The Future... Mod Packs - vital building blocks or waste of time?

[Epistolary Richard]

From this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70145

'Mod packs' & Feature mods - vital building blocks or a waste of time?

Alongside the big guns of the RTW Total Conversion mods, there are ranks and ranks of other mods - mods that do not look to provide a completely difference experience for the player but instead look to alter one aspect of the game or to add a new feature.

These mods are so diverse as to defy a single unifying name - but examples would be mods such as DarthFormations, Modding Legions, Multiple Turns per Year, GAFH (Genetics Aging Family Health), alin's animations, Proper Wonders, naval mod and many other assorted mods that change units, maps, skins, models, stats and everything else they possibly can.

Those mentioned above, obviously, have proved popular enough to be downloaded and used by players and incorporated in larger mods. Many of the others, however, are worked on and uploaded, only to be ignored and forgotten - either because they were poor quality, their limited scope and changes didn't interest anyone or because they weren't compatible with the total conversion mods that the more sophisticated browsers were already playing.

So, the questions arising from this are:

1) Do these mod packs have a value in their own right or are they just learning steps for modders to go onto more ambitious and integrated mods that garner more attention?

2) Do mod packs and feature mods get the recognition they deserve - both from other modders and the large mod-user community?

3) If not, what can we do to change that?

[Dol Guldur]

There are probably two kinds of mod packs - those that enhance vanilla and those that add extra elements. The former would be of interest only to mods based on enhancing the vanilla unless the designer of the mod pack selected certain mods to which adapt the modpack.

I do think they are valuable but I think I view them more as research (albeit in a working form) - Darth Formations is a good example of something we can learn a lot from.

[Ciaran]

I agree, Dol Guldur, on the difference between "mere" enhancement and adding somthing new, however, I think enhancement packs do have a value of their own - I know that for me they do. Though it might make me an exception around here, I happen to like vanilla RTW and BI by and large and I use a couple of enhancements (Sigs animations, ferres´ legions and of course Darths formations), that alter the appearance, but not the gameplay (one could argue about whether Darths formations actually alter the gameplay or not).

[Dol Guldur]

Enhancement packs, in their pure form, probably do not get used by modders who probably last played vanilla in 2004 ;)

But they are great for those who play vanilla. Absolutey.

[Epistolary Richard]

There is a generic aversion to using mods by some online single players (MPs have their own reasons for it) and - for them - often they can get into it by smaller 'expansion' mods which don't aim to deviate much from vanilla.

RTW 'expansion' mods, though, tend to be tweaking the big imperial campaign or swapping or adding a couple of units. I've seen very few 'expansion' mods that have tried to deliver more of the same - i.e. new provincial campaigns using vanilla as a base. Though, as DG says, that's possibly because it seems so many modders moved away from vanilla very quickly.

Aside from their value to low-key mod-users, there's also a value in these small mods of being part of the learning curve for new modders. Often, I think, someone will get into this game because they just want to personalise their game to an extent - and that project itself will start giving them the skills to get more involved in larger projects. That's certainly what happened with me.


'Add on' packs I think can be very valuable. As DG noted, typically there develops certain standard demands for mods to gain any kind of acceptance - in RTW's example slowing down the gameplay, getting rid of faction colours in skins, map extensions are all almost required. This leaves solo modders who are not talented in all areas in a bit of a quandry - being able to source work from modders talented in those areas becomes vital.

The barriers though that emerge here, though, are all about accessibility. Firstly, physically being able to find a mod pack that suits your needs, and secondly getting the necessary permissions to be able to use it.

DG makes a good point about using add on packs for research purposes, but some of the most useful add ons are textures, models, animations and map files which modders would be looking to incorporate whole.

I would suggest some kind of encouragement of the creation of 'adds on' (perhaps instead of the innumerable broad-scope dodo mods that are announced and never released) and also a greater consideration by the pack creators to allow others to use it - either by granting freer licences than is typical or by making provision for their prolonged absence or unexpected departure from the community.

[wlesmana]

Or we can work in reverse: making encouragements for full mods to release aspects of their mods in Add-On formats. I see a lot of modding are done exclusive for full mods even when they're small things that could be used on other mods or personal use.

I think a Request Box of small add-ons could work. For example: someone would like to use RTR's models into vanilla. With RTR's permission, a modder can just make a small Add-On of skin pack for this purpose, to be used by the average player with zero modding skill. This small project can be used by a new modder to learn his DMB.

[Myrddraal]

Hmm.

When I first read this I assumed mod - pack was some kind of template. Like DJ's campaign map template. I think some kind of templates would be a good idea to be honest, but it would take a bit of dedication to make them...

[alpaca]

For me small mod packs are most important in the beginning - that is, both in the beginning of the modding community, and in the first steps of a new modder.
I usually start modding a game because there's a certain gameplay feature I don't like or some balancing I want to change. It helps if you have examples of other people doing that, as you can learn a lot from just looking at their releases (if they are well-made).
However, most more experienced modders will, as has been mentioned, deviate from small packs because they want to make a new game instead of only changing how the existing one works.

