When organic food goes bad...

[BigTex]

'Organic produce... from your toilet to your table.'

Eh, little off there Xiahou, organic food doesnt use sludge. Thus the problem with the contaminated animal fecal matter/fertilizer. More or less its, "Organic produce.... from the cows butt, straight to your gut.".

[Xiahou]

Eh, little off there Xiahou, organic food doesnt use sludge. Thus the problem with the contaminated animal fecal matter/fertilizer. More or less its, "Organic produce.... from the cows butt, straight to your gut.".

That's ok, my first slogan wasnt very snappy anyhow.... something more like "From your toilet bowl to your salad bowl" might've been better.

So you're saying that human waste isnt used as fertilizer? Or that it's not considered "organic" produce when it is used? Cuz Im fairly certain that human waste is used as fertilzer....

[Tribesman]

Sorry was in a bit of a hurry to work, didn't realize I hadent really explained it thoroughly (shoulda known tribesman woulda jumped on it, damn been gone awhile.). The law prevents the transportation of treated sludge inside the LA county. The counties and farms around it arnt against it. Sludge/soil is used by most none organic farmers, good way to get rid of the dirt.

Yes the county concerned has got a law passed preventing the authorities dumping 470,000 tons of **** on it each year .
L.A. is appealing the case since transporting it to arizona makes it damn expensive ****.
The main problem with human waste sludge is industrial discharges into the sewage system .

Eh, little off there Xiahou, organic food doesnt use sludge.

Most crops for human consumption don't use sludge . whether they are organic crops or not .

[InsaneApache]

I have heard of Alice Waters but then again I've read Schlossers books.

[Banquo's Ghost]

What confuses me when reading this thread is the apparent hostility towards organic food from some conservative posters.

Surely in a free market, all products that can create a market and sustain it are good things. As long as one has the choice to buy junk food or whatever, why is it an issue? Organic producers may have been very successful in using their marketing to convince people to buy their product, but why is this a bad thing?

Even if their claims are thinly supported, I don't see that it's different from, say, the cosmetic industry claiming that some blended petro-chemical slurry makes your wrinkles disappear (research figures derived from a study of three women who agreed that the cheque in their hands made them feel years younger).

What's the beef?

[Tribesman]

What confuses me when reading this thread is the apparent hostility towards organic food from some conservative posters.

Well thats because organic is a liberal hippy issue so it must be bad .....right , but since it is an old traditional method it must be conservative ....right

Hey i mised the edit this morning ....

So you're saying that human waste isnt used as fertilizer? Or that it's not considered "organic" produce when it is used? Cuz Im fairly certain that human waste is used as fertilzer....

Now thats interesting , a few basics for ya Xiahou , there are very strict guidlines on what can be classified as organic , human waste can be classed as organic , if the sewage system from which it comes contains only human waste . Can you think of any of the sewage systems that would comply with that (there are several) .
Now you are fairly certain that human waste is used as fertilizer , and you are correct , would you care to hazard a guess as to what categories of crops it is used on ?
yep ...industrial crops and animal feed crops . however the animals that are fed those crops can not be certified as organic produce unless the fertilizer in their feed crops is certified as organic .

Wierd isn't it , and remember your problem with human waste is a result of measures taken to stop it getting into seafood (for human consumption) and your drinking water (for human consumption) .
Funny how this excrement all links together isn't it .

[Lemur]

Yeah, let's direct all our anger and scorn at organic produce! That will solve everything!

Oh, wait, another bag of toxic spinach has been found, and it's not even organic. Ooops. Linky.

[InsaneApache]

But...but what's Popeye going to do now? Eat fava beans? (Well it worked for Dr. Lecture. )

What's the beef?

You dry sod.

[Scurvy]

Surely in a free market, all products that can create a market and sustain it are good things. As long as one has the choice to buy junk food or whatever, why is it an issue? Organic producers may have been very successful in using their marketing to convince people to buy their product, but why is this a bad thing?

maybe because its so much more expensive - noone likes that. (not that i'd know), but i would think a conservative might not mind the market creation thing, but objects to buying outrageously expensive food themselves

What's the beef?

