Multiplayer blog is up

[gunslinger]

I'm not usually one to blather on and on about what I hope they will do with the game,but if they are going to make cavalry virtually defenceless when they're not charging, then I hope they also include a command for charging and immediately withdrawing (from that fight, not the battle). I guess another option would be to make cavalry strong enough to charge straight through several ranks of infantry, killing some and just running past others. Even in MTW single player, you could get into trouble if you let your cavalry charge a flank, and then didn't stick around to micromanage it back out of there. You could give it an order to run to another spot on the battlefield, but as soon as a unit took a swing at them, your cavalry would stop and fight.

Sounds like they've also gotten away from the rock, paper, scissors thing. There's no reason I can think of that armored men on armored horses weilding swords and/or lances shouldn't be able to fight a stand-up battle against armored men on the ground weilding swords, or clubs, or axes, or pitchforks, etc.

Of course a horde of peasants should be able to deal with a single knight, but no way should a unit or two of peasants be able to deal with a unit of knights, even if it is a prolonged static battle.

[JR-]

the 3v2 seige game sounds like ace fun!

[Ituralde]

It sounds great.

Hearing that from Puzz3D. Never thought it could happen...

I really like the stuff he's talking about and for the first time I might really go into the TW Multiplayer experience big time. With M:TW I didn't have a connection to the internet, with R:TW the gameplay bugged me off.
M2:TW seems to be progressing well. Only problem I have now is to get a computer that will let me play it online without lags due to the bad performance of my system.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

We'll see...

Sure it's better news that if they had done nothing to fix all that, but it's still not going to make me buy it on release. I'll need to hear from Yuuki, Mordred and CBR once the game is out before I consider buying it.

A lot of that shall have been done a long time ago

Louis,

[Puzz3D]

Units Size & Game Pace: In M2TW we have set 4 playable unit sizes so that all types of game speeds can be realized. On small you will have a unit size slightly bigger than RTW’s normal that will play very similar, fast and furious. On normal you will get a unit size similar to MTW’s normal, that plays fast but gives you a little more time to incorporate more tactics. On large and huge you will still get games with a nice pace but they will be a tactical extravaganza showcasing lots of death and destruction.

Crikey, I don't want to rain on your parade when you are making a rare upbeat post, but are you sure there is a solution to the gamespeed issue in the blog? I totally missed it on the first reading, read your post and went back - all I can find is a reference to four unit size settings, with the larger ones taking longer to play. But it's by no means obvious that a larger a unit size will be associated with slower movement speeds or kill rates. A larger unit size will lead to a longer game just because there is more to kill.

Or am I missing something here?

I interpreted "game speed" to be both movement and fighting speed. The adjustable speed setting affects everything including momement, and all CA has to do is link the unit size selected to a speed setting. I'm assuming here that they have made reasonable walk/run speed ratios.

Even if it isn't the case, we know the movement speeds have been slowed to some extent from the reports and brief video of the preview in Germany. It's also clear that the unit size doesn't change by a factor of 2 on each step as it did in RTW because small is larger than RTW normal and normal is similar to MTW normal. In RTW, going from normal (40) to large (80) skipped over MTW's normal (60). So I'm thinking that M2TW large will be around 80.

Palamedes has played MTW online. I don't see how he can say large unit size will be a "tactical extravaganza" if it doesn't approach that of MTW. He was supposedly hired by CA to help them bring back the tactical gameplay that was lost in RTW. Since they are addressing things such as overlapping units and worrying about upgrades unbalancing the game, I can't imagine them sabotaging that effort by not providing a game speed that allows for substantial tactical thinking during a battle.

[econ21]

Well, Puzz3D, no disrespect, but the world has turned upside down when you are more optimistic about M2TW than I. But in the text you quote there is no clear reference to their being settings for game speed - the main text only talks about adjusting unit size. I agree that an "adjustable speed setting" would be the easy and obvious solution to the debate about whether RTW was too fast (let the players pick the speed they are prefer). But do you have any information such a setting is in the game? What you quote does not convince me it is.

I am more open to the idea that M2TW will play slower anyway, without an adjustable setting, but I'd need to play the demo to be sure.

