Koinon Hellenon " weakness "

[Pelopidas]

I post here because something disturb me in my KH party.

I've been playing for a long long time, letting my neighbours growing up for more fun, like ever.
Just destroying Epeiros, Pontus and Makedonia, for a good " Homeland ".
But with KH it seems to me that there's a real problem: their best unit, the Thorakitai Hoplitai, is in no way a challenge for the real elite troops of the Lagide and Seleucids.

With larges armies of well trained and armed Thorakotai Hoplitai, no victory possible.
At the beginning, I just think that the problem came from the IA, who as never shown herself brillant, but losing 2200 Thorakitai for only 350 kills seems a little " space ".
So I take every battle myself and then I was...surprised.

Three units of Thorakitai ( trained and everything ) are absolutly incapable of beating a single unit of Lagide Klerouchoi Agemata, worse ever, one of the three unit was attacking the Klerouchoi from behind.
In fact the three units were decimated and routed.

Actually, the IA has 4 full stack of Klerouchoi and Galatian Agemata ultra-trained and is rampaging my lands, decimating the armies of mercs and elites Greek troop I send against them in large numerous superiority.

So I'me asking: am I simply a very bad general who can only win with Rome ?

Or there is more units who will be displayed for KH in the next version ? ( I read something about Spartans... )
Is this a real inferiority or I am only a nut ?

[CountArach]

I'm really not surprised that you lost that fight. THe key to victory with KH is to defend whenever possible. Keep your phalanxes in line and move right into your enemy's face.

Once they are pinned down, flank them.

Rinse, lather, repeat... always repeat.

Out of interest, what difficulty battles are you playing?

[Sdragon]

Klerouchoi are damn nasty and I'ed only imagine you losing so badly if they have an uber general and full experience. Once all their experienced guys are dead you wont be seeing anymore unless you make peace for a while. They are an over powered unit, too many guys in it unlike over elite units.

[Mujalumbo]

Yeah, Kleruchoi Agemata are among the hardest infantry units in the game. I dunno, I'd suspect your battle difficulty.

In my experience, on M difficulty, Thorakitai Hoplitai are a very nice unit to use; good armour stat means they're tough all around, excellent morale means they shouldn't rout easily if things go sideways... I dunno.

The western European factions seem more like "mob the guys together and throw 'em at the enemy" types of units. Makedonia, Arche Seleukia and the Koinen Hellenon require a bit more finesse. I mean, you CAN sit there and let your hoplitai/phalangitai slog it out, but you'll win battles faster if you use your full compliment of troops to their potential.

But anyway...

If you can, take down the general right away. If he's a family member, he might help out by doing something stupid like charging your infantry lines.

Use your cavalry; you get Hippeis (meh) and Thessalian cavalry. Use your hoplitai units to engage the enemy infantry, mass your cavalry on the flanks at least, directly behind at best, the enemy unit, and charge. Repeat as neccessary.

Toxotai I'm not so sure about. I haven't found a great use for them. I guess they're alright for standing behind your line and lobbing fire arrows at the enemy. If you can, get slingers and maneuver them to the enemy's right flank (the side without the shield) or rear.

If you get the enemy units under fire, surrounded, and charged by cav, you just might get them to rout.

I know earlier I said Hippeis are "meh," but they're fast which means good for running down routers. As an alternative strategy, you might wanna let stragglers go instead of completely destroying the unit; the AI usually doesn't retrain units, you see.

[CountArach]

On the point about Toxotai, they suck. You can get Sphendonetai instead, and they are brilliant against Heavy Cavalry (Watch them take out Hetairoi). Toxotai would only have a use if they were supported by two sphendonetai units and the Toxotai were using Fire arrows.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, but you gotta have fire arrows in your cities as garrisons (two units for me usually) to help defend against sieges. Then one usually accompanies my field armies too, to hit shaken units at just the right time in battle and make them rout (with fire arrows).

[-Praetor-]

I remember palying with the KH in the summer, like 8 months ago (BTW, i live on the southern hemisphere). I was happy having holded the maks at bay, and making friends with the epirotes. In a very bad moment, I decided to conquer Asia Minor, inorder to free the greeks in the area, and bring peace to a land devastated by 14 years of fight (the areas surrounding the cities were all black and devastated).

All was well, I was winning an attrition war against Pontus, kicked the Arche Seleukeia in the ***, but suddenly I came withing sight of one of the provinces of my beloved friends, the ptolemaioi.

