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Thread: Religion Part I: Christianity

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    Default Religion Part I: Christianity

    The political debating has been nuts around here lately. Some people are shooting off at the mouth with liberal conspiracy theories, while others are equaiting the Republican Party with the devil. I for one need a breather from the ring before we start this exciting campaign season.

    Let's talk about some religious concepts. I'd like to start with Christianity and then move on to other religions. I know this is something we have done to a certain degree, but if you want to join me on this, I'm open minded enough.


    Christianity: Asserts that modern man is born inherently evil and is doomed to eternal pain and suffering upon death unless sacrifice is given to a single all-powerful God. Asserts that a man named Jesus was born on earth 2000 years ago and was the human child of the single all-powerful God. Further asserts that Jesus self-sacrificed in order to alleviate all mankind from the requirement that they experience eternal pain and suffering. Finally, in order for an individual to be eligible for this exemption from suffering, the individual must simply believe everything written above.


    Is this basically correct? Does anybody want to clarify or dispute that this is what Christianity asserts?
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    There are a lot of folks who believe that the essence of modern Christianity is summed up by the Nicene Creed. To wit:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty
    Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;
    God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;
    begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father,
    by Whom all things were made:
    Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:
    And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried:
    And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures:
    And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father:
    And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead:
    Whose Kingdom will have no end:

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
    Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son
    Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,
    Who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,
    I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
    And I look for the Resurrection of the Dead:
    And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

    This leaves only a few Christian groups out of the fold, notably Unitarians, Christian Scientists and Gnostics. But it's certainly a good jumping-off point.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Interesting thread. I'm taking a course right now entitled "Early Medieval History". It discusses how Christianity spread and the different early forms off. I've read quite a few texts translated from Latin or Greek to English dealing with early Christian behavior. We early doing Islam and the Arabs next, so it would be fairly interesting.



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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    The political debating has been nuts around here lately. Some people are shooting off at the mouth with liberal conspiracy theories, while others are equaiting the Republican Party with the devil. I for one need a breather from the ring before we start this exciting campaign season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Christianity: Asserts that modern man is born inherently evil and is doomed to eternal pain and suffering upon death unless sacrifice is given to a single all-powerful God. Asserts that a man named Jesus was born on earth 2000 years ago and was the human child of the single all-powerful God. Further asserts that Jesus self-sacrificed in order to alleviate all mankind from the requirement that they experience eternal pain and suffering. Finally, in order for an individual to be eligible for this exemption from suffering, the individual must simply believe everything written above.
    Considering the complexity involved with the theology of Christianity, and the variety between its many, many sects, I doubt a general assertion in one paragraph of what it is will be able to provide much, if any, insight towards the religion.

    However, the "Nicene Creed" is indeed the most prevalent of all the branches. It is the foundation of Catholicism, and, by extension, most Protestanism as well--the latter being a breakaway of the former.

    Of course, a few surviving Arians would call the entire Council at Nicaea something of a heretic council...

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    Humanist Misanthrope Member Earl of Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Perhaps this would be the appropriate thread for me to voice my various grievances with Christianity.

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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Finally, in order for an individual to be eligible for this exemption from suffering, the individual must simply believe everything written above.
    Justification by faith alone is, I think, esentially a Protestant notion, not accepted by all Christians. Whilst some of the writings of St Paul support this notion, in other places scripture suggests that more is required, for example James 2:14-26 (compares faith and good works) and Matthew 25:31-46 (no mention of faith at all).

    Asserts that modern man is born inherently evil and is doomed to eternal pain and suffering upon death unless sacrifice is given to a single all-powerful God.
    Inherently evil, yes, but not entirely evil - inherently good too.
    Last edited by Duke of Gloucester; 10-01-2006 at 18:42.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Great start to the post! Sorry those damn liberals have been ruining the board. And I know it get worse - they've even broken the Holy Creed which states Republicans are in fact God's chosen disciple...

    The summary you've managed is testimony to how the Catholics destroyed all branches of the church they didn't like. Many early Christians even didn't follow the Canonical bible.

