The Future... How to best transform new modders into valuable members?

[Encaitar]

I think I used the term "tutor" a bit too loosely there without thinking about all the connotations
What I meant in fact with it was somebody who a new modder can ask about things when they are stuck (a good example was mentioned by Neon Twilight) or simply don't know how to do something, or just want to discuss an idea before trying it to see if they know a little fact that spoils it all (happened a lot for me when I started, my "tutors" were Adherbal and Dromikaites).

Isn't this what the 'Modding Questions' sub-forum does? Gives you access to multiple tutors!

[Dol Guldur]

Yep, a discussion thread held open by a tutorial creator - we could use the example of the EDB Guide or the Palm Forests on the Battlemap tutorial/discussion as examples - are great ways of learning (often together!). It is something that is usually beneficial to the "tutor" too as he wants to understand the matter, get a certain result, or even just get the material up and polished.

In the final analysis, good modders need the mettle to become so and all the tutors in the world will not cure laziness, vast incomprehensions of workloads, unfounded idealism, lack of commitment, lack of aptitude for modding, etc., in the would-be modder. That "mettle" will be manifested in the person being largely self-taught.

[Bwian]

I have to agree wil Dol Guldur when it comes to making a 'good modder'

I am 100% self taught, with some advice picked up by asking questions on forums. The only resource I have found of use is the basic art of asking a good question so people who know the answers are prompted to reply.

Questions like 'how do I make a model' tend to get abrupt and unhelpful answers. Rightly so! The questioner has clearly not tried to do it, and isn't asking a quiestion worth answering. 'How do I attach my mesh to a bone' or 'how do I make the face look right without using 100's of polygons' are questions that show the asker HAS tried and got stuck. They know what they want to do, and have got to a certain stage and got stopped. That would prompt me to help. A good modder needs to be able to ask good questions to get help. You can't teach it.... but you CAN encourage it!

Now....Apprentices..... been there done it...won't EVER do it again.

In order to properly teach someone to model ( and I have done this more than once ) you have to put in a HUGE amount of time and effort. You have to go through things step by step, write lots of info down, check through their work, and generally try and help them develop not just the basic skills, but to do it in a way that fits with their natural style. There are lots of approaches to modelling, and not all fit with the way peoples minds work. It's very labour intensive.... and most of the 'recognised' modders never needed to go through this.

It also requires a lot of dedication from the pupil. For every peson I taught to model...3 gave up becuase they couldn't make the things they wanted to make before their enthusiasm gave out. They have to take criticism...have to be willing to keep at it .... work with an uncompromising modelling tool ( 3DS Max is NOT for the beginner! ) and be able to master some quite involved techniques before they can produce anything ...let alone a model in game!

If you look, instead, at the text editing side..the tools are simple and easy to master, but there is a lot to play with. Those who master this have done so by tinkering and running the game emdlessly to see what happened. A modder wanting to be any good should be doing this WITHOUT a mentor! Do they think this just 'comes' to a modder in some kin of divine inspiration. Nope. Hard graft. It's not easy...but it can be done and people will help a modder who is trying!

The last thing I would sa would be about a persons ability to judge their own limitations, and the limitaions of the game. This is what seperates those who will succeed form those who will fail. Look no further than those who tried to make WW2 or StarWars mods for RTW. They failed to evaluate the abilties of the game engine, and tried to do things that were doomed from the outset. Working on or for a doomed mod would nver make modders. Only disillusioned ones anyway!

Know what the game CAN do
Know what it CAN'T do
Work out what YOU can do
Work out what you NEED someone to do.

[Dol Guldur]

Superb words of advice, Bwian. I utterly agree. Anything we do to "transform" new modders into valuable members will thus be mainly indirect. They must transform themselves, and we must create an environment where that is most likely to happen.

[Epistolary Richard]

I think the most difficult part of moding is finding the method to work something, many people give up because they know what they want to do, they've read the tutorials but... how can I work this efficiently without messing me up with all those complicated things ? How can I do a map on in an efficient way without losing time ? how can I code without messing all my stuff ? It's a thing other experienced modders can share without revealing their special stuff, just giving clues to beginner of what to think when coding their units so they'll be able to follow a good way to easily and efficiently work a mod.

I know everybody has it's own method but it's still possible to create posts were every experienced modder talks about it's own method and were new modders can find something that basicly suits them better.

I think this is an interesting idea. bdh did something like it with his 'How I make my maps' thread. Some kind of format (perhaps an interview) where a modder specialised in a field talks about their approach - and perhaps links into the tutorials they've found useful - would be of great benefit.

Yep, a discussion thread held open by a tutorial creator - we could use the example of the EDB Guide or the Palm Forests on the Battlemap tutorial/discussion as examples - are great ways of learning (often together!). It is something that is usually beneficial to the "tutor" too as he wants to understand the matter, get a certain result, or even just get the material up and polished.

Comprehensive tutorials which are maintained and added to by their authors are certainly the shining examples of shared knowledge that a community can produce. I think many though would baulk at the ongoing commitment that it required, though possibly this can be offset by setting up a research forum that would support a more collaborative approach.

