Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...

[Oaty]

Hush hush, Next thing Turkey's going to complain about the the millions of Turkey's we execute every November

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

1. No law should ever be passed that makes a particular opinion illegal. It infers that the opposite opinion does not stand up on its own merits. By legislating against holocaust denial you are invalidate the holocaust arguement. The same thing applies here.

2. How are modern Turks responsible for the genocide, or modern Germans responsible for the holocaust? Why are Europeans still vilanised as imperialists and slavers?

The sins of the father do not reflect on the son and all the fathers are dead, or at best senile.

3. What is it that makes Turkey un-European? I was talking to a Turk about this just yesterday. He asked my why Northern Europeans looked back to Greece. It got me thinking, "European" really means "Northern European." How European is Macedonia or Greece?

[Fragony]

Of course Turkey will be joining the EU, let's not pretend it hasn't be decided already.

[King Henry V]

3. What is it that makes Turkey un-European? I was talking to a Turk about this just yesterday. He asked my why Northern Europeans looked back to Greece. It got me thinking, "European" really means "Northern European." How European is Macedonia or Greece?

Well Greece and Macedonia is on this side of the Bosphorus, unlike 95% of Turkey.

[Reenk Roink]

Well Greece and Macedonia is on this side of the Bosphorus, unlike 95% of Turkey.

Then this begs the question. Why is Europe even its own "continent". Why is a division made at the Bosphorus? Europe is an anomaly given the other continents. North and South America are essentially distinct landmasses connected by a very small strip of land. Same with Africa and Asia. Australia and Antartica are on their own. But Europe... Europe shares such a large border with Asia. It's very odd that it got to be its own continent...

[doc_bean]

:sigh: this discussion is pointless.

I'll tell you what, we'll annex Turkey if you make Mexico a state

[Reenk Roink]

I'll tell you what, we'll annex Turkey if you make Mexico a state

I wouldn't mind. It would be a foolproof method for stopping illegal immigration!

Now STFS on the other hand...

[Duke Malcolm]

Then this begs the question. Why is Europe even its own "continent". Why is a division made at the Bosphorus? Europe is an anomaly given the other continents. North and South America are essentially distinct landmasses connected by a very small strip of land. Same with Africa and Asia. Australia and Antartica are on their own. But Europe... Europe shares such a large border with Asia. It's very odd that it got to be its own continent...

Something to do with Tectonic Plates and that sort of thing with which I am only vaguely acquainted. It is why India is a Sub-continent... If it all goes by borders, then the UK ought to be an entirely separate continent...

[Petrus]

I fail to see how this has nothing to do with France or the French government. Armenians may be an ethnic minority in France but the ethnic French majority in parliament, through its abstention in the voting process, enabled the law to pass. Whether the majority actively supported the legislation or not they clearly knew their inaction would allow it to pass, thus ruffling Turkey's feathers. It does not matter one bit whether the French government actively supported the law or not because when it comes to human psychology, silence is often mistaken for acceptance.

What i (try to) mean is that this law is pointless and that it does not reflect a french political objective.

If the promoters of this law thought some persons love to paint their face in green, they would have prepared a law requiring a green paint seller in every street, free green paint for the poor and you would have seen them in tv shows claiming with shining eyes the inalterable right of every human being to have its face painted in green and the necessity to have a law to protect green painted face persons.

This is demagogy and self promotion, this is not a political trend.

[Reenk Roink]

Something to do with Tectonic Plates and that sort of thing with which I am only vaguely acquainted. It is why India is a Sub-continent... If it all goes by borders, then the UK ought to be an entirely separate continent...

Europe and Asia both belong on the Eurasian plate. It's odd that India and Arabia are distinct plates, and yet considered part of Asia, while Europe is considered seperate from Asia though they are on the same plate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tectonic_plates.png

[InsaneApache]

It's summat to do with a bull, a bird called Europa, Zeus and Crete. IIRC.

[King Henry V]

Europe and Asia both belong on the Eurasian plate. It's odd that India and Arabia are distinct plates, and yet considered part of Asia, while Europe is considered seperate from Asia though they are on the same plate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tectonic_plates.png

Europe is a peninsula of the Eurasia, inside of whose boundaires reside a relatively ethinically and culturally homogenous group of people.

