Demo impressions and discussion (everyone please post here)

[spong]

Aside from wasting valuable gunpowder, you'd also get some smoke and sparking if any powder spilled on the burning hemp match cord. Probably not a good idea, especially if you're trying to conceal the unit's movement. As it is, I read somewhere that early gunners were easy to spot, due to the smell of the match cord.

I do think it's a little silly that the reload timer restarts from scratch at the end of a move. It's going to encourage using these units more as static defense, and not so much for flanking or other tactical movement after the battle starts. Reloading on the run doesn't make much sense, but if enough time for reloading has passed since last shot, and the unit is commanded to move, the guns should be ready to fire as soon as they stop. That reload timer variable is being tracked by the game anyway, so why reset it with a move command? Maybe it's just a bug that won't be in the final game.

Even the static defence option doesn't seem that viable from the demo, they just won't bloody stay in one place even on gaurd mode.

[lars573]

Are you joking? You think its really that hard to take a powder horn and pour powder into a barrel while walking? Hell I bet a parapalegic could do it.

Perfectly serious. It's not the pouring that's the problem. It's the tramping down powder and ball and not getting powder on the match cord. Early fire arms had a tendency to miss fire. Usually when the powder went of pre maturely. You might be able to reload a arquibus prone however.

edit: in MTW handgun/arquebus had 30 second reload.

Which is much better for early firearms.

Our objective was to restore the gameplay of original STW not make a new gameplay.

Why would you want to do that?

[Martok]

Our objective was to restore the gameplay of original STW not make a new gameplay.

Why would you want to do that?

Because the gameplay of the original STW was the most well-balanced out of the entire TW series. None of the other games--not even my beloved Medieval--has come close to matching it.

[lars573]

That's a joke. RTW was the first time they got it half right.

[CBR]

Which is much better for early firearms.

Better in what way? For gameplay reasons or for realism?


CBR

[lars573]

It's the best split. It's ludicrously too fast for handguns though. The earliest firearms shoulded fire faster than 30 seconds.

[CBR]

So would you say 30 secs is better than the 45 secs we see in M2TW? And couldnt they just fire every 15 secs but with half the effect?


CBR

[Prince of the Poodles]

That's a joke. RTW was the first time they got it half right.

Wow...

I thought it was pretty much universally agreed upon that, in terms of gameplay, RTW was the absolute worst of the series by far.

[Ares]

Wow...

I thought it was pretty much universally agreed upon that, in terms of gameplay, RTW was the absolute worst of the series by far.

Oh come on, it wasn't that bad. MTW was superior when it came to the campaign map gameplay; RTW was superior in the battefield gameplay. Now hopefully, M2TW will combine both of those!

[econ21]

Let's not derail this thread with another MTW vs RTW debate. That's been done to death. This thread is for demo impressions only and is long enough without unnecessary padding. There's an Entrance Hall thread on which TW game was the best, so off-topic debate can go there.

[lars573]

So would you say 30 secs is better than the 45 secs we see in M2TW? And couldnt they just fire every 15 secs but with half the effect?


CBR

Because the less than reliable matchlock could under perfect conditions and good luck get 2 rounds a minute (barring missfires, which until flintlocks happen with an amusing requency). But 1 round a minute would be more likely. Since most things in TW combat are accelerated in some way a 30 second reload time for aquebusiers is the best split realism and gameplay.

Wow...

I thought it was pretty much universally agreed upon that, in terms of gameplay, RTW was the absolute worst of the series by far.

In what alterante universe is that true?

[Puzz3D]

Is this the story with guns in M2TW?

1. Reload = 45 seconds.
2. Cannot reload while moving.
3. Any progress towards reloading is lost if the unit moves.
4. Only the first rank can fire.
5. Units cannot be put in less than 2 ranks.
6. If the second rank is fully loaded and moves to the front rank, it can't fire for 22.5 seconds.

From videos I've watched it appears that infantry can traverse noman's land in less than 22.5 seconds. If so, that means an infantry unit could time its advance so that it takes one volley at maximum range and then takes no more volleys before closing with the gun unit for melee.

[Puzz3D]

Since most things in TW combat are accelerated in some way a 30 second reload time for aquebusiers is the best split realism and gameplay.

