Diplomacy a la MTW2

[Soulforged]

I've read of the new system of MTW2 for the diplomacy and it looks entertaining. However I'm wondering if there's anyway to implement more information on diplomatic transactions and relations during the gameplay in RTW. Perhaps adding more visible information on the factions characteristics and relations with other faction on the Diplomacy GUI, so we can know what could be the best way to go. Some of this information is already present in other tables around the interface but it would be neat to have it present for better access. Even so, the best option to implent, would be the variety of responses to different propositions so we can know what was the real result of said proposition and make another more suitable in the future. Notice that I'm not talking about voice acting because that could be too much, but only a written form of response beyond the little group of answers that the engine has the custom to show.

Now Diplomacy could be hard coded from all perspective and I could have waisted my time. But I had to try.

So. Is it possible? In anyaway...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Pretty much hardcoded as to what we can show. But from what I've seen diplomacy for MTW2 is just RTW diplomacy with more of the information shown to you (stuff that is behind the scenes in RTW, but not visible to you). If they add more, great, but from what I saw it didn't look different in the way it operates.

[Pelopidas]

...the diplomacy in RTW...my great pain.

A shame that all this is so hard-coded, in fact.

Does anyone here have seen the AI working an intelligent diplomatic scheme ?

Even with one last town besieged and no armies at all, this dumbass won't give up their freedom.
And, if by luck they accept, be certain that they will betray you in the year...

[CountArach]

...the diplomacy in RTW...my great pain.

A shame that all this is so hard-coded, in fact.

Does anyone here have seen the AI working an intelligent diplomatic scheme ?

Even with one last town besieged and no armies at all, this dumbass won't give up their freedom.
And, if by luck they accept, be certain that they will betray you in the year...

Once... just once.

During an Epirote campaign i owned All of Italy, all of Greece and all of Illyria. Soon, the Getai attaked me (Stupid move). I counterattacked. Then the Sweboz attacked my Italian holdings (Stupid move). I counterattacked. THEN the most surprising thing happened... THEY ALLIED! OMG!

Anyway long story short the northern war lasted about 20 years and swung several times, but for every army I lost, I sent 2 to their graves. THEN the Makedonians got involved. They owned about half of Asia Minor. So I spent about 5 years on the back foot loosing Pella once or twice (Then Demetrias to Bribery... grrrr).

Then I needed some extra cash, so I sent two 15 unit armies over to Sicily and conquered the East of it. I succeeded brilliantly, but then the Carthaginians got involved. They had about 5 or 6 stacks around Lilibeo... Needless to say I was kicked off of the island and I lost Rhegiom before I managed to mobilise the local Samnites.

All-in-all a wonderful campaign that I plan on repeating in 0.8.

[Pelopidas]

Yeah, souvenirs souvenirs...

But wasn't it much more a " Te Deum effect " than a true good move ?

Usually all the others factions allied themselves against you, at one moment or another.

Last week the Lagid and Seleucid decided to side together with the little dying kingdom of Pontos against my brave Koinon Hellenon phalanx...tsss...

[Cheexsta]

Offer the AI a million denarii.

Sersiously, they'll accept almost anything...

And hell, you get your money back when paying them to become a protectorate. Win-win! For you, anyway...

[MSB]

The diplomacy in RTW is a little dull. The AI will turn down good offers and likewise accept bad offers.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I have noticed that the AI is willing to accept things based on little tricks... If you are besieging all of their towns and then offer them peace they are much more willing then if you are just sitting on their border. They also agree to things based on the % of your money, not the worth it would be to them: If you have 100,000 and they are constantly at 0, 10,000 should be a good offer, but they won't take it, if you have 1000 and offer all of it, they will be really happy even if they are rich... One of the major factors is length of time you have been at war with them: If you win one big battle, and offer to make them your protectorate, they are more willing to accept then if you have fought them for 20 years and desimated them. One time I had two full stacks besieging a single town with only the faction leader left (no armys anywhere) and I had a diplomat talk to one of their diplomats, offering peace, trade, and two territories back, and they said "Stop the war!? etc"

AI has retarded loop holes.