[Banquo's Ghost]

maybe because its so much more expensive - noone likes that. (not that i'd know), but i would think a conservative might not mind the market creation thing, but objects to buying outrageously expensive food themselves

Are you advocating price controls?

If the price is too high, no-one would buy it surely? Shouldn't the market set the price? Who is forcing conservatives to buy organic food? Is it those pesky Liberal Elites conspirators again?

[Scurvy]

Are you advocating price controls?

If the price is too high, no-one would buy it surely? Shouldn't the market set the price? Who is forcing conservatives to buy organic food? Is it those pesky Liberal Elites conspirators again?

i give the Organic food sellers great credit for managing to sell organic food at high prices, the market does set the price - im just saying that i wouldnt buy it myself at such expense --> it interests me that people do

[Xiahou]

What confuses me when reading this thread is the apparent hostility towards organic food from some conservative posters.

Surely in a free market, all products that can create a market and sustain it are good things. As long as one has the choice to buy junk food or whatever, why is it an issue? Organic producers may have been very successful in using their marketing to convince people to buy their product, but why is this a bad thing?

Even if their claims are thinly supported, I don't see that it's different from, say, the cosmetic industry claiming that some blended petro-chemical slurry makes your wrinkles disappear (research figures derived from a study of three women who agreed that the cheque in their hands made them feel years younger).

What's the beef?

I don't understand where being pro-free markets precludes anyone from having an opinion about a certain type of product. I'm disputing the claims made by "organic" food marketers- not calling for a ban or any other government intervention.

What's the beef indeed.

[InsaneApache]

It's the consumer darling. The old adage applies. The customer is always right. Hey presto capitalism.

Trust me I know, even when the customer is rude, sexist, racist and any other 'ist' you can think of. When you are a businessman and need cash for food, wages, overheads, bloody taxes etc...then the guy who provides that income stream is always right.

[Xiahou]

Yeah, let's direct all our anger and scorn at organic produce! That will solve everything!

Oh, wait, another bag of toxic spinach has been found, and it's not even organic. Ooops. Linky.

Did we know it didn't come from the same farm? The article indicated it was the same area, but didnt mention the specific farm.

Now you are fairly certain that human waste is used as fertilizer , and you are correct , would you care to hazard a guess as to what categories of crops it is used on ?
yep ...industrial crops and animal feed crops .

Class A biosolids (processed sewage) can be used on any crops- even for human consumption. Of course, they're probably safer than composted animal manure anyway- so it's not much of an issue.

[yesdachi]

Class A biosolids (processed sewage) can be used on any crops- even for human consumption. Of course, they're probably safer than composted animal manure anyway- so it's not much of an issue.

So, does that mean its ok not to wash my hands before returning to work?

[Kanamori]

I've had plenty of organic foods that either taste the same, or taste worse. Limeade, peanut butter, and milk are some examples. I'll give it all a try, but I'm not going to devote myself to one or the other. I'll buy whatever tastes good; I'll not fall into some fad where people buy things that are more expensive and also taste worse. I haven't studied food safety as a science, so I am generally willing to trust the government, except in obvious cases of contradiction.

[Lemur]

And at last the comedy is complete: Spinach Linked to E. Coli Outbreak Was Not Organic, Health Officials Say. Not that this information will sway some Orgah's opinions in the slightest ...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spinach Linked to E. Coli Outbreak Was Not Organic, Health Officials Say

By Deborah Schoch and Mary Engel, Times Staff Writers, September 29, 2006

The nine bags of baby spinach now linked by DNA testing to the national E. coli outbreak all held conventional rather than organic produce and all were sold under the Dole label, state health officials said Thursday.

The nine bags were packaged by Natural Selection Foods at the same facility in San Juan Bautista on Aug. 15, officials said.