    Some ascertain that early Christianity was in two camps, those that believed Jesus was a modern day prophet, and those that believed he was divine. Later Jesus and Christos got merged together to fit both doctrines.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    -Mithrandir[/censor].



    i
    Last edited by Major Robert Dump; 10-01-2006 at 17:45.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Let's stick to the style of the first post.

    No religion bashing.
    Abandon all hope.

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Indeed, I believe the point -- as clearly established in the first post -- is to establish what Christianity is, not what we wish it were, nor to air our grievances with it. Perhaps we can save the Christianity-bashing for another thread?

    I note that DA's first post placed a heavy emphasis on original sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    [M]an is born inherently evil and is doomed to eternal pain and suffering upon death unless sacrifice is given to a single all-powerful God.
    While this isn't strictly wrong, it puts a heavier emphasis on Original Sin than is customary; sounds almost Calvinist. As a Jesuit once told the lemur, "I believe in hell, but I don't believe there's anyone in it."

    It would be very interesting to get into the various conceptions of free will ...

    [edit]

    I know that Unitarians, Christian Scientists and Gnostics might not fit within the Nicene Creed. What about Mormons? Anybody familiar with LDS theology who can take a stab at an answer?
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-01-2006 at 17:20.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    IMO the term "christian" has to be so vague to encompass the massive differences between the different sects as to render it rather pointless.

    Christianity is what people wish it to be. Like the Christians who blithely say "to be a Christian all you need to know is God is love..." either they are brain dead or willfully being overly simplistic.

    Some believe in a hell. Some believe the Material universe is hell, and heaven is waiting for them.
    Some believe in the Bible. Some believe in bits of the Bible. Some believe in the Bible and other bits. Oh, and then there's the different versions of the Bible...
    Some believe in original sin. Some don't. Some believe in the Pope. Others don't.
    Some believe that Jesus will return. Some don't. Some believe that was due to show up, but didn't. Others say that he did turn up, but only to their bosses to give them the green light to be the bosses.
    Some believe that icons are extremely religious. Others seem to have read the Bible and view this as Idolatory.

    Any other schisms I've forgotten?

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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Christianity: Asserts that modern man is born inherently evil and is doomed to eternal pain and suffering upon death unless sacrifice is given to a single all-powerful God.
    Essentially this is a correct assertion, but I shall refine it a little. Mankind (not just modern man, but mankind throughout the ages) is born inherently evil (because of the sins of Adam) and is doomed to suffer eternally unless he accepts the sacrifice of his only son, Jesus (Joshua Ben David), also known as the Christ or Messiah, and believes that he is the son of God.

    Romans 3:23 ...for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

    Romans 5:12-13 Therefore, as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all have sinned-for before the law was given, sin was in the world.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    As to those who think that the coming of Crist completely nullifies the Old Testament, I say that this assertion is incorrect. Jesus himself claimed such.

    Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    To those who may not believe in God, but think that this is just some extremely well thought up story to control the masses, God's word offers this:

    Pslams 14:1-3 A fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from Heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

    This is the reason that the Christ was sent to be a living sacrifice for the sins of the world. Despite our best intentions, there is not a single one of us who can say that he has done no wrong. Believing in the sacrifice of Jesus (who, though tempted in every way as we are, walked blameless) is God's attempt to reach out to man.

    Consider these words.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 10-02-2006 at 00:18.
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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
    The summary you've managed is testimony to how the Catholics destroyed all branches of the church they didn't like.
    This is a little emotive and inaccurate. In the early church defining and refining doctrine was important. I suppose this is what you mean by "destroying" branches of the church they did not like, although that is a highly judgemental way of putting it. Of course all this happened before any schism between Catholics and Orthodox or Catholics and Protestant, so it is somewhat unfair to let those churches of the hook. As I pointed out before, salvation merely requiring faith, which is what DA put in his summary is a Protestant idea which Catholics would reject so the summary is not particularly Catholic either.
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Christianity: Asserts that modern man is born inherently evil and is doomed to eternal pain and suffering upon death unless sacrifice is given to a single all-powerful God.
    This is not correct. The notion of man as inherently evil (as seen in the notion of Original Sin) is a product of the 5th Century ala St. Augustine. Due to Augustine's massive impact on Latin Christianity both Roman Catholicism and its heir Protestantism generally hold to this view. The same cannot be said of the Greek Tradition.