[Puzz3D]

Well, Puzz3D, no disrespect, but the world has turned upside down when you are more optimistic about M2TW than I. But in the text you quote there is no clear reference to their being settings for game speed - the main text only talks about adjusting unit size. I agree that an "adjustable speed setting" would be the easy and obvious solution to the debate about whether RTW was too fast (let the players pick the speed they are prefer). But do you have any information such a setting is in the game? What you quote does not convince me it is.

I am more open to the idea that M2TW will play slower anyway, without an adjustable setting, but I'd need to play the demo to be sure.

There was a big difference between normal and huge init size in RTW. GilJaysmith suggesed playing on huge in answer to players saying the gameplay was too fast. It didn't work. It was still too fast. Palamedes knows this. How can he be claiming that battles with large unit size in M2TW are a tactical extravaganza? His paragraph indicates that both types of players will be satisfied, by choosing the appropriate unit size. I think there has to be something to this other than simply larger unit size because that solution didn't work in RTW.

I can see a gamespeed setting in the pictures. So, there is a gamespeed setting. I suspect it cannot be set below 1.0 by the player, but the game could do it based on the unit size selected. Palamedes is using the term "gamespeed". I hope he isn't making a new definition for this term for his blog.

[CBR]

How can he be claiming that battles with large unit size in M2TW are a tactical extravaganza?

If one sets the standards low enough, even slower killing/routing will mean wonders to tactics

I really doubt its something advanced as different movement setting, just because of different unit size. I think its pretty simple: the more men per unit the more ranks and the longer it takes before a units gets killed off. And that certainly works in RTW and was IIRC what GilJaysmith was thinking about when he recommended increasing unit size.

Some of us hardcore people thinks in terms of movement rate AND kill rate, but I guess some people just put that together into one term like battlespeed, gamespeed or whatever.


CBR

[Martok]

Strangely, I find myself agreeing with Puzz (I say "strangely" because I've not been terribly optimistic person in regards to the game either). I also took Palamedes to mean that the actual battle speeds has been reduced, and not that the pace would be slower simply because units are larger. Were it otherwise, I'm quite certain Palamedes would've said so.

As econ and others have pointed out, however, playing the demo should give us a pretty good idea one way or the other.

[Hunter KIng George]

Well overall seems like terrific news! I am estastic with the news of their efforts to solve some of the issues surrounding MP! I will remain optimistic and hope for the best!

[Nobunaga]

we can judge by the demo when it is out

[Polemists]

Yea i tried to argue that once but these people need something to do between now and Oct 14-30. So they like to speculate and juggle

[TigerVX]

Great news, great news indeed. I played a scarce few games in MTW online, but the ones I do I remember and cherish. I remember having a classical battle in a 3v3, in which my opponent and I dueled out with skirmishers and Pavise's for a bit when our fellow teammates launched massive attacks at each other from the start. Suffice to say, I came out on top, just barely, and mopped up the battlefield with my intact army. My allies and enemies across the field had all but annihilated each other in the melee.

In RTW, my only memories are people spamming 15 Egyptian pharaoh cavalry and 5 Egyptian royal archers, and never being able to beat the vicious blobs or cheap tactics that ruled.

This news on the return to the MTW kind of multiplayer is heartening, and I hope that it will play out more like MTW, and not RTW.

And guys, how about instead of speculating about combat speeds and such and tearing into each other's opinions, we wait for the next Blog? He has clearly stated that the next blog will be about morale and fatigue. And considering they most likely know most people the frequent a developer blog are hardcore fans, his statement that we'll love the upcoming news seems like a good sign to me.

[screwtype]

I also took Palamedes to mean that the actual battle speeds has been reduced, and not that the pace would be slower simply because units are larger. Were it otherwise, I'm quite certain Palamedes would've said so.

I honestly think you guys are kidding yourselves. I cannot see CA taking the time to create different game speeds for different unit sizes. They've already told us a dozen times that kill speeds and so on are synchronized to soldier animations. How could they program different kill speeds in such circumstances? It would be a nightmare.

Nope. This is just about larger unit sizes taking longer to defeat in my opinion. And I'm sceptical that this will lead to a "tactical extravaganza" for the simple reason that while there are more soldiers to kill, there also more soldiers to do the killing. So I can't see that larger unit sizes will have that much of an effect on the game.