I agree with you that it would be nice to have some add-on packs (or modules) which different teams can use, but rather for scripts and coding than for artistic content. In my opinion, the graphical parts of a mod are a large part of what makes it unique, so I wouldn't feel too well about sharing them among a large number of mods, whereas most scripters like their ideas being copied a lot
However, for such a thing to work, we'd need to define a kind of standard under which modules can be developed. I'm not sure if that is at all possible with the Total War games' lack of modding support, but we'll have to wait and see. It is being done in games like Civ4, at least.

[Myrddraal]

rather for scripts and coding than for artistic content.

Absolutely. DJ's map template was a stripped down campaign map, two factions, an extreemly basic descr_strat.txt and a large area of empty land. Not very useful for people who want to edit the existing game, but handy if you're starting out on the total conversion journey...

[Monkwarrior]

In my opinion thepacks are vital as research efforts in some aspects of the game, mainly by the time just after the game is released. Later on, the mod team perhaps have no time to deep in such aspects and those contributions are really valuable.
I like including this kind of packs in the large project, and I didn’t have any problem to obtain permission from the authors.

More difficult is the reversal, to extract a pack from a large project. Sometimes I think that part of ITW might be of general interest, but the restrictions in timeframe or geography would limit its use. In such case it would be more interesting a good tutorial about how to do it, better than an add-on pack.

I must say that I’ve learnt from almost every mod released, big or small. Everyone has something useful for your own project. But it is up to you to adapt it to your own needs.

[Epistolary Richard]

In my opinion, the graphical parts of a mod are a large part of what makes it unique, so I wouldn't feel too well about sharing them among a large number of mods, whereas most scripters like their ideas being copied a lot

It helps us feel loved people just don't go wow at a screenshot of code

However, for such a thing to work, we'd need to define a kind of standard under which modules can be developed. I'm not sure if that is at all possible with the Total War games' lack of modding support, but we'll have to wait and see. It is being done in games like Civ4, at least.

Can you expand a little on what's being done in Civ4 on this topic? I'm just not familiar with it.

[Makanyane]

It helps us feel loved people just don't go wow at a screenshot of code

You might be suprised! Please tell me I'm not the only one that downloads a mod just to look at code! Ok, well its a sad life....

[Monkwarrior]

You might be suprised! Please tell me I'm not the only one that downloads a mod just to look at code! Ok, well its a sad life....

You are not the only one. I've never played a RTW mod, but I think that I've downloaded (and studied ) most of them.

[Dol Guldur]

Makanye & Monkwarrior - I'm with you! I'm waiting for m2tw to look at the code.

[Epistolary Richard]

The truly committed are already cracking out the hex viewers!

[Epistolary Richard]

So, if I can move this conversation on a little, from the quotes below it's clear that we do overall consider there to be value in mod packs - whether as content that can be used by someone looking for small tweaks to vanilla, stuff that small teams or solo modders find it hard to create or as research reference.

I do think they are valuable but I think I view them more as research (albeit in a working form) - Darth Formations is a good example of something we can learn a lot from.

'Add on' packs I think can be very valuable. As DG noted, typically there develops certain standard demands for mods to gain any kind of acceptance - in RTW's example slowing down the gameplay, getting rid of faction colours in skins, map extensions are all almost required. This leaves solo modders who are not talented in all areas in a bit of a quandry - being able to source work from modders talented in those areas becomes vital.

I agree with you that it would be nice to have some add-on packs (or modules) which different teams can use, but rather for scripts and coding than for artistic content. In my opinion, the graphical parts of a mod are a large part of what makes it unique, so I wouldn't feel too well about sharing them among a large number of mods, whereas most scripters like their ideas being copied a lot

In my opinion thepacks are vital as research efforts in some aspects of the game, mainly by the time just after the game is released. Later on, the mod team perhaps have no time to deep in such aspects and those contributions are really valuable.
I like including this kind of packs in the large project, and I didn’t have any problem to obtain permission from the authors.

One of the challenges that mod packs face in terms of public recognition is that people tend to release them at once - then, after a time at the top of the Forge - they drop away. Larger full mods have longer development periods and continually post new content, keeping their threads more prominent.

What I'd like people to consider, just to properly round off the discussion - is whether the mod packs benefit from being part of the main mods in development forum - and what the benefits and detriments might be in having them separate - allowing them to be found easier by those looking for them but perhaps having less drive through traffic.

[DVK901]

As someone who came into the RTW world a little late...I bought the game when it came out, but didn't really get into it until this year....two things come to mind about the smaller mod-packs and mods.

First, I think their valuable because, if nothing else, they 'teach'. They're not so huge as to be overwelming, and small enough so you can grasp what was changed...and often explains why. So your understanding grows as you see what someone did and say.."Oh, I get it". I personally learned a lot from all of them.....some were very 'slanted' to an individuals vision of what something should be like, but the idea is that you see how they slanted it, and where. On the otherhand, if you just downloaded SPQR or TE you find a game that is totally altered...good if you just want to play it, but very vast in it's scope.

