Koinon Hellenon " weakness "

[Sdragon]

Klerouchoi are damn nasty and I'ed only imagine you losing so badly if they have an uber general and full experience. Once all their experienced guys are dead you wont be seeing anymore unless you make peace for a while. They are an over powered unit, too many guys in it unlike over elite units.

[Mujalumbo]

Yeah, Kleruchoi Agemata are among the hardest infantry units in the game. I dunno, I'd suspect your battle difficulty.

In my experience, on M difficulty, Thorakitai Hoplitai are a very nice unit to use; good armour stat means they're tough all around, excellent morale means they shouldn't rout easily if things go sideways... I dunno.

The western European factions seem more like "mob the guys together and throw 'em at the enemy" types of units. Makedonia, Arche Seleukia and the Koinen Hellenon require a bit more finesse. I mean, you CAN sit there and let your hoplitai/phalangitai slog it out, but you'll win battles faster if you use your full compliment of troops to their potential.

But anyway...

If you can, take down the general right away. If he's a family member, he might help out by doing something stupid like charging your infantry lines.

Use your cavalry; you get Hippeis (meh) and Thessalian cavalry. Use your hoplitai units to engage the enemy infantry, mass your cavalry on the flanks at least, directly behind at best, the enemy unit, and charge. Repeat as neccessary.

Toxotai I'm not so sure about. I haven't found a great use for them. I guess they're alright for standing behind your line and lobbing fire arrows at the enemy. If you can, get slingers and maneuver them to the enemy's right flank (the side without the shield) or rear.

If you get the enemy units under fire, surrounded, and charged by cav, you just might get them to rout.

I know earlier I said Hippeis are "meh," but they're fast which means good for running down routers. As an alternative strategy, you might wanna let stragglers go instead of completely destroying the unit; the AI usually doesn't retrain units, you see.

[CountArach]

On the point about Toxotai, they suck. You can get Sphendonetai instead, and they are brilliant against Heavy Cavalry (Watch them take out Hetairoi). Toxotai would only have a use if they were supported by two sphendonetai units and the Toxotai were using Fire arrows.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, but you gotta have fire arrows in your cities as garrisons (two units for me usually) to help defend against sieges. Then one usually accompanies my field armies too, to hit shaken units at just the right time in battle and make them rout (with fire arrows).

[-Praetor-]

I remember palying with the KH in the summer, like 8 months ago (BTW, i live on the southern hemisphere). I was happy having holded the maks at bay, and making friends with the epirotes. In a very bad moment, I decided to conquer Asia Minor, inorder to free the greeks in the area, and bring peace to a land devastated by 14 years of fight (the areas surrounding the cities were all black and devastated).

All was well, I was winning an attrition war against Pontus, kicked the Arche Seleukeia in the ***, but suddenly I came withing sight of one of the provinces of my beloved friends, the ptolemaioi.

In the area near Ancyra I placed a full stack army, with some of my best and most seasoned troops (8 Iphicratean hoplites, 2 thorakitai hoplites, 2 thorakitai, 2 thureophoroi, 3 spendonethai, 2 hippeis, and my 2nd in charge of the area, everyone with at least 2 silver chevrons - somethin` like a panzerdivision) in order to watch over the area, but the ptolis wanted to have a party on the area, so they threw in a full stack in the zone, and attacked me while we were allies .

In the battle, I was over a smooth hill, with not a single tree. I waited with my phalanxes totally arranged, confident that I would kick in the arse anything they wanted to throw at me. With such an army, and such a beautiful ground, I had nothing to fear.

The enemy army wasted no time, and started marching on me. When they were closer, I saw that they had like 2 pantadopoi, and some 3 ethiopitai agemata, some 3 chleruchoi agemata, many pezhetairoi, 2 hetairoi, and 4 of those galatians with white trousers... no missile units BTW.

When they were in range of my slingers, i started to throw at them volley after volley, for a welcome...