Which means in turn that the game is still going to be much too fast for the average tactical gamer. Naturally I'm hoping this is not the case, but it seems to be the logical conclusion from what's been said in this blog.

Anyhow, as others have said, the demo will clear up a lot of these questions one way or another. Hopefully it's not too far away now...

[Duke John]

The reason that huge size will result in slower gameplay and that it allows you to think over your tactics is simple: the games will lag as hell!

Larger unit size is nothing more than larger unit size. Don't get your hopes up that it introduces some extra modifiers to speed or morale. If it does then I can't understand why those modifiers aren't being seperated from unit size setting.

[Puzz3D]

I honestly think you guys are kidding yourselves. I cannot see CA taking the time to create different game speeds for different unit sizes. They've already told us a dozen times that kill speeds and so on are synchronized to soldier animations. How could they program different kill speeds in such circumstances? It would be a nightmare.

They already have different gamespeeds, and it slows down or speeds up everything including animations. If they don't offer a slower speed setting, it's because they don't want to. How can Palamedes use a term like "tactical extravaganza" if the gameplay is going to remain like RTW? RTW wasn't a tactical extravaganza with huge units, and Palamedes knows it.

Anyhow, as others have said, the demo will clear up a lot of these questions one way or another. Hopefully it's not too far away now...

The demo has no multiplayer, no campaign, unfinished AI, unfinished battle mechanics, jacked up units and scripted battles. I played the RTW demo, and it did not prepare me for the absolutely abysmal RTW multiplayer.

[Orda Khan]

The reason that huge size will result in slower gameplay and that it allows you to think over your tactics is simple: the games will lag as hell!

Larger unit size is nothing more than larger unit size. Don't get your hopes up that it introduces some extra modifiers to speed or morale. If it does then I can't understand why those modifiers aren't being seperated from unit size setting.

Took the words out of my mouth. The tactical extravaganza will be trying to control the curser

........Orda

[screwtype]

They already have different gamespeeds, and it slows down or speeds up everything including animations. If they don't offer a slower speed setting, it's because they don't want to. How can Palamedes use a term like "tactical extravaganza" if the gameplay is going to remain like RTW? RTW wasn't a tactical extravaganza with huge units, and Palamedes knows it.

Yeah but that sort of gamespeed change just speeds up everything across the board. If they had a mode that was actually slower than x1, that would mean units would be moving, firing and attacking in slow motion. Is that a viable solution for the speed problem? Doesn't sound like much of one to me.

The demo has no multiplayer, no campaign, unfinished AI, unfinished battle mechanics, jacked up units and scripted battles. I played the RTW demo, and it did not prepare me for the absolutely abysmal RTW multiplayer.

Technically you may be correct, but experientially, I found little difference between the RTW demo and the game when it was first released. So the demo certainly gave me an adequate sample of what the game itself would be like.

Multiplayer is obviously a different kettle of fish, but you MP guys soon found the battles to be too fast just as the SP crowd did. So it's not as though you are going to learn nothing from the demo. Indeed I suspect you'll be just as keen to get hold of your copy of the demo as the rest of us Puzz

[BDC]

Well at least it can't be worse than RTW MP. If a 0.1b mod can improve on the original game, you know something is seriously wrong with it. Hopefully some people got their knuckles wracked.

[screwtype]

Took the words out of my mouth. The tactical extravaganza will be trying to control the curser

........Orda

What a bunch of cynics!

[Puzz3D]

Yeah but that sort of gamespeed change just speeds up everything across the board. If they had a mode that was actually slower than x1, that would mean units would be moving, firing and attacking in slow motion. Is that a viable solution for the speed problem? Doesn't sound like much of one to me.

Since x1 is fast and furious, x0.7 would not be slow motion. If they don't provide that, they are clearly not interested in attracting the type of player to which the game originally appealed.

Multiplayer is obviously a different kettle of fish, but you MP guys soon found the battles to be too fast just as the SP crowd did. So it's not as though you are going to learn nothing from the demo. Indeed I suspect you'll be just as keen to get hold of your copy of the demo as the rest of us Puzz.

I'm not going to base my decision to purchase the game on the demo.