My second concern is that all of these neat little mods disappear into the depths of old threads, making it difficult to impossible to find them. On an active day, a posted mini-mod might slip off the first page before you ever see it. I would really like it if there was a thread dedicated to these sorts of small, enhancement, fix this fix that type mods. And wonder if they wouldn't get downloaded and used more often.

[Sinuhet]

Well, if I have grasped it right and it is really a discussion on the topic in the threads name, it is opend for anybody and it is not only some praising in some group isolated from "normal" average users of game forum, then I wolud have several remarks from my own experiences with RTW modding.

All this is more dependent on the character of the community and features of all people involved in this than we all could like to admit yourself. And the resulting patterns of behaviour of individuals and various interests-groups are very similar to the ones known from RL and/or wild nature then.

It is clear and it is nothing new that bigger are swalloving smaller, that rules are giving the bigger and that to become and stay the bigger from some point is starting to be the main purpose and content of the work/effort/liefe processes of the bigger. It has to do something with the entropy and such stuff - it doesnt matter now. What is however relevant to this topic are several concrete limitations already from the start of any creation and modding in each time point for each newbie.

There is always some structure of biggers, the establishment, the ones with contacts to the rulers of infrastructure already. Everyone from newbies must be naturally the smaller. These smallers are relatively plentiful and have eager mutual competition and must be able to survive in relatively short time period in start which is critical. In this time the biggers are selecting the "useful" ones from the newbies and their work. If the newbie will not abtain some help form the bigger, he has not amost a chance to survive with his project.

The ones from newbies who obtain some "second" signal, the positive feedback, whatsoever we will name it, are then in some phase of making "the right" decision. There are several alternatives:

1 - their work is very handful for some concrete purpose of the one concrete bigger - the almost laways the "cooperation" is starting, where the bigger is dictating the rules. It is however, good for both sides, otherwise the newbie wouldnot survive ...
2 - their work is very handful for several biggers and can be used almost universally - then the biggers are mutually competing and the smaller must take some side. Not always is taking the winniing side however, and then it is very bad for his future ..... Otherwise the situation degenerates to the alternative No. 1.
3 - the situtaion is from the start the same as in alternative No.2, but the smaller is trying to be independent and to use the mutual fighting the biggers, not taking one side totally, but be partially involved with each of the biggers interested in his work. THis is very dangerous sitution however for the smaller ... In reality such independnece is causing in many times the joining of the biggers and the smaller is wipe out and his work is then "common" propriety ....

Well, when some biggers are talking that they dont need to swallow the smaller, it is only such talking. In fact almost all creativity is genrated within small projects and the biggers only do "compilations", optimalisations, individualisations and such stuff. It is also important for the end-user, but it is not always in congruence with the interests of the creators-the smaller ones.

Then one could think why several smallers dont create group and create such pseudo-bigger. Well, it happens from time to time, but it is ending on the bad human features people involved in such "community projects" and - what is still more important - under the continuous pressure of the bigger ones, which have a lot of possiblities to create obstacles via their own popularity/mainipulating public opinions, controlling essential infrastructure etc.

What is further very import to grasp is an huge assymetry in relation bigger - "happy" smaller. The bigger can use the work of the several smallers (so called contribution, help etc.), however these several smaller (nor anyone else from community) cannot use the "compilation" of their works (which have some added value for the side of the bigger, to be honest), to develop alone some more coordinated products. They are then dependnet on the bigger as for future of their works and also they ahve not sufficient capacity to be able in such conditions to compete with the bigger by creating his own work from scratch. The bigger is referencing any such attempt for "usage of common platform" (to which they gave similar work) as "violation of copyright", "using my work without permission" etc.

From this laater fact then follows, that the motivation of the smallers is diminshing during time and with increasing number of own "successful" small projects. They end with modding then or are incorporated into the sctructure of one of the biggers (and not necessary tof he one, who cooperated with). However, this is such lif-cycle in community that a lot of newbies are continuosly creating something new and we can start from the begining.

How to stop this "circulus vitiosus"?

There exist several possibilites - to define rules not only good for the biggers, but defining the basic "freedoms" and "rights" for anybody. I have tried to show this way in TWC during my involving in the Curia discussions more than half a year - however the oposition and passivity is too strong..... Another possiblity is to force teh biggers to open their work - they declare that it is open source and then they are acting aginst this declaration. If realtively large group of the smallers will attack several bigger ones using this weapon, ther could be wide destabilisation however, which could damage alot of the previous effort already invested .... Another way, which I prefer now personally is to be smaller with a bit more strict sharing his work, but this is usebale for the few ones who are able to survive on its own. However, if the ToS of each forum would be used, then there is an area for alot of others from smaller ones to defend their work, privacy, copyright - whatsoever we will called it. Ther is only one danger of this approach - that they will go against admistration of the site and they will in some moment of counter-attck from the side of administrators to communicate with respective site owners ....

The key is defend his work, the mark of autorship of each pice of work. In the end this is a way how to let survive not only more start-ups but also wipe out several dead-projects of the strong bigger ones which have proven that they aare not able of competion on the level of released functional work ....

I think that it is relatively large amount of things to think about for the smallers and also the biggers, eventually the administrators of the all popular TW sites, which are declaring that support modding ....

Bye Sinuhet