    Regarding Nicea: The Nicene Creed has been referred to as the foundational Christian stance. If one accepts this view then the Jesus movement prior to 325 C.E. was void of foundation. This is problematic for a historical faith. The Nicene Creed is vastly important. If for nothing else it marks the beginnings of Imperial Christianity, but one could argue this is still distinct from defining the core of the religion.
    Last edited by Pindar; 10-01-2006 at 19:35.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Catholics, such as I, believe in The Trinity.
    basically God, The Holy Spirit, The Son are one; however Jesus is still the Son of God.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    This is not correct. The notion of man as inherently evil (as seen in the notion of Original Sin) is a product of the 5th Century ala St. Augustine. Due to Augustine's massive impact on Latin Christianity both Roman Catholicism and its heir Protestantism generally hold to this view.
    Actually this is not correct and the original post was. Jesus himself has said that mankind is inherently evil and indeed that is also made very abundantly clear in all books of the Bible, both Old and New Testament.

    Original post is a good summary but it is incomplete as it doesn't take into account that simple belief alone does not gain passage into Heaven. Remember Jesus said that not everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will enter into the gates. There are also factors of living a moral life and not a debauched one that would prevent a believer from inheriting the Kingdom of God.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Original post is a good summary but it is incomplete as it doesn't take into account that simple belief alone does not gain passage into Heaven. Remember Jesus said that not everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will enter into the gates. There are also factors of living a moral life and not a debauched one that would prevent a believer from inheriting the Kingdom of God.
    Says one branch.



  18. #18

    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Says one branch.
    Says the Bible which is the only one branch that matters.

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Says the Bible which is the only one branch that matters.
    All a mater on how you intpret and what you include.



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    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Says the Bible which is the only one branch that matters.
    The Bible was written by man. Men have flaws therefore the Bible also has flaws.
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Csar/Navaros:

    I'd recommend setting that line of argument aside for now.

    Believers in the Bible assume that God's divine inspiration has empowered any translation as well as the original composition and that the Bible therefore has not been marred and contains lessons and messages central to Christianity.

    If you believe the Bible to be no more than a book, you are probably of the belief that religion is no more than a social convention -- an aspect of culture.

    Hashing that one out is not likely to move DA's intended discussion forward.
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    I'm religious I just think that most people put more emphasis on the bible than they really should. But that's just my opnion.
    Last edited by Csargo; 10-02-2006 at 04:37.
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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Csar
    I'm a religious I just think that most people put more emphasis on the bible than they really should. But that's just my opnion.
    Yes, I agree fully. Having been a kid, who attended Catholic School, our Bishop and subsequent teachers would continuously pound into our heads that the bible was never meant to be literal.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    This is not correct. The notion of man as inherently evil (as seen in the notion of Original Sin) is a product of the 5th Century ala St. Augustine. Due to Augustine's massive impact on Latin Christianity both Roman Catholicism and its heir Protestantism generally hold to this view. The same cannot be said of the Greek Tradition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Actually this is not correct and the original post was.
    Not so. My post was correct both in its doctrinal scope and theological chronology. As a simple illustration of the former: Bishop Kallistos is perhaps the most famous advocate of the Orthodox Church in the English speaking world. He writes in explaining the beliefs of Eastern Orthodoxy:

    "Orthodox do not say, as Calvin said, that man after the fall was utterly depraved and incapable of good desires. They cannot agree with Augustine, when he writes that man is under ‘a harsh necessity’ of committing sin, and that ‘man’s nature was overcome by the fault into which it fell, and so came to lack freedom’ ...And Orthodox have never held (as Augustine and many others in the west have done) that unbaptized babies, because tainted with original guilt, are consigned by the just God to the everlasting games of Hell. The Orthodox picture of fallen humanity is far less sombre than the Augustinian or Calvinist view."

    One shouldn't confuse a personal sectarian penchant for the whole of Christendom.

    Jesus himself has said that mankind is inherently evil...
    No such citation exists.
    Last edited by Pindar; 10-02-2006 at 05:32.

