The Future... How to best transform new modders into valuable members?

[Epistolary Richard]

I think the most difficult part of moding is finding the method to work something, many people give up because they know what they want to do, they've read the tutorials but... how can I work this efficiently without messing me up with all those complicated things ? How can I do a map on in an efficient way without losing time ? how can I code without messing all my stuff ? It's a thing other experienced modders can share without revealing their special stuff, just giving clues to beginner of what to think when coding their units so they'll be able to follow a good way to easily and efficiently work a mod.

I know everybody has it's own method but it's still possible to create posts were every experienced modder talks about it's own method and were new modders can find something that basicly suits them better.

I think this is an interesting idea. bdh did something like it with his 'How I make my maps' thread. Some kind of format (perhaps an interview) where a modder specialised in a field talks about their approach - and perhaps links into the tutorials they've found useful - would be of great benefit.

Yep, a discussion thread held open by a tutorial creator - we could use the example of the EDB Guide or the Palm Forests on the Battlemap tutorial/discussion as examples - are great ways of learning (often together!). It is something that is usually beneficial to the "tutor" too as he wants to understand the matter, get a certain result, or even just get the material up and polished.

Comprehensive tutorials which are maintained and added to by their authors are certainly the shining examples of shared knowledge that a community can produce. I think many though would baulk at the ongoing commitment that it required, though possibly this can be offset by setting up a research forum that would support a more collaborative approach.

I am 100% self taught, with some advice picked up by asking questions on forums. The only resource I have found of use is the basic art of asking a good question so people who know the answers are prompted to reply.

Good point - a post outlining the principles of asking good questions would be a boon to the M2TW area.

Know what the game CAN do
Know what it CAN'T do
Work out what YOU can do
Work out what you NEED someone to do.

Good point for a mod development guide.

They must transform themselves, and we must create an environment where that is most likely to happen.

I agree that that is the most effective and appropriate objective for the Org to take in supporting the transmission of modding knowledge.


So, to summarise some of the ideas that have come out of this discussion so far:


- A 'principles of asking the right question' post

- A post outlining the best way to develop - or perhaps just how modders themselves have developed

- Categorisation of tutorials in (and promotion of) the Tutorials database

- A tutorial request/tutorial list thread to highlight 'gaps' where tutorials might be desired

- Establishment of research threads that can then be spun off as individual areas grow.

- A modder's approach to modding X interviews/features

- The concept of 1 to 1 feedback has been thrown back and forth by alpaca, Dol Guldur and Bwian with points raised both on its potential benefits and also the inherent problems, with both finding those people dedicated enough to give feedback and also those dedicated enough to learn new skills and who will be able to handle constructive criticism.
One possibility - similar but with a different spin to what Makanyane suggested - might be to encourage people wanting to learn and desiring feedback to post their work in development and it's open for others (maybe a select group, maybe everyone) to respond with feedback and advice about that specific thing. Such responses, though, would have to be made with care as a hostile or belittling response can kill interest as much as being faced with a huge task with no support. We all started somewhere and we all wondered how to get rid of that damned grey peasant unit card.

But what it would achieve would be to place the emphasis on the learner to produce something based on tutorials and so forth before actually looking to more experienced members to provide guidance. And experienced members, not being in a direct one to one situation, would also have flexibility about their own involvement.

[Neon twilight]

An other points that comes in my mind... some people like to create small mods focused on a small region in a certain ERA, instead of creating a brand new team It could be better to help a mod who covers the same ERA (even supercialy and without the same rule the modder wish ect...) but at least something to share and save time and efforts.

Duno if I'm clear enought here is an exemple : Mr Ghengis whants to create a mod focused on mongol invasions, he's ready to create and extended map himself and to model very historical accurate mongols and oh look a MTW historical accuracy mod is planing to include few mongols in thier peice of work too why do not collaborate a little time since both parts can benefiets from the other instead of modeling the same horse archer.

I understand it's sometimes a pleasure to create units yourself but some moders don't whant to spend time on it... more colaboration would be the key ? A great number of conversion for RTW that barely look the same (no offense I know SPQR and Darthmod are very different for exemple) some didn't finish and go total waste of talent and time...

A good exemple of what I mean I Númenor total war mod who uses LOTR movie editon units so they can concentrate on camp map and other things.