[Upxl]

Sorry, but allow me to get back to the topic for one brief sec (or two if you’re a slow reader).
The senate hasn’t even approved the law that parliament voted.
And it’s very unlikely that will happen.

[Brenus]

“what the hell has France got to do with the Armenian holcaust that makes them put it up?”. A lot of French from Armenian origin who will vote next elections. The law has still to be voted by the Senate.

“Legislation like this is a nice way of saying, "You're not welcome here!". It is exactly the point. The so-called Christian Democrats don’t want Turkey in, and because they can’t tell it, they find another way…

“the French have finally done something right”: You mean the French did something right AGAIN…

“Seems most people are against this legislation for the Armenian Genocide, yet don't have near as much of a problem with similar laws for Holocaust denial. Quite interesting, wonder why that is”: Because the Holocaust against the Jews, Gypsies and Slavs is undeniable… The massacre of the Armenians, even if it presents similarity, had still to be proved to be planned (a Turkish Wannsee Conference kind of). Apparently, a lot of deportee or displaced were killed by the local population during the deportation (Kurds, Cherkessk etc), some converted to Islam and some even sold as slaves. That makes Turkey responsible for all that, but to be genocide, it should be a deliberate and planned operation.
I didn’t study in detail this, so I still have no opinion.

“Except that "What's the EU good for?" results in the sole answer of "nothing comes to mind".” 60 years without war. Never happened before. Wonder why?

[Duke Malcolm]

“Except that "What's the EU good for?" results in the sole answer of "nothing comes to mind".” 60 years without war. Never happened before. Wonder why?

The United Nations and the Threat of Nuclear War.

[Brenus]

“The United Nations and the Threat of Nuclear War.” I completely forgot this two… Silly me… Work so well in Israel, Cambodia, Korea, Vietnam, Angola, Eritrea, Sudan, Argentina, euh, I stop here, sorry too long…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Europe is a peninsula of the Eurasia, inside of whose boundaires reside a relatively ethinically and culturally homogenous group of people.

Actually there at least two very distinct cultures in Europe, Latin and Germanic. We're far from homogenous, look at the relations between the different countries in the EU. Actually, the Biospheres is the division which has been employed ever since the times of the ancient Greeks and Herodotus. The Hellespont was considered the division between Europe and Asia because there was no land route.

If you think about it Turkey, Israel, Lebanon and all those Mediterranean countries share a cultural similarity with Greece and Italy, except that it is filtered through a Muslim rather than Christian prism.

[King Henry V]

Notice the word relatively.

[Duke Malcolm]

“The United Nations and the Threat of Nuclear War.” I completely forgot this two… Silly me… Work so well in Israel, Cambodia, Korea, Vietnam, Angola, Eritrea, Sudan, Argentina, euh, I stop here, sorry too long…

Cambodia, Korea, Vietnam, Angola, Eritrea, the Sudan, and Argentina do not have nuclear weapons, do they?

[Keba]

Only France and Britain have them in Europe ... the rest of us have been good, not fighting any major wars, aside from the Yugoslav incident, things have actually been peaceful.

[Fragony]

Only France and Britain have them in Europe ... the rest of us have been good, not fighting any major wars, aside from the Yugoslav incident, things have actually been peaceful.

They are here as well, and I am sure we are not the only ones.

[King Henry V]

“Except that "What's the EU good for?" results in the sole answer of "nothing comes to mind".” 60 years without war. Never happened before. Wonder why?

Probably because Europe had to be united to face the Soviet to the east, and it wwas in no one's interest to declare war with their neighbour.