In the area near Ancyra I placed a full stack army, with some of my best and most seasoned troops (8 Iphicratean hoplites, 2 thorakitai hoplites, 2 thorakitai, 2 thureophoroi, 3 spendonethai, 2 hippeis, and my 2nd in charge of the area, everyone with at least 2 silver chevrons - somethin` like a panzerdivision) in order to watch over the area, but the ptolis wanted to have a party on the area, so they threw in a full stack in the zone, and attacked me while we were allies .

In the battle, I was over a smooth hill, with not a single tree. I waited with my phalanxes totally arranged, confident that I would kick in the arse anything they wanted to throw at me. With such an army, and such a beautiful ground, I had nothing to fear.

The enemy army wasted no time, and started marching on me. When they were closer, I saw that they had like 2 pantadopoi, and some 3 ethiopitai agemata, some 3 chleruchoi agemata, many pezhetairoi, 2 hetairoi, and 4 of those galatians with white trousers... no missile units BTW.

When they were in range of my slingers, i started to throw at them volley after volley, for a welcome...

When they charged... you know... it was not nice. It was mean. It was the first time I was truly overwhelmed by the potency of a enemy army. When the enemy attack your town with a fullstack against your 3 militia units, you know what`s going to happen. Here, I didn`t. I was totally surprised.

The ethiopians charged against my hoplites in the center-left, came within contact with the wall of spears, penetrated it, and came within contact of my hoplites. Right after that, they hacked right through my thorakitai hoplitai (from the front), and in that very minute I noticed that something was going very wrong.

My flanks were quickly routed by a combined attack of galatians and kleruchoi agemata. My center holded against the pezhetairoi, but my thureophoroi and thorakitai in both flanks where cut to shreds... my flanks suddenly became totally vulnerable. I tried to control the situation on my right flank by sending the slingers in a sickel manouver, in order to make them fire in the back of the galatians, but somehow they met the hetairoi and... end of story, none of them survived (3 units of slingers)...

Eventually, my center was surrounded in the minute the ethiopians routed the left flank, the galatians massacred the right, and my 8 units of iphicratean hoplites were attacked from all sides by the ethiopians, galatians, pezhetairoi and the kleruchoi agemata.

These dastards opened a whole can of whoopass on me (lucky me that I was their friend, otherwise they would`ve thrown me anthrax or something like that)... and if the hardcode limits would have allower it, my general would have commited suicide for the depression that he had after that...

The result, my 2nd best army was wiped out of the face of the earth, and the ptolemaioi were looming into the heartland of my newly conquered regions.

[Pelopidas]

Ok, so I'm not the only poor guy in this story ^^

I play in very hard battle difficulty, if it was in doubt.

Thanks for the advice, but_ hélas _ I already know all this.
I play KH especially for the challenge, and for the balanced forces.

My very mistake was letting the Ptolemaoi gaining so much Xp, two of his armies are only full gold xp, the two others not far behind.
I suppose they get some fun with Seleukid levies...lots of fun in fact.

The difference in XP change everything between our elites.
My new strategy is to storm and destroy on phalange after one, with mercs, one Klerouchoi per turn...I'm not out of the storm now :p

My Toxotai exist only in my cities, it's simply so entertaining to burn out every war machine of the IA...

k_raso , thanks for your battle description, I see we have a common experience !

[QwertyMIDX]

On VH you'll never have anything that can go to toe to toe with enemy elites, they're getting an artifical +7 attack, +7 DS bonus, and some morale bonuses too I think.

[NeoSpartan]

My friend I am sorry to say that you are being a bad General with KH in VH/VH.

I am playing with KH in VH/VH and I am running into the same problems as you. But I can say have yet to loose a battle against the Potlemoi and have kicked them out of the middle east, and I am ready to take Alexandria. Thx to the dumb AI.

Whats the strategy, well I have main 2 strategies:

1- Before the actual Battle.
-Position ur army on the Up Slope. (sometimes you can't)

-NEVER position your army on the Down Slope, retreat if you can't get to the Up Slope.

-Let the Enemy attack you on the Turn Base map. For this will make the AI run to your position and tire its units once the Battle map opens up.

-Attack the AI when it has its armies DIVIDED (1/2 stack or 1/3), don't wait for the AI to Join its armies.

-Recruit Penzeroi (sp) Mersenaries, whenever posible.

2- Battle map Strategy:
-Have long line of Thorakotai Hoplitai, with Thorakotai and Hippeis Xystophoroi on the flanks. I ussually have (or like to have) 2 Hippeis Xystophoroi + 3 Thorakotai on the flanks.

-Use the Thorakotai and your Hippies X to destroy the flanks of the enemy. Also, involve your Peltats, and/or your General in one of the flanks to more quickly destroy that flank. And IF possible, involve the closest Thorakotai Hoplitai.
-The point here is to destroy the enemy flanks quickly. Always try to envelop the enemy units, that way u kill them quickly.