[screwtype]

Since x1 is fast and furious, x0.7 would not be slow motion. If they don't provide that, they are clearly not interested in attracting the type of player to which the game originally appealed.

Well yes, I guess that is a possibility. I'd certainly love to see something like that, I just don't want to get my hopes up until I've heard something definite I guess.

I'm not going to base my decision to purchase the game on the demo.

Me either. I'll be waiting to hear what your opinion is

[SirGrotius]

the 3v2 seige game sounds like ace fun!

Well said!

This blog was interesting, thanks for bringing it up.

[Cheetah]

Well, just let you guys know (as it seems it is not obvious) that it is one of the most skilled and experienced MP players doing the game balancing (and wrote this blog). Not me ... (which is a big change compared to rtw)

So have faith, as I have, that MTW2 will be much different than rtw or bi, I hope even better than MTW.

so Simurgh you can preorder your copy, you too CBR and Yuuki

Also tell Marco to visit the RTK forums more often, you can come too

[Nobunaga]

but what if the talk was only for the sake of good publicity

[Polemists]

haha I on other hand already love the game and long as demo isn't horrible I'll buy it. I mean your only other option is wait for mods, or go back to older games. Not like there's a flood of Total War games.

I'm personally very happy. I see some new features and better testing. So huzzah to CA

[buujin]

I'm pleased with this. It seems the developers have addressed most of not all of the main issues that MP fans found wrong with RTW. They look to be taking our concerns seriously.

People are getting too fired up about the unit speed issue its already been perviously stated that the standard unit speeds have been lowered. If you play STW or MTW on small units in multiplayer that will be pretty fast and furious too i bet.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Well, just let you guys know (as it seems it is not obvious) that it is one of the most skilled and experienced MP players doing the game balancing (and wrote this blog). Not me ... (which is a big change compared to rtw)

So have faith, as I have, that MTW2 will be much different than rtw or bi, I hope even better than MTW.

so Simurgh you can preorder your copy, you too CBR and Yuuki

Also tell Marco to visit the RTK forums more often, you can come too

No way I preorder it... I'll wait a couple of months before looking at it.

There were enough argument about what good balance was in MTW among the vets from those days that I would not trust any of them to achieve a balance that would get a large approval
I would trust none of the MTW MP players to balance MTW2 on his own.
Not to mention, I was not aware there were any skilled and experienced players within RTK ...


(well, if you still have contact with them, send my greetings to Aelwyn, Lamorak and Marco... and I remember a few games with Gareth and Goedfrey too; let's hope we'll all meet soon again on a battlefield)

Louis,

[Cheetah]

No way I preorder it... I'll wait a couple of months before looking at it.

Then you will be waiting for too long

Of course, I dont want to force you to preorder anything, it is just a statement that I am lot more optimistic than most of you guys.

There were enough argument about what good balance was in MTW among the vets from those days that I would not trust any of them to achieve a balance that would get a large approval
I would trust none of the MTW MP players to balance MTW2 on his own.

This is fair enough. However, I assume any of those proposed solution to MTW were better than the rtw gameplay.

Not to mention, I was not aware there were any skilled and experienced players within RTK ...

I did not hear this part ...

(well, if you still have contact with them, send my greetings to Aelwyn, Lamorak and Marco... and I remember a few games with Gareth and Goedfrey too; let's hope we'll all meet soon again on a battlefield)

Louis,

Aelwyn is still in RTK though inactive, Lamorak visited a few month ago, Marco, hm ask CBR or Yuuki ... I have not heard much about Garteh and Goedfrey.
I too hope to meet you soon on the battlefield and if you install the NTW2 mod for rtw then we can do it even today (provided you have rtw at all ). It is a very good mod, completely different game from rtw or even from bi, maps are beautiful and functional, terrain is important again ... well I could go on praising this mod for a few more paragraps but you really need to try it. It is a shooting game of course, so somewhat similar to shogun but still different enough. All credit to the Lordz ofc

[CBR]

People are getting too fired up about the unit speed issue its already been perviously stated that the standard unit speeds have been lowered. If you play STW or MTW on small units in multiplayer that will be pretty fast and furious too i bet.

We just dont know how much its lowered. They could do a 5% reduction and claim they have listened to the community but that is not gonna make me run out and buy the game.


CBR