That's exactly why 21 seconds works best in STW. Since movement speeds have been increased in M2TW, the rate of fire should be even faster than 21 seconds.

[lars573]

Is this the story with guns in M2TW?

1. Reload = 45 seconds.
2. Cannot reload while moving.
3. Any progress towards reloading is lost if the unit moves.
4. Only the first rank can fire.
5. Units cannot be put in less than 2 ranks.
6. If the second rank is fully loaded and moves to the front rank, it can't fire for 22.5 seconds.

From videos I've watched it appears that infantry can traverse noman's land in less than 22.5 seconds. If so, that means an infantry unit could time its advance so that it takes one volley at maximum range and then takes no more volleys before closing with the gun unit for melee.

Welcome to 16th century pike/shot tactics. Fire 1 volley run behind the pikes/halbreds and reload.

[CBR]

Welcome to 16th century pike/shot tactics. Fire 1 volley run behind the pikes/halbreds and reload.

If this game would be anything near 16th century warfare the guns would be using more than 2 ranks for revolving fire. 6 to 10 ranks were used to make a continuous stream of fire. Multiple ranks could form up close to fire one massive volley which was a feature of the STW/MTW engine but we dont know if that is included in M2TW.


CBR

[lars573]

The other school of though there. Which you use would really depend on what you have more of, pikes, or guns.

[ProudNerd]

Oh yes yes! Nearing Medium detail and it runs fine on my 1.7 Celeron. MWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quickening is a very happy man today. Very happy indeed!

lol it runs good on meduem on my 754 sempron @1.4ghz with 1gb ddr400 and a vanilla 6600!

i just got a am2 3500+ 64bit tho with an asus M2V-TVM AM2 All-In-One Motherboard :D Too bad i need to get new ram and everything

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....MEWN%3AIT&rd=1

[CBR]

Is this the story with guns in M2TW?

1. Reload = 45 seconds.
2. Cannot reload while moving.
3. Any progress towards reloading is lost if the unit moves.
4. Only the first rank can fire.
5. Units cannot be put in less than 2 ranks.
6. If the second rank is fully loaded and moves to the front rank, it can't fire for 22.5 seconds.

From videos I've watched it appears that infantry can traverse noman's land in less than 22.5 seconds. If so, that means an infantry unit could time its advance so that it takes one volley at maximum range and then takes no more volleys before closing with the gun unit for melee.

TBH guns are pretty frustrating to test in the demo. They fire off one salvo, then stand still a bit for reloading and then suddenly starts marching to face another target. At least it appears that after a unit moves it manages to remember that second rank had partially reloaded so you only have to wait those 22 secs or whatever it is. Or the game engine simply assumes second rank has half reload time.

Im pretty sure they have a reload of 45 seconds although sometimes it is difficult to get a gun unit to stand still and just fire and reload for more than one cycle. Effectively I had reload rates much slower than 45 secs in a few tests I just did, as they kept on turning and delayed their fire.

If the guns works this way in the final release I really cant see why anyone would even bother with guns. Just buy some more melee units, ctrl+a and charge the enemy, faster and less frustrating.


CBR

[CBR]

The other school of though there. Which you use would really depend on what you have more of, pikes, or guns.

Could you clarify please?


CBR

[Viking]

First impression of demo: it's teh s3x0r

I'll play some more now.

[Puzz3D]

Welcome to 16th century pike/shot tactics. Fire 1 volley run behind the pikes/halbreds and reload.

You can't use that tactic in the game because the guns will go into a reload cycle when you move them out in front. You also can't move a single rank which is the only rank that can shoot.

[LadyAnn]

Wonders if they would fix that?
I remember we asked for having guns pre-loaded: the first volley would not need to wait for loading cycle (soldiers can carry loaded gun even when walking). You only need to stop long enough to reload the guns subsequently.

Anniep

[lars573]

Could you clarify please?


CBR

I heard 16th/17th century warfare described once like this. Catholic infantry was mostly pikes, with the guns supporting them. Either with a volley in front of the pikemen before the other line closed or on the wings shooting into the pikemen. But the main point of decision would be a pike shoving match. Also you'd have sword/buckler men as anti-musket infantry. Protestant infantry was the inverse, used mostly guns with pikes or halbreds as anti cav support on the flanks.