"All of those positive bags to date have been conventional product," said Kevin Reilly, deputy director for prevention services at the state Department of Health Services. He added, however, that investigators have not ruled out the possibility that organic spinach is involved.

Nor have investigators concluded that Natural Selection's two processing facilities are clean, Reilly said. The firm said Thursday that all tests inside those facilities have been negative for E. coli contamination.

The outbreak has drawn national attention to organic farming practices in the Salinas Valley, in part because Natural Selection is widely known for its Earthbound label of organic products. But although the bags were sold as conventional spinach, Reilly said he could not say if the nine farms now being probed as potential E. coli sources all used conventional rather than organic practices.

The farms are in Monterey, San Benito and Santa Clara counties. Federal officials are still warning consumers not to eat fresh spinach from the three-county area.

State officials declined to identify the nine farms during a telephone news briefing Thursday, saying that the investigation is continuing. Potential sources could include water, fertilization, domestic and wild animals with access to the fields and poor worker hygiene, they said.

Natural Selection said Thursday that it will work with growers to oversee testing water, soil and other factors. It will also stiffen sanitation protocols for farm equipment, packaging supplies and transportation vehicles.

Company spokeswoman Samantha Cabaluna emphasized a third step: the testing of all batches of salad greens before they enter the facility.

She compared the process to that used in beef processing.

"It is unprecedented in our industry," Cabaluna said. Samples will be taken and cultured for 12 to 18 hours, which will delay processing for nearly a day of produce that typically has a 17-day shelf life, she said. "It's shorter shelf life and high improved food safety," she said.

Natural Selection representatives also said Thursday that for individuals with cases tied to produce it processed, the firm is offering to reimburse all out-of -pocket medical expenses.

They said they want to hear from every individual affected by confirmed cases of E. coli contamination originating from spinach the firm packed.

"It is the right thing for us to do," said Charles Sweat, chief operating officer.

Seattle-based attorney Bill Marler, who says he represents 86 victims in 25 states, called the payment of out-of-pocket expenses "a good first step."

Marler — who has made a career representing victims of food-borne illnesses, beginning with the 1993 Jack in the Box E. coli outbreak — said he has spoken with attorneys for Natural Selection and Dole.

"It's a good thing when a corporation does that early rather than waiting forever," he said. "I encouraged them to do it for everyone, not just my clients, and obviously that's what they've done. And I commend them for doing it."

Cabaluna said Thursday that Natural Selection has decided not to complete the purchase of the former Pride of San Juan processing plant near its main facility in San Juan Bautista.

That plant is where Dole spinach is processed, but the decision to pull back from the purchase is for economic reasons, she said.

"We just don't need that capacity," she said. Natural Selection sales were off about 40% last week, she added.

A spokeswoman for Dole Foods, based in Westlake Village, said that it has a partnership with Natural Selection to provide spinach to be processed at the San Juan Bautista facilities.

Neither Natural Selection nor Dole grows spinach. Natural Selection deals with the growers who provide the spinach sold under the Dole label.

The tally of infected persons rose to 187 people in 26 states, including 134 women and 18 children, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Thursday. The strain in question, E. coli 0157:H7, has been isolated from the nine bags marked as baby spinach supplied by patients in seven states.

[Xiahou]

And at last the comedy is complete: Spinach Linked to E. Coli Outbreak Was Not Organic, Health Officials Say. Not that this information will sway some Orgah's opinions in the slightest ...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spinach Linked to E. Coli Outbreak Was Not Organic, Health Officials Say

By Deborah Schoch and Mary Engel, Times Staff Writers, September 29, 2006

The nine bags of baby spinach now linked by DNA testing to the national E. coli outbreak all held conventional rather than organic produce and all were sold under the Dole label, state health officials said Thursday.

The nine bags were packaged by Natural Selection Foods at the same facility in San Juan Bautista on Aug. 15, officials said.

"All of those positive bags to date have been conventional product," said Kevin Reilly, deputy director for prevention services at the state Department of Health Services. He added, however, that investigators have not ruled out the possibility that organic spinach is involved.