-I always have my Thorakotai Hoplitai in HOLD, I don't want them to break the line or try to push against the pikes. Otherwise they will die Faster.

-Then once the enemy flanks are destroyed, I do the classic Hammer & Anvil.

And thats the end of it

[abou]

I'm still confused as to why people are still playing campaigns on VH/VH; only to be shocked at their units infirmity when they are told to never go higher than M on battle difficulty.

[Pelopidas]

Because I've already done some campaigns in VH/VH.
Rome, Carthage and the Lagid are easy to play, even with this difficulty.

Now I have reverse the steam and I've burned Alexandria...it was so sweat to be there, after 40 years of war...

But with such difficulty, you have to make all battle by yourself if you want to have a chance...sometimes boring, yes.

My strategist friend, I heard you well, but all this isn't enough, sometimes.

The exemple I get previously was in a battle like you describ, with a perfect defensive situation for me.

[NeoSpartan]

hum..... I see.

I'll try to play my KH campain in the next few days again, I remember Potlemoi is building an army and I almost ready to move in to Alexandria. I'll try to fight that battle against the Potlemoi FULL stack, with me attacking the AI army without positioning myself on a very steep slope.

Last time I fought a huge army of Elites was agaisnt AS and I was on a Steep Up-Hill slope.

Hopefully the AI will mantain a decent Army cohesion, and not send its units sporatically.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, what works best against those uber elites is having a good lot of Horse Archers ready to eat them alive... Honestly I have about 5 (experienced) unit's of horse archers in my main army against the Seleucids and they work wonders...

[BigTex]

I'm still confused as to why people are still playing campaigns on VH/VH; only to be shocked at their units infirmity when they are told to never go higher than M on battle difficulty.

I personally only play on Vh/VH. The battles are just way to easy on medium. I tryed my first campaign as carthage and after 100 years with only 3 defeats all being naval it just became so boring. Very Hard is a challenge, the battles are intense and are impossible to win head to head against another. I've had many battles were I've completely lost, thrilling compared to vanilla. Though recently as Seleukeia I had a battle against the ptolem's were my king was outnumberd little over 2:1 against an army mostly composed of gelatians pez and those god awful klerouchio, not to mention a couple units of elephants. It was intense but when all was said and done the great king of Arche Seleukeia managed to get a herioc victory, losing 54 brave men to ptol's 4300.

Pelopidas ya just gotta understand your armies strengths and your enemies weaknesses better. Those pike units are completely and untterly inflexable, once they begin the attack they arent going to be able to change their minds. Their shock troops are also very fast compared to their main line, they'll often be lured into an early charge which you can repulse quickly if you can throw enough at them quick enought to get that rout. Some good advice when your facing pike units is to have your line in a stepped formation, much like hannible's double envelope. The steps will cause those pike units to bend and turn their flanks to the men behind the main line when they engage the front of your line. That can cause alot of fear, and means less contact with your main line. Also this allows you to quickly envelope them when they have committed. Always use peltasti if your a faction that has them. Throw them infront, let them harras the enemy and pull them back and keep them as a reserve, they are very strong melee units. Gluck hope some of this helps.
__________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.

BigTex

Ridicolus
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb

[Pelopidas]

Yes, I've trained a lot in custom battle and have a best grip on my armies now.

I was a fanatic Baktrian player in the time, and being too accustomed to this damn good Hippeis Toxotai is not a good way ^^

But I have tested every faction in custom and battle ( never done this since the 0.78 patch ) and I simply fall in love for Epeiros.
Their army is JUST was I've been looking for, with this cheap Illyrian levies who gave a warm welcome to the ennemy cavalry, and put up a goob fight in woods. The rest is a perfect successor army, my favorite way.

Perhaps I'll give you an AAR, when I've learned how to use and incorporated printed screens.

( Winter 256: fall of Rome...guhuhuhu... )

[Elthore]

I am curious, who are the Lagid? The Makedonians?
If you like Epeiros, you must surely love Pontos! Those Kappodocians are nice and cheap and good and powerful and fast and ...sexy Too bad the rest of their roster wasnt complete for .74, but they should have a real neat army selection in 0.8(hope those chariots are staying!)

[Pelopidas]

Lagid: ptolemaic faction, the ruling dynasty, sons of Ptolemée, was named Lagid in honor of Lagos, father of the foundator.
The Makedonians: the kingdom of Makedonia, ruled by the Antigonides.