[Avicenna]

The trick is not to establish bad relations. If you have good relations with ALL the AI, you should be able to get protectorates. I got the Epirotes into Protectorate status without having fought at all as the KH. I've also gotten the Greeks as my protectorate in RTR as the Romans, Thrace as the Brutii in vanilla and some more I can't remember.

[GMT]

I hate protectorates, especially when the AI gets them!

I always try to brake them with pretty good success I might say.

So here's the trick: ally with the protectorate faction and give them some money so they like you. Then place a small stack next to one of the protector faction's settlements. It's only a matter of time before they attack you and that's the end of the protectorate! Well it usually is! lol

[Soulforged]

Pretty much hardcoded as to what we can show. But from what I've seen diplomacy for MTW2 is just RTW diplomacy with more of the information shown to you (stuff that is behind the scenes in RTW, but not visible to you). If they add more, great, but from what I saw it didn't look different in the way it operates.

Yes that's what I've noticed too. That's why I was wondering if the information showed on the GUI could be modified, of course it should be dynamic and related to other factors on the game wich also are variable, but perhaps it could be done. Anyway thanks for you time Teleklos.

NOTE: However the information portrayed is only less accesible not invisible in RTW. They show the economic and military condition of the other faction wich can be seen in other tables in the interface, the relative power is the only invisible information made visible (only in some cases for what I could see) in the new system. The other informatiom made accesible is the relationship between the given faction you're dealing with and others, wich is visible but not accesible during Diplomacy in RTW. There's another factor called reputation wich for what has been gathered from the RTW engine does exists already but is also invisible and plays the most important role for the AI to determine the convenience of pacting with you. Even so the Diplomacy seems to be a mistery still in MTW2, considering that some important information is not revealed, like what decreases or incrases your power and your reputation, good or bad...judge for yourselves...

[Cheexsta]

Having snooped through some M2TW files, diplomacy is looking quite interesting. Firstly, there are files in the data folder relating to them (hopefully signifying moddability!). And there are also a few new options, particularly a demand and offer for Recommunication. But other than that, it looks like it's pretty much the same as RTW. Let's just hope the AI is better at judging and honouring deals...

Edit: for anyone else interested in diplomacy stuff, open the .exe file with a hex editor. Do a text string search for "diplomacy" and you'll eventually stumble across some of the options available. Quite interesting stuff, actually.

[-Praetor-]

Here`s the link to the article.


http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...ml?sid=6154343


Bye.

[Trithemius]

Why they choose to use decriptions of relationships exlcusively is weird to me. Why not use some kind of symbol - like the influence scrolls/command stars/etc - rather than forcing everyone to learn a hierarchy of decription terms (is mixed better than modest, etc).

[MSB]

And something else I just noticed while playing with the RTW diplomacy:

• A diplomat came to me offering me a protectorate (while I had three very rich settlements left.) I agreed and in the same turn he attacked me!
• A diplomat from the Romani came to me asking for a ceasefire. Nothing wrong with that, but on top of that he asked for:
  
  • All the land I had taken from his people
  • 28764 mnami (the cheeky little fool!)

• I went to Epeiros and offered them an alliance, trade rights, map information and 10000 manami (as the KH had got them down to one province that was poor.) They said NO! Stupid people!
• I went to the Getai and offered them my largest and best town (as a gift), but it was also my hardest to defend town. So they said NO and started jabbering on about how I have betrayed people in the past (this was turn 2)!

[Cheexsta]

Why they choose to use decriptions of relationships exlcusively is weird to me. Why not use some kind of symbol - like the influence scrolls/command stars/etc - rather than forcing everyone to learn a hierarchy of decription terms (is mixed better than modest, etc).

I agree, and then one could hold the cursor over the 'stars' (or whatever pips that are being used) and get a textual message indicating what they mean, in the same way as with a characters' command/influence/management/etc. And what kind of term is 'so-so'? I understand what it means, but they could have chosen something a bit less informal.

And interesting that the game considers 5000 florins a 'meagre' wealth...

A diplomat came to me offering me a protectorate (while I had three very rich settlements left.) I agreed and in the same turn he attacked me!