When they charged... you know... it was not nice. It was mean. It was the first time I was truly overwhelmed by the potency of a enemy army. When the enemy attack your town with a fullstack against your 3 militia units, you know what`s going to happen. Here, I didn`t. I was totally surprised.

The ethiopians charged against my hoplites in the center-left, came within contact with the wall of spears, penetrated it, and came within contact of my hoplites. Right after that, they hacked right through my thorakitai hoplitai (from the front), and in that very minute I noticed that something was going very wrong.

My flanks were quickly routed by a combined attack of galatians and kleruchoi agemata. My center holded against the pezhetairoi, but my thureophoroi and thorakitai in both flanks where cut to shreds... my flanks suddenly became totally vulnerable. I tried to control the situation on my right flank by sending the slingers in a sickel manouver, in order to make them fire in the back of the galatians, but somehow they met the hetairoi and... end of story, none of them survived (3 units of slingers)...

Eventually, my center was surrounded in the minute the ethiopians routed the left flank, the galatians massacred the right, and my 8 units of iphicratean hoplites were attacked from all sides by the ethiopians, galatians, pezhetairoi and the kleruchoi agemata.

These dastards opened a whole can of whoopass on me (lucky me that I was their friend, otherwise they would`ve thrown me anthrax or something like that)... and if the hardcode limits would have allower it, my general would have commited suicide for the depression that he had after that...

The result, my 2nd best army was wiped out of the face of the earth, and the ptolemaioi were looming into the heartland of my newly conquered regions.

[Pelopidas]

Ok, so I'm not the only poor guy in this story ^^

I play in very hard battle difficulty, if it was in doubt.

Thanks for the advice, but_ hélas _ I already know all this.
I play KH especially for the challenge, and for the balanced forces.

My very mistake was letting the Ptolemaoi gaining so much Xp, two of his armies are only full gold xp, the two others not far behind.
I suppose they get some fun with Seleukid levies...lots of fun in fact.

The difference in XP change everything between our elites.
My new strategy is to storm and destroy on phalange after one, with mercs, one Klerouchoi per turn...I'm not out of the storm now :p

My Toxotai exist only in my cities, it's simply so entertaining to burn out every war machine of the IA...

k_raso , thanks for your battle description, I see we have a common experience !

[QwertyMIDX]

On VH you'll never have anything that can go to toe to toe with enemy elites, they're getting an artifical +7 attack, +7 DS bonus, and some morale bonuses too I think.

[NeoSpartan]

My friend I am sorry to say that you are being a bad General with KH in VH/VH.

I am playing with KH in VH/VH and I am running into the same problems as you. But I can say have yet to loose a battle against the Potlemoi and have kicked them out of the middle east, and I am ready to take Alexandria. Thx to the dumb AI.

Whats the strategy, well I have main 2 strategies:

1- Before the actual Battle.
-Position ur army on the Up Slope. (sometimes you can't)

-NEVER position your army on the Down Slope, retreat if you can't get to the Up Slope.

-Let the Enemy attack you on the Turn Base map. For this will make the AI run to your position and tire its units once the Battle map opens up.

-Attack the AI when it has its armies DIVIDED (1/2 stack or 1/3), don't wait for the AI to Join its armies.

-Recruit Penzeroi (sp) Mersenaries, whenever posible.

2- Battle map Strategy:
-Have long line of Thorakotai Hoplitai, with Thorakotai and Hippeis Xystophoroi on the flanks. I ussually have (or like to have) 2 Hippeis Xystophoroi + 3 Thorakotai on the flanks.

-Use the Thorakotai and your Hippies X to destroy the flanks of the enemy. Also, involve your Peltats, and/or your General in one of the flanks to more quickly destroy that flank. And IF possible, involve the closest Thorakotai Hoplitai.
-The point here is to destroy the enemy flanks quickly. Always try to envelop the enemy units, that way u kill them quickly.

-I always have my Thorakotai Hoplitai in HOLD, I don't want them to break the line or try to push against the pikes. Otherwise they will die Faster.

-Then once the enemy flanks are destroyed, I do the classic Hammer & Anvil.

And thats the end of it