Looks like Turkey won't be joining the EU after all...

[Navaros]

Glad to see Turkey getting screwed out of membership seeing as they have already sold their soul for the almighty dollar by agreeing to make adultery not be illegal due to EU's demands. Those who sell their soul deserve to be screwed out of getting what they sold their soul for.

[Strike For The South]

you need a hobby

[Incongruous]

Also, you forgot the Slavs! There's more of them in Europe then german or romanic speaking people.

I somehow doubt that.

Anyway, I find it rather frightening that a govt. might be able to pass a law which takes away freedom of speech and thought. It's rather backwards.

[King Henry V]

“The threat of the communist ideology yes, but not a Soviet invasion. You can't argue that the inter war years were the same as the post war years.” I won't argue. The possibility of a Soviet invasion was certainly more accurate in the 30’s than in the 70’s or 80’s (again invasion of Poland, Spartakist movment in Germany, strong communist parties in France, Italy, Spain).

Not, in the '70s and '80s when the Cold War was already beginning to defrost, but during the '50s and '60s, when the Soviet threat was very strong. As Malcom said, Nato was the key factor in uniting western Europe, and I think the peace of the last 60 years can be attributed to it, not the Eu, as the former was founded in 1947, eight years before the signing of the treaty of Rome in 1957.

[BigTex]

Well Greece and Macedonia is on this side of the Bosphorus, unlike 95% of Turkey.

Then this begs the question. Why is Europe even its own "continent". Why is a division made at the Bosphorus? Europe is an anomaly given the other continents. North and South America are essentially distinct landmasses connected by a very small strip of land. Same with Africa and Asia. Australia and Antartica are on their own. But Europe... Europe shares such a large border with Asia. It's very odd that it got to be its own continent...

Turkey is part of Eurasia. The reason Europe and Asia are seperate even though there is no distinct seperation of them on land and they share the same tectonic plate is that. The europeans were the ones who made the maps. Europe wanted to remain seperate, and special. Nothin wrong there either, history is written by winners. In all actuality the correct name of the continent is Eurasia.

Back to the topic, what in the world is France thinking this time. First with the holocuast next viels and now you no longer have the right to voice your personal opinion on history? This is a very, well its a vertical drop, you do not defend its validity by making it a law to deny it, if anything you make it more popular. Quite honestly you heard very little about the conspiracy theories of how the holocuast didn't happen, but now that everyone seems it neccesary to outlaw the denial of it the theories are becoming more and more popular. You can't defend history by force of law, it will only bite you in the arse.

“Except that "What's the EU good for?" results in the sole answer of "nothing comes to mind".” 60 years without war. Never happened before. Wonder why?

The EU has little to do with the fact that europe hasnt been at war in the past 60 years. Infact it has very little to do with europe, it has to do with the fact that the 2 world superpowers sphere's of influence split europe in half and MAD kept any war from occuring between the 2. With the threat of Europe being turned into a pile of nuclear dust, no war would have been risked.
_____________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.

BigTex

Ridicolus
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb

[Quid]

In Germany and Austria there are laws concerning denial of the Holocaust. I imagine that Israel has the same. So others a a lot further down the slippery slope already.

That some facts are viewed as historially accurate, and that to say others are should already fall foul of Slander / Liabel laws, and no further ones are required.

Ditto in Switzerland. However, the law is restricted insofar that only denials in public (i.e. open denials on radio, newspapers, tv etc.) are punishable.

Quid

[Meneldil]

Unhappilly, that's not the first time such a crappy law is being voted. We had the one about the Holocaust (we can't deny the holocaust), a first one about the armenian genocide, one about 16-17th century slavery, and a few months ago, one about the positive effects of colonization in northern africa (which Chirac veto'ed, seeing how it was going to lead to a civil war).

[Fragony]

one about the positive effects of colonization in northern africa (which Chirac veto'ed, seeing how it was going to lead to a civil war).

Kebab anyone? Such an enrichment

[Ronin]