Nor have investigators concluded that Natural Selection's two processing facilities are clean, Reilly said. The firm said Thursday that all tests inside those facilities have been negative for E. coli contamination.

The outbreak has drawn national attention to organic farming practices in the Salinas Valley, in part because Natural Selection is widely known for its Earthbound label of organic products. But although the bags were sold as conventional spinach, Reilly said he could not say if the nine farms now being probed as potential E. coli sources all used conventional rather than organic practices.

The farms are in Monterey, San Benito and Santa Clara counties. Federal officials are still warning consumers not to eat fresh spinach from the three-county area.

State officials declined to identify the nine farms during a telephone news briefing Thursday, saying that the investigation is continuing. Potential sources could include water, fertilization, domestic and wild animals with access to the fields and poor worker hygiene, they said.

Natural Selection said Thursday that it will work with growers to oversee testing water, soil and other factors. It will also stiffen sanitation protocols for farm equipment, packaging supplies and transportation vehicles.

Company spokeswoman Samantha Cabaluna emphasized a third step: the testing of all batches of salad greens before they enter the facility.

She compared the process to that used in beef processing.

"It is unprecedented in our industry," Cabaluna said. Samples will be taken and cultured for 12 to 18 hours, which will delay processing for nearly a day of produce that typically has a 17-day shelf life, she said. "It's shorter shelf life and high improved food safety," she said.

Natural Selection representatives also said Thursday that for individuals with cases tied to produce it processed, the firm is offering to reimburse all out-of -pocket medical expenses.

They said they want to hear from every individual affected by confirmed cases of E. coli contamination originating from spinach the firm packed.

"It is the right thing for us to do," said Charles Sweat, chief operating officer.

Seattle-based attorney Bill Marler, who says he represents 86 victims in 25 states, called the payment of out-of-pocket expenses "a good first step."

Marler — who has made a career representing victims of food-borne illnesses, beginning with the 1993 Jack in the Box E. coli outbreak — said he has spoken with attorneys for Natural Selection and Dole.

"It's a good thing when a corporation does that early rather than waiting forever," he said. "I encouraged them to do it for everyone, not just my clients, and obviously that's what they've done. And I commend them for doing it."

Cabaluna said Thursday that Natural Selection has decided not to complete the purchase of the former Pride of San Juan processing plant near its main facility in San Juan Bautista.

That plant is where Dole spinach is processed, but the decision to pull back from the purchase is for economic reasons, she said.

"We just don't need that capacity," she said. Natural Selection sales were off about 40% last week, she added.

A spokeswoman for Dole Foods, based in Westlake Village, said that it has a partnership with Natural Selection to provide spinach to be processed at the San Juan Bautista facilities.

Neither Natural Selection nor Dole grows spinach. Natural Selection deals with the growers who provide the spinach sold under the Dole label.

The tally of infected persons rose to 187 people in 26 states, including 134 women and 18 children, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Thursday. The strain in question, E. coli 0157:H7, has been isolated from the nine bags marked as baby spinach supplied by patients in seven states.

Did you read all of your story?

"All of those positive bags to date have been conventional product," said Kevin Reilly, deputy director for prevention services at the state Department of Health Services. He added, however, that investigators have not ruled out the possibility that organic spinach is involved.

But although the bags were sold as conventional spinach, Reilly said he could not say if the nine farms now being probed as potential E. coli sources all used conventional rather than organic practices.

They werent marketed as "organic" but that doesnt mean they werent grown via organic practices, especially since the same farms are under investigation.

[Lemur]

Yes, X, and I assume you're referring to this bit:

But although the bags were sold as conventional spinach, Reilly said he could not say if the nine farms now being probed as potential E. coli sources all used conventional rather than organic practices.

I assume that as with the Bob Ney thread, you will hold the line until investigations are completed.

[Tribesman]

I assume that as with the Bob Ney thread, you will hold the line until investigations are completed.

Don't be silly , the line will be held even after investigations are completed