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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    As far as I'm concerned, brushing aside theological differences and schools of thought, Christianity is the belief that Christ was the saviour of mankind or the equivalent in a different wording. As a religion, it's an extension of Judaism. Christians are people who adhere to the belief, but are also, by extension, Jews. Christians and 'proper' Jews, despite differences in belief, faith, doctrine and other details, generally maintain a certain sense of morality. Pragmatically speaking, a man who believes in no Christ but acts and thinks the same way as a Christian is a Christian.

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Well... by the Old Testament, in Christianity it is believed that man/woman are born inheirantly evil. Yes, we get that. However, Jesus and God are forgiving, and well... most sins are considered forgiveable. The only sin that really sticks out in my mind that Jesus could not forgive was abusing and/or sexually abusing a child.

    I once asked our Parish Master (Bishop), what is something that you would have to do to get into hell. He pondered for a bit, and said "Genocidals, Child Abusers, and People that refuse to ask for foregiveness."

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizashi
    Well... by the Old Testament, in Christianity it is believed that man/woman are born inheirantly evil.
    This is not correct. Read post #24.

    The only sin that really sticks out in my mind that Jesus could not forgive was abusing and/or sexually abusing a child.
    No such citation exists.

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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    One shouldn't confuse a personal sectarian penchant for the whole of Christendom.
    I think, if we are to keep this civil, we need to aviod emotive terms like "sectarian" and "penchant". Christianity is a divided religion, so the beliefs of Orthodox Christians are no more or less "sectarian" than Calvinists or Catholics and since the Protestant and Catholic traditions are so large within Christendom, it is hardly fair to refer to them as "personal" and "penchant".

    What would be more interesting would be more detail of the Orthodox view on fallen humanity and exactly what was the nature and meaning of the sacrifice on the cross.

    I am not sure why you are presenting Augustine as a western Saint. He was a doctor of the early church, before the schism and his teaching on unbaptized infants going to hell is not accepted by the Catholic church either.

    Jesus himself has said that mankind is inherently evil...

    No such citation exists.
    Lets see if Navros can provide one.
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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    No such citation exists.
    "Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin." [Luke 17:1-2]

    Little ones mean children. In the case of children the seriousness of the sin is compounded because they are humans under development. And it will affect them for the rest of their lives.

    I need to find more quotes, but I know for a fact they do exist. I remember him saying something about fire and brimstone in regards to sexual predators.

    As far as Inheirantly Evil Quotes Go: Heres one for ya!

    "For by one man's (Adam) disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's (Christ-God incarnate) many will be made righteous."

    Romans 5:19


    Edit: on the other hand, the bible does contadict itself earlier on by saying:

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
    Ezekiel 18:20

    I personally don't believe in original sin, and I think it was edited into the bible much later on so they could easily convert non-believers.
    Last edited by Samurai Waki; 10-02-2006 at 07:06.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion Part I: Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester
    I think, if we are to keep this civil, we need to aviod emotive terms like "sectarian" and "penchant".
    Hello,

    Sectarian is not an emotive term. It refers to sects and what relates to the same. In this case the sectarian issue is the idea man is inherently evil. This view is not shared by all of Christendom. Of the three main sects that comprise Christianity one of them rejects it. The same can be said for Oriental Christianity (Copts and other Monophysite sects of the East). It is therefore inaccurate to ascribe a sect(s) specific position to the religion as a whole which is the aim of the thread.

    Penchant is not necessarily an emotive term either. It refers to a proclivity. In this thread several posts have confused sect specific views for the faith as a whole. The initial post puts forward a basic stance on Christianity and asks for corrections if warranted. For those who answer to confuse a part for the whole is to fail to deal with the intent of the thread.

    I am not sure why you are presenting Augustine as a western Saint.
    I did not refer to St. Augustine as a Western Saint. I did note his massive impact on Latin Christianity. He had no such influence on the Greek Tradition. There are several reasons for this. One being Augustine knew little to no Greek. His works were all composed in Latin. Another is the questions Augustine was concerned with were not of major interest in the East.

    (U)nbaptized infants going to hell is not accepted by the Catholic church either.
    This is not correct. Limbo is a degree of hell. It is distinct from Purgatory.


    (The consignment of unbaptized infants to Limbo is St. Thomas by the by.)
    Last edited by Pindar; 10-02-2006 at 10:04.

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    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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