I didn't like much of Pontos...not enough Persian ( I prefer the Baktrian for this ) and not enough hellenized...and cavalry is not my winning componant, the first use of cavalry in my play is to stop the opponant cavalry, support my phalanx by harassing the ennemy lines from behind and, above all, hunt dawn and chase the routing units...

[pezhetairoi]

the first use of cavalry in my play is to stop the opponant cavalry, support my phalanx by harassing the ennemy lines from behind and, above all, hunt dawn and chase the routing units...

aaaactually, I think that's all the uses of cavalry you can have in an EB battle. XD I can't think of another use for them, really. I use my cavalry as a strike force all on their own, really.

Once, with 2 general's cav and 4 equites Romani, i routed a makedonian fullstack involving hetairoi, hippeis thessalikoi, pezhetairoi, thureophoroi, hypaspistai and pheraspidai. Oh I had my Roman fullstack of infantry on the field, but that withdrew when the Maks wouldn't advance. Only after they had disappeared off the map did the Maks advance, on my cav who had remained behind to cover the rear. Good thing I did too, it was a perfect opportunity for a heroic victory! They were everywhere, like Napoleon's corps d'armee, separating against targets, combining to break single ones to open up again, fluid, everything a cavalry battle should be. And to make my life easier, the maks, to pursue my withdrawing infantry, had broken their line. I was charging through a huge wedge of Swiss cheese.

Sure they were depleted after that, reduced from full strength to 30-40 apiece, but my god, it was a victory where I foresaw only defeat or retreat! Glorious.

[Pelopidas]

Sure !
Always send more than one single unit of cavalry against one target...
With the massive shock and the moral sinking because of the charges, you can make rout an ennemy unit in a matter of seconds and utterly destroy this poor footmen who ran for they lives...

[NeoSpartan]

Update:
Ok so I just fought the Ptolemaioi in VH/VH as KH, bellow you will see a recap of the battle:

I had yet to take on a Ptolemaioi army of Elites, on an even ground, and with an even number of units (not individial sodiers, in that case I was outnumbered), and with me initiating the battle on the Campain map.

Check it:

1-Since I outnumbered the AI, I sent some of troops back and kept 12. If things truned out ugly, I would commit them a.k.a the Reserves.



2-


3-


4-


5-


6-


7-


8-

EDIT: "SO I COMMIT THE RESERVES BEFORE THE LINE BREAK AND/OR MY GENERAL GETS KILLED"

9-



In CONCLUSION for VH/VH:
-Use the ground to your advante.
-Outnumber them.
-Let them attack you in the campain map(if facing full stacks),
-And most importantly attacking when the armies are divided.

Remember the Succesors have PIKES and 120 men-groups..... KH's Hopilia don't have either. (p.s I think (as in assuming) EB won't give KH Pikes in .8)

May the gods be with u....

[Lovejoy]

I'm playing KH game just as we speak. It's been great fun so far. Epieros(sp) is my ally and are battling with the macs, while I'm on a epic quest to slain Pontos and to save that Greek city, you know which :P

So far no luck though. I've send two stacks to Pontos, both have been killed, by the same army no less. Its a unbeatable army. It contain 15 high xp heavy cav. No more no less.

I've no idea how to slay that bastard. They use all there cav and single out one single hoplite and charge it with everthing. He routes as soon as he is hit, and they just roll over my army from there.

(Incompatible language - Mod) UNBELIVABLE.

I'm driven by revange as I am sending yet another stack to the land of Pontos.

Argh...

[Reverend Joe]

Bribe it.

[NeoSpartan]

What is the army that ur sending composed off?

Also, position your troops on the foot of a mountan and let Pontus attack it. Once the battle starts form ur army on top of the steep hill.

[Avicenna]

No, no, no. It's ANATOLIA. Mountains aren't the game... bridges are!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hold out at fords, not bridges, for a little more realistic but still advantageous position.

[NeoSpartan]

Hold out at fords, not bridges, for a little more realistic but still advantageous position.

hum... forts I never thought of that one.

But can u build forts on enemy territory?

Bridges are good too, but mountains and hills are more common than bridges though.

[Lovejoy]

Yeah, thanks for the tips. A fort will be useful I can tell!

I'm just finished with my third stack of soldiers. And it wil be led by the faction leader himself!

Wish me luck.

[Reverend Joe]

hum... forts I never thought of that one.

But can u build forts on enemy territory?

Bridges are good too, but mountains and hills are more common than bridges though.

Not forts, fords. Fords are a realistic way of choking the enemy off at a river crossing.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, as Z said, fords, not forts.

We have even looked into trying to get rid of all bridges, but it's hardcoded as roads develop and it doesn't seem like they are able to be removed while roads are kept.