I am 100% self taught, with some advice picked up by asking questions on forums. The only resource I have found of use is the basic art of asking a good question so people who know the answers are prompted to reply.

Good point - a post outlining the principles of asking good questions would be a boon to the M2TW area.

Know what the game CAN do
Know what it CAN'T do
Work out what YOU can do
Work out what you NEED someone to do.

Good point for a mod development guide.

They must transform themselves, and we must create an environment where that is most likely to happen.

I agree that that is the most effective and appropriate objective for the Org to take in supporting the transmission of modding knowledge.


So, to summarise some of the ideas that have come out of this discussion so far:


- A 'principles of asking the right question' post

- A post outlining the best way to develop - or perhaps just how modders themselves have developed

- Categorisation of tutorials in (and promotion of) the Tutorials database

- A tutorial request/tutorial list thread to highlight 'gaps' where tutorials might be desired

- Establishment of research threads that can then be spun off as individual areas grow.

- A modder's approach to modding X interviews/features

- The concept of 1 to 1 feedback has been thrown back and forth by alpaca, Dol Guldur and Bwian with points raised both on its potential benefits and also the inherent problems, with both finding those people dedicated enough to give feedback and also those dedicated enough to learn new skills and who will be able to handle constructive criticism.
One possibility - similar but with a different spin to what Makanyane suggested - might be to encourage people wanting to learn and desiring feedback to post their work in development and it's open for others (maybe a select group, maybe everyone) to respond with feedback and advice about that specific thing. Such responses, though, would have to be made with care as a hostile or belittling response can kill interest as much as being faced with a huge task with no support. We all started somewhere and we all wondered how to get rid of that damned grey peasant unit card.

But what it would achieve would be to place the emphasis on the learner to produce something based on tutorials and so forth before actually looking to more experienced members to provide guidance. And experienced members, not being in a direct one to one situation, would also have flexibility about their own involvement.

[Neon twilight]

An other points that comes in my mind... some people like to create small mods focused on a small region in a certain ERA, instead of creating a brand new team It could be better to help a mod who covers the same ERA (even supercialy and without the same rule the modder wish ect...) but at least something to share and save time and efforts.

Duno if I'm clear enought here is an exemple : Mr Ghengis whants to create a mod focused on mongol invasions, he's ready to create and extended map himself and to model very historical accurate mongols and oh look a MTW historical accuracy mod is planing to include few mongols in thier peice of work too why do not collaborate a little time since both parts can benefiets from the other instead of modeling the same horse archer.

I understand it's sometimes a pleasure to create units yourself but some moders don't whant to spend time on it... more colaboration would be the key ? A great number of conversion for RTW that barely look the same (no offense I know SPQR and Darthmod are very different for exemple) some didn't finish and go total waste of talent and time...

A good exemple of what I mean I Númenor total war mod who uses LOTR movie editon units so they can concentrate on camp map and other things.

A good idea to direct new modders on thier projects is to create a list of mods in developement and thier historical-period (even for fantasy historical based mods such as Blue Lotus) and thier fantasy settings so they can see it and consider joining team based on the historical period they whant, they would be able to train and get enought experience for thier mod.

Thise make lots of mods possible the only problem is, are the team wishing to share thier work with other does concurency means realy something when you make a mod ?

[Myrddraal]

- A tutorial request/tutorial list thread to highlight 'gaps' where tutorials might be desired

This will be abused, just as the Scriptorium has been (more in the past than currently). People will ask questions in that thread, they will ask for tutorials to be written about stuff that's already covered in a tutorial. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just making the point.

[Bwian]

There is also the question of whose time gets used for what.

May sound obvious, but the time factor is the killer here. If I, for example, took on a 'rookie' to help with Metal Mayhem, it would probably add a couple of months to the development time. Am I going to do this...no.

I could invest lots of time and teach someone how to mod, only to have them jump ship for their own mod, or to join another more 'exclusive' and community high profile mod.

Additionally... if someone wants to make a Mongol Mod ( using the example above ) but who can't model or make a mongol unit....WHAT ARE THEY MAKING THIS MOD FOR! Learn to model....or make something else! This is where reality has to step in. Their is no point in encouraging people to make a mod that they lack the skills to complete properly. It just can't work this way. How many people have started a mod thread with the immortal words

" I don't know how to mod, but I have this great idea. All I need are modellers, skinners, scripters, map makers and texture artists and I can make this"

If I, for example, were to take the person under my wing and teach them the skills they needed, whose mod is it? I could just as easily kick them in to touch, an make the mod without them.

Personally, I believe a good modder makes themself. They can have their skillset increased by good tutorials and advice....but if they can't make good content ( in whatever field they opt to work in ) then they are not modders. They are dreamers.

[Epistolary Richard]

Yes, Bwian, you can certainly believe me that the effective use of time is one of my uppermost concerns. As I said in my last post about prospective feedback:

"But what it would achieve would be to place the emphasis on the learner to produce something based on tutorials and so forth before actually looking to more experienced members to provide guidance. And experienced members, not being in a direct one to one situation, would also have flexibility about their own involvement."

Thus new modders will still have to start down the road themselves, albeit with a good map, but know that further along they will be able to stop off an ask directions.