[Brenus]

“Argentina” VS UK. UK has nuclear bomb. Did it stop Falkland / Malvinas war? Nope. So apparently it is NOT a deterrent.
Vietnam VS USA: US has nuclear bomb…
Israel has nuclear bomb…

Sorry guy, if we had peace in Europe it isn’t because Franc could Nuke Germany or Italy, it is because EU. European nations decided it was better to negotiate than to go to war. If Germans or English want to live in France, no need of invasion, just a good cash…

“Probably because Europe had to be united to face the Soviet to the east, and it was in no one's interest to declare war with their neighbour.” It was roughly the same situation in 1939,and it wasn’t enough to stop Hitler and wars… Again, I think you have to admit EU construction has something to do with peace in Europe…

[Seamus Fermanagh]

“Argentina” VS UK. UK has nuclear bomb. Did it stop Falkland / Malvinas war? Nope. So apparently it is NOT a deterrent.
Vietnam VS USA: US has nuclear bomb…
Israel has nuclear bomb…

Sorry guy, if we had peace in Europe it isn’t because Franc could Nuke Germany or Italy, it is because EU. European nations decided it was better to negotiate than to go to war. If Germans or English want to live in France, no need of invasion, just a good cash…

“Probably because Europe had to be united to face the Soviet to the east, and it was in no one's interest to declare war with their neighbour.” It was roughly the same situation in 1939,and it wasn’t enough to stop Hitler and wars… Again, I think you have to admit EU construction has something to do with peace in Europe…

Nuclear deterrence only works if the potential opponent truly believes that you will use those weapons. For political reasons, neither North Vietnam nor Argentina had any concerns about a nuclear response. Nuclear deterrence has, so far, only been effective at deterring the use of WMD's against a nuclear-armed nation. As more nations enter the nuclear club, however, the game may well change.

I wouldn't underestimate the threat of the CCCP as a unifying element for Europe, Brenus, at least through the 1960's. With the Berlin embargo of 1948, Soviet support for North Korea, the squelching of Hungary, the building of the Berlin Wall, the squelching of Chzechoslovakia, and support for various pro-soviet revolutionary/guerilla movements in the 1960's, the sense of the CCCP as an "enemy" to be faced was very much one of the unifying elements. The foundation of NATO and the re-armament of Germany stand as proof of this.

However, following the conclusion of the Vietnam War, things did seem to change. I suspect that your comments about the EU are far more telling from this period forward than during the 1946-1976 time frame.

[King Henry V]

“Probably because Europe had to be united to face the Soviet to the east, and it was in no one's interest to declare war with their neighbour.” It was roughly the same situation in 1939,and it wasn’t enough to stop Hitler and wars… Again, I think you have to admit EU construction has something to do with peace in Europe…

I don't remember the fact that many were worried about the Soviets being poised to invade the Western Europe during the '30s, or that they were going to nuke them back to the stone age, as was the case during the post war period.

[Brenus]

“However, following the conclusion of the Vietnam War, things did seem to change. I suspect that your comments about the EU are far more telling from this period forward than during the 1946-1976 time frame.”
No, it was just an example as possession a Nuclear weapons as only deterrent against CCCP. The discussion is about EU (useful or un-useful) (“Except that "What's the EU good for?" from Duke Malcom) and my answer “60 years of peace in Europe” then his claim that this peace was due to “The United Nations and the Threat of Nuclear War”. He rapidly abandoned the United Nations to focus on Nuclear Power. So I gave few examples of wars, so he pinpointed that this countries didn’t possessed nuclear weapons. So I pointed out few examples when countries with nuclear weapons were involved in war. I could have added the “borders incidents” between USSR and China (in the 60's) (both having nuclear weapons) as well.
In doing that, he, with quite success, diverted the topic. EU was NOT built against USSR but to prevent a 4th war between France and Germany, because each time this two fight each others the like to share with others… 3 wars during less than 70 years which 2 were world wars.

“I wouldn't underestimate the threat of the CCCP as a unifying element for Europe”. I don’t but the presence of Turkey in NATO is more likely to have played an important role in the face to face with CCCP. EU and NATO are different with country like Franco’s Spain belonging to NATO and not to EU.

“I don't remember the fact that many were worried about the Soviets being poised to invade the Western Europe during the '30s”. Are you kidding? The Red man with a knife between his teeth, the invasion of Poland by the Red Army, all Unions presented as Bolshevik etc… The 30’s were obsessed by USSR: The Free Corps in the Baltic wars (Ernst von Salmon, excellent book), Hitler using this fear to win elections etc.