[AussieGiant]

RTW movement speed was 50% faster than STW, and you have 25% more units to control. In addition to that, units routed on contact in RTW. M2TW movement speed is now reduced almost all the way back to STW speeds.

I'm now a very happy man.

Great news Puzz.

Cheers,

[edyzmedieval]

I got the Special Edition demo from Amazon, and I've played it. The battlemap parts look very exciting, but I am keeping my doubts about the AI and it's diplomacy.

[ProudNerd]

Is this the story with guns in M2TW?

1. Reload = 45 seconds.
2. Cannot reload while moving.
3. Any progress towards reloading is lost if the unit moves.
4. Only the first rank can fire.
5. Units cannot be put in less than 2 ranks.
6. If the second rank is fully loaded and moves to the front rank, it can't fire for 22.5 seconds.

From videos I've watched it appears that infantry can traverse noman's land in less than 22.5 seconds. If so, that means an infantry unit could time its advance so that it takes one volley at maximum range and then takes no more volleys before closing with the gun unit for melee.

yes thy reload twice which is a horrid bug and makes them almost useless.

[maestro]

I got the Special Edition demo from Amazon, and I've played it. The battlemap parts look very exciting, but I am keeping my doubts about the AI and it's diplomacy.

You did? The new one? That's out on Tuesday? Screenies?

[ProudNerd]

I found it very enjoyable but I cant comment on the graphics because of my awful specs. there are allot of different tactics in each battle an the sound is absolutely spot on! I have nothing but high hopes for the full game and will defiantly be buying it I just wish i coudl ahve seen the enhanced demo instead..

[ProudNerd]

I should say a bit more. One of the things I liked best was the sprawling battle fields they are just so hugely varied and even the dark sky and much better looking clouds add to the darker grittier feel of the demo, compared to the somewhat brightly coloured Rome. Its also nice to see rolling realistic hills back they really make using longbows fun! The combat animations aren’t really what I was expecting. they are too subtle and hard to see and a lot of them don’t seem to have a feel of force and impact as I was expecting. Still im sure it will be far more polished in the final release.


sorry about another post. I hope ican edit them when im a member. As well as post in hard and software..tech is my life.

[CBR]

I heard 16th/17th century warfare described once like this. Catholic infantry was mostly pikes, with the guns supporting them. Either with a volley in front of the pikemen before the other line closed or on the wings shooting into the pikemen. But the main point of decision would be a pike shoving match. Also you'd have sword/buckler men as anti-musket infantry. Protestant infantry was the inverse, used mostly guns with pikes or halbreds as anti cav support on the flanks.

16th century was a century full of tactical development and for that matter it continued throughout the 17th century too. AFAIK The Dutch, Swedes and English used more guns than the Spanish at one point(late 16th to early 17th century) but the actual use of guns were not that different: revolving ranks, skirmishers, guns operating as independent units or nearby the pikes, all that was more or less the same.

My main complaint is how the guns are implemented and how to use them in M2TW. They seem to require more micromanagment and even then they seem to not work very well with all that moving around and constantly reloading.

That the formation apparently only uses 2 ranks has some serious implications for gameplay too. If we look at STW/MTW then such units were 60 men units on normal and 120 on huge, compared to 200 men max for the large melee units in MTW. So in MTW on huge you had guns of 120 men in 3 ranks and the men using about 1.2 meters each (normal heavy infantry is 1 meter only)

In M2TW we have 240 men max on huge setting (I assume huge is same as RTW) and guns are 192 men and I think guns now use 1.5 meters per men. That means on huge setting guns will be 96 men wide instead of 40 in MTW and the actual width would be around 144 meters wide instead of 48 meters in MTW, so thats 3 times as wide gun units whereas the melee units havent changed much (240 instead of 200 men)

But instead of looking at my dry numbers just try Pavia again and imagine your guns are twice the size and compare them to your pike units.

It will not change much to play with smaller unitsizes either. Its preferable to use melee units in 4+ ranks so gun units will always be wide and awkward to use. At least for archers you can use much deeper formations but as it looks right now the guns have been utterly screwed. And with longbow reload of 15 seconds, missile units in general are pretty bad IMO.


CBR