A good idea to direct new modders on thier projects is to create a list of mods in developement and thier historical-period (even for fantasy historical based mods such as Blue Lotus) and thier fantasy settings so they can see it and consider joining team based on the historical period they whant, they would be able to train and get enought experience for thier mod.

Thise make lots of mods possible the only problem is, are the team wishing to share thier work with other does concurency means realy something when you make a mod ?

[Myrddraal]

- A tutorial request/tutorial list thread to highlight 'gaps' where tutorials might be desired

This will be abused, just as the Scriptorium has been (more in the past than currently). People will ask questions in that thread, they will ask for tutorials to be written about stuff that's already covered in a tutorial. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just making the point.

[Bwian]

There is also the question of whose time gets used for what.

May sound obvious, but the time factor is the killer here. If I, for example, took on a 'rookie' to help with Metal Mayhem, it would probably add a couple of months to the development time. Am I going to do this...no.

I could invest lots of time and teach someone how to mod, only to have them jump ship for their own mod, or to join another more 'exclusive' and community high profile mod.

Additionally... if someone wants to make a Mongol Mod ( using the example above ) but who can't model or make a mongol unit....WHAT ARE THEY MAKING THIS MOD FOR! Learn to model....or make something else! This is where reality has to step in. Their is no point in encouraging people to make a mod that they lack the skills to complete properly. It just can't work this way. How many people have started a mod thread with the immortal words

" I don't know how to mod, but I have this great idea. All I need are modellers, skinners, scripters, map makers and texture artists and I can make this"

If I, for example, were to take the person under my wing and teach them the skills they needed, whose mod is it? I could just as easily kick them in to touch, an make the mod without them.

Personally, I believe a good modder makes themself. They can have their skillset increased by good tutorials and advice....but if they can't make good content ( in whatever field they opt to work in ) then they are not modders. They are dreamers.

[Epistolary Richard]

Yes, Bwian, you can certainly believe me that the effective use of time is one of my uppermost concerns. As I said in my last post about prospective feedback:

"But what it would achieve would be to place the emphasis on the learner to produce something based on tutorials and so forth before actually looking to more experienced members to provide guidance. And experienced members, not being in a direct one to one situation, would also have flexibility about their own involvement."

Thus new modders will still have to start down the road themselves, albeit with a good map, but know that further along they will be able to stop off an ask directions.

[Bwian]

When a modder wants to begin their long and arduous jorney to Modder-dom, the Tuorials section is where they should always start. Most of the basic functions they want to mess with are covered there.

One thing that SHOULD be there, stickied and bold as it can be made, is a list of the tools needed to mad any particular area of the game.

To change models you need:
CAS plugin ( post a link )
3DS Max ( version whatever onwards )

To change skins you need:
Photoshop, GIMP, etc.

To Text edit you need:
Notepad

Then they can go to the Tutorials and look for the basic how-to, and get started. Then, when they get stuck, they can ask questions to get help. This is why I made the point earlier about the un-sung skill of asking a good question. I have seen so many newbies flamed inforums for asking for help in such a way as to appear a complete idiot. They weren't...but the way they asked for help made them appear so.

If they can't get SOMETHING to work from the tutorials, we have to ask oursleves:

1) Are the tutorials clear enough and not full of conflictuing advice or errors
2) Is the modder-to-be so far out of their depth that they have no hope of making it to the surface!

I consider that making it through the Tutorial and actually having the content work is soemthing of a 'rite of passage'. Perhaps we should have a set of standard 'challenges' that sit in the Tutorial section!

So..you want to be a Modder!

Make a cube-man and have it appear in game. Send in a screenshot to prove you did it

Change the colour of the cloak of the Spartan Hoplite to green ...

Make the unit size smaller and post the code you used to do it.

Then give an award 'Registered Modder' to those that make it.

Or this could just be a cheap way for me to finally get myself an award after all my hard work

[Byzantine Emperor]

Someone should write a book:

'The Ultimate guide to Rome Total War Modding'

THAT would be a good read.

BTW, I am all up for the 'apprentice' or 'tutor' idea because I learned everything by tutorials and things do get tricky. I did ask tonnes of questions but few of them got good answers.