[Duke Malcolm]

“However, following the conclusion of the Vietnam War, things did seem to change. I suspect that your comments about the EU are far more telling from this period forward than during the 1946-1976 time frame.”
No, it was just an example as possession a Nuclear weapons as only deterrent against CCCP. The discussion is about EU (useful or un-useful) (“Except that "What's the EU good for?" from Duke Malcom) and my answer “60 years of peace in Europe” then his claim that this peace was due to “The United Nations and the Threat of Nuclear War”. He rapidly abandoned the United Nations to focus on Nuclear Power. So I gave few examples of wars, so he pinpointed that this countries didn’t possessed nuclear weapons. So I pointed out few examples when countries with nuclear weapons were involved in war. I could have added the “borders incidents” between USSR and China (in the 60's) (both having nuclear weapons) as well.
In doing that, he, with quite success, diverted the topic. EU was NOT built against USSR but to prevent a 4th war between France and Germany, because each time this two fight each others the like to share with others… 3 wars during less than 70 years which 2 were world wars.

“I wouldn't underestimate the threat of the CCCP as a unifying element for Europe”. I don’t but the presence of Turkey in NATO is more likely to have played an important role in the face to face with CCCP. EU and NATO are different with country like Franco’s Spain belonging to NATO and not to EU.

“I don't remember the fact that many were worried about the Soviets being poised to invade the Western Europe during the '30s”. Are you kidding? The Red man with a knife between his teeth, the invasion of Poland by the Red Army, all Unions presented as Bolshevik etc… The 30’s were obsessed by USSR: The Free Corps in the Baltic wars (Ernst von Salmon, excellent book), Hitler using this fear to win elections etc.

Alright, mentioning the UN was a bit misguided... but NATO has been key in preventing war. A military alliance between the countries formerly at war. Not the EU. The EU merely exploited the peace.

[King Henry V]

“I don't remember the fact that many were worried about the Soviets being poised to invade the Western Europe during the '30s”. Are you kidding? The Red man with a knife between his teeth, the invasion of Poland by the Red Army, all Unions presented as Bolshevik etc… The 30’s were obsessed by USSR: The Free Corps in the Baltic wars (Ernst von Salmon, excellent book), Hitler using this fear to win elections etc.

The threat of the communist ideology yes, but not a Soviet invasion. You can't argue that the inter war years were the same as the post war years. There was a reason why the time was called the Trente Glorieuses, i.e unparalleled economic growth supported mainly by heavy American investment in Western Europe under the Marshall Plan.

[Brenus]

“but NATO has been key in preventing war. A military alliance between the countries formerly at war. Not the EU. The EU merely exploited the peace.”
I partially agree. NATO was the peace keeping against USSR. But the EU was the peace building within Europe. Why do you thing Germany and France/UK didn’t fought each others during the Balkans Crisis, again. Because thank to EU. Germany recognised Croatia Independence against the others opinion, they rebuilt the Croatian army in providing the former East Germany Army material, etc, and we didn’t start a war. Why? Because thanks to EU, we now prefer to speak and exchange diplomatic views than bullets. French President Francois Mitterrand said one day “me alive France will never fight Serbs” had to agree, or at least accept German’s Coup de Force.

“The threat of the communist ideology yes, but not a Soviet invasion. You can't argue that the inter war years were the same as the post war years.” I won't argue. The possibility of a Soviet invasion was certainly more accurate in the 30’s than in the 70’s or 80’s (again invasion of Poland, Spartakist movment in Germany, strong communist parties in France, Italy, Spain).

[Kralizec]

“Argentina” VS UK. UK has nuclear bomb. Did it stop Falkland / Malvinas war? Nope. So apparently it is NOT a deterrent.
Vietnam VS USA: US has nuclear bomb…
Israel has nuclear bomb...

According to Mitterand (RIP), Thatcher threatened him to use atomics against Argentinia- unless France supplied the codes required to sabotage the (French made) Exocet missiles Argentinia was using

Actually there at least two very distinct cultures in Europe, Latin and Germanic. We're far from homogenous, look at the relations between the different countries in the EU. Actually, the Biospheres is the division which has been employed ever since the times of the ancient Greeks and Herodotus. The Hellespont was considered the division between Europe and Asia because there was no land rout

I don't think that France (for example) is more different from England, then it is from Italians or Portugese. I'd say that the north vs the Mediteranean south constitutes a more measurable overall difference.
Also, you forgot the Slavs! There's more of them in Europe then german or romanic speaking people.