Never accept the AI's offer to become a protectorate. They rarely honour it. Instead, make them one; they honour your authority quite reliably in 1.2 (but still attack you in the 1.5 patch occaisionally).

A diplomat from the Romani came to me asking for a ceasefire. Nothing wrong with that, but on top of that he asked for:
All the land I had taken from his people
28764 mnami (the cheeky little fool!)

When they do this, demand for them to become a protectorate and remove all the land from the offer. They will demand a heap more money (or decline the offer if you don't have enough), but you're guaranteed to get a protectorate out of it. And, as I mentioned before, you'll just get all your money back anyway...

I went to Epeiros and offered them an alliance, trade rights, map information and 10000 manami (as the KH had got them down to one province that was poor.) They said NO! Stupid people!

That does happen. Try offering one thing at a time; trade rights first, then alliance, and finally an exchange of maps. No money needed.

I went to the Getai and offered them my largest and best town, but it was also my hardest to defend town. So they said NO and started jabbering on about how I have betrayed people in the past (this was turn 2)!

Offer it as a gift, rather than a diplomatic deal. In 1.2, they'll almost always accept, even when at war. In 1.5, they often decline but usually relent when you throw a bit of money into the mix (and they get free troops, too).

[MSB]

When they do this, demand for them to become a protectorate and remove all the land from the offer. They will demand a heap more money (or decline the offer if you don't have enough), but you're guaranteed to get a protectorate out of it. And, as I mentioned before, you'll just get all your money back anyway...

Thats good as it actually works and I get my money back. However it is still strange of them to offer you an unreasonable deal that they (should) know that you will not accept. Its like the AI has no sence at all.

That does happen. Try offering one thing at a time; trade rights first, then alliance, and finally an exchange of maps. No money needed.

I tried that and it worked, but the stupid people would not take any money, even when I offered it as a gift as they said "we do not want money from the likes of you"! I only offered them the money so that they could afford to hold out against the all powerful KH (they were the only faction stopping them from getting to me.)

Offer it as a gift, rather than a diplomatic deal. In 1.2, they'll almost always accept, even when at war. In 1.5, they often decline but usually relent when you throw a bit of money into the mix (and they get free troops, too).

I gave them the town as a gift in the first place. However when I put money in the mix they did have the sense to accept. I don't understand why they didn't take the original deal.

My conclusion: In RTW (even if it is modded) the AI has no idea what offers are sensible and what offers are not. The AI is most certainly not a diplomatic genius!

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

That does happen. Try offering one thing at a time; trade rights first, then alliance, and finally an exchange of maps. No money needed.

On the map exchange: I have noticed that if you have equal or more territory than a neutral group they will always accept a map exchange. Though if I am allied with a faction and offer a map exchange, they will replace their map info for money and never give up map info to me. I always have to ask for map info before asking for an alliance.

[MSB]

On the map exchange: I have noticed that if you have equal or more territory than a neutral group they will always accept a map exchange. Though if I am allied with a faction and offer a map exchange, they will replace their map info for money and never give up map info to me. I always have to ask for map info before asking for an alliance.

Hmm, now that is annoying when you are desparate for map info and they refuse to accept!

[-Praetor-]

if you are so desperate for map info, open the console and write "toggle_fow" , and voilá!

[Simmons]

if you are so desperate for map info, open the console and write "toggle_fow" , and voilá!

Some would consider that cheating

[-Praetor-]

I know, but he`s desperate, and that calls for a desperate solution...

[MSB]

I know, but he’s desperate, and that calls for a desperate solution...

Thing is I want a realistic solution and I am most certainly not desperate enough to cheat. If I was an ancient Makedonian king that wanted to know where my dangerous neighbor’s empire had expanded to then I could not just press ` and all my troubles would be gone. I would either have to send a spy over hill and dale to find out or I would have to get map information through a diplomatic deal. I would much rather get what I want through the latter.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I use toggle_fow to check up on far off peoples and to find where wandering AI family members went, but I keep it off most of the time. For one thing, I want to know when an enemy army moves into my territory, but I don't want to know when every army everywhere moves. My point was just that, to me it seems odd how my allies are unwilling to give me map info and my enemy aren't.