off

See, I come to the backroom 'cause it helps me learn new stuff every day.

[Papewaio]

I'll eat either type. Fertiliser, manure, blood and bone and the rest I suspect are used on both types of crops... I assume that the issue is with the cleaning process after picking not the growing process beforehand.

BTW slightly OT Xiahou-san... as a coffee connoisseur do you find any of the organic coffees better?

[Xiahou]

But apart from blue what other way is there to enjoy a steak ?

Hey, a little dose of radiation and you can eat it raw if you want to.

BTW slightly OT Xiahou-san... as a coffee connoisseur do you find any of the organic coffees better?

I've ordered certified organic coffee before, but not because it was organic- it was just the particular variety that I wanted to try. I never actually did (or thought to do) a side-by-side comparison , but I doubt it makes a difference.

[Major Robert Dump]

Someone picking spinach for 2$ an hour took a poop in between two spinach plants and didn't wash his hands. Strawberries anyone?

[Grey_Fox]

For anyone who wants to know, blue rare is where the meat is put on the pan on one side for 30 seconds, flipped and done on the other side for 30 seconds and then served.

Absolutely horrifying, it's heated, not cooked. I prefer my steak well done and smothered with gravy.

[doc_bean]

I like my steak rare, although I'll eat it blue, I don't like it over rare though.

And 'organic' food is just a marketing thing. Proper and responsible use of pesticides still produces the best results, without damaging the environmnet (much more).

[Ironside]

In steaks, it should be a non-issue if they're cooked properly. For burgers (ground beef) it's either well-done or irradiated for me. Unfortunately, irradiated produce and meats are rare due to the scare-mongering surrounding it- in reality, it's perfectly safe.

Digging around a bit the only odd thing I can find is the dosage. For example 4500 Gray is often used. And as we're talking about gamma radiation, it's eaqual to 4500 Sievert.
Considering that a local dosage of 100 Sievert causes severe tissue damage (a short term dosage of 5 Sievert will cause lethal radiation sickness), I'm simply wondering how the hell the food is undamaged in the process.

Can have something to do with the units (Gray = absorbed joule/kg and bacterias are very small) but how to make sure that the bacterias themself get the required dosage while not frying the food?
Weight vs Area scaling?

[Lemur]

Freshness makes the biggest difference in taste. I suspect the fact that "organic" farms are small and local as compared to many large-scale producers which ship much further has more to do with their taste than their being "organic".

I'm married to a professional chef. Trust me, the tomatos you can buy in the supermarket are cardboard compared to some of the stuff out there. It's impossible to explain to someone who's never tasted the alternative, but let me be clear -- if you bit into one of the heirloom tomatos, you would think it was an entirely different plant.

There's a lot more to how our food winds up tasting than distance to market.

[Xiahou]

I'm married to a professional chef. Trust me, the tomatos you can buy in the supermarket are cardboard compared to some of the stuff out there. It's impossible to explain to someone who's never tasted the alternative, but let me be clear -- if you bit into one of the heirloom tomatos, you would think it was an entirely different plant.

There's a lot more to how our food winds up tasting than distance to market.

Sure, there's sorting and grading too. There's the average quality stuff that's sold in bulk at the supermarket and then there's the top quality stuff that you have to pay through the nose for that gets sorted out and sold seperately. Then there's the really hideous stuff that gets stewed and put into cans or jars where you can barely tell what it was to begin with anyhow.

[BigTex]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Organic spinach appears to be the culprit behind a 20-state outbreak of deadly E. coli poisoning, casting further doubt on greens' claims that "organic is safer."

About 15 years ago, environmentalists set off a scare over the pesticide Alar used on apples. They brainwashed the public into thinking they could die from trace amounts of such chemicals, and the organic movement was born.

Organic growers, including the spinach farm suspected in the E. coli outbreak, use fertilizer made from manure rather than synthetic chemicals. Dangerous bacteria such as E. coli can be found in animal waste. And composting — unlike those "evil" pesticides — doesn't always kill the bacteria.

California-based Natural Selection Foods, the country's largest grower of organic produce, has recalled its packaged spinach throughout the U.S. Its best-known brand, Earthbound Farm, grows the organic spinach found in packaged salad fixings that have become a mainstay of restaurants and supermarkets.

Earthbound's Web site argues that organic farming is safer and healthier than conventional methods using synthetic fertilizers and "highly toxic" pesticides.

"When you choose organic," it says, "you're not only protecting your family's health, you're helping to protect the environment."

Its "earth-friendly alternatives" to chemicals include recycled plants and "sometimes animal waste materials."

You learn elsewhere on the Web site that these materials include chicken manure and "pelletized bat and bird guano," raising questions about the risk of not just E. coli, but also avian flu.

link

So, it looks like "evil" chemical fertilizers would've averted the entire spinach scare that's going on currently, as opposed to fertilizing food with infectious "organic" waste. I'd also like to add that this also could've been entirely averted by simple irradiation.

Like I've always stated the "organic" foods are bad, bad for people, bad for the enviroment. Using untreated animal waste as fertilizers is idiotic, cuases food poisoning and causes problems later on when there's runoff from the fields. I'm not saying loading on the chemical's is a good thing but neither is the organic way of growing crops. Not to mention the organic fad has now led to LA banning the transport of treated sludge to farms for topsoil. Current organic food regulations = bad.

[Tribesman]

Not to mention the organic fad has now led to LA banning the transport of treated sludge to farms for topsoil. Current organic food regulations = bad.

yes , best not mention it ....but since you have .
Does that ban have something to do with organic food or is it the various counties taking action to stop the city dumping copius amounts of excrement on them ?
hmmmmm ......solution , ship it to Arizona instead .

[Lemur]

Sure, there's sorting and grading too. There's the average quality stuff that's sold in bulk at the supermarket and then there's the top quality stuff that you have to pay through the nose for that gets sorted out and sold seperately. Then there's the really hideous stuff that gets stewed and put into cans or jars where you can barely tell what it was to begin with anyhow.

Xiahou, as a personal favor to me, I want you to find a really good chef, and announce in your most Backroomish tones, "The only factors that affect flavor of food are distance to market, sorting and grading." I would like for you to carry a timepiece, so that we can accurately measure how long the chef laughs.

[Xiahou]

Xiahou, as a personal favor to me, I want you to find a really good chef, and announce in your most Backroomish tones, "The only factors that affect flavor of food are distance to market, sorting and grading." I would like for you to carry a timepiece, so that we can accurately measure how long the chef laughs.

I got a better idea. Go to a nice supermarket and buy the fanciest, prettiest, most expensive non-organic tomatoes you can find. Then, do the same thing with certified organic tomatoes. Slice them up and administer a blind taste test to your wife. Give several rounds of testing and see if she can identify the top-shelf organic tomatoes from the top-shelf inorganic ones.

[Lemur]

I'm amazed that you're digging in on an issue like this. Have you ever heard of heirloom veggies? Have you ever tasted them? Is your entire point that the organic section of the local supermarket is a bit of a rip?

Due to my wife's profession, I've been hanging around various sorts of chefs for years. All I can say is that when it comes to understanding what goes into sourcing really good produce, you're demonstrating the same sort of intellectual zest I'd expect from Navaros when discussing Darwin. You seem to be under the impression that there are effete Yuppies who buy marked-up produce, and smart people who don't. And that seems to be your worldview on the subject.

There's a whole world of methods and means for getting your hands on top-grade produce, and none of them involve the organic section of the supermarket. Pop quiz to see if you have a background in this: Do you know who Alice Waters is? Do you know what seasonal cuisine is? Do you know what New American cuisine is?

Look, if your goal is simply to be disputative, then fire back at will. If you have a genuine curiosity about produce, PM me and we can stop hijacking this thread.

[yesdachi]

I got a better idea. Go to a nice supermarket and buy the fanciest, prettiest, most expensive non-organic tomatoes you can find. Then, do the same thing with certified organic tomatoes. Slice them up and administer a blind taste test to your wife. Give several rounds of testing and see if she can identify the top-shelf organic tomatoes from the top-shelf inorganic ones.

That would be too easy; the organic ones are half the size and taste like expensive.


Jokes aside, some of the stuff you can find at a farmers market are very good, not sure how “organic” they are but at least they are semi-homegrown and usually value priced.

[BigTex]

yes , best not mention it ....but since you have .
Does that ban have something to do with organic food or is it the various counties taking action to stop the city dumping copius amounts of excrement on them ?
hmmmmm ......solution , ship it to Arizona instead .

Sorry was in a bit of a hurry to work, didn't realize I hadent really explained it thoroughly (shoulda known tribesman woulda jumped on it, damn been gone awhile.). The law prevents the transportation of treated sludge inside the LA county. The counties and farms around it arnt against it. Sludge/soil is used by most none organic farmers, good way to get rid of the dirt.

[Xiahou]

'Organic produce... from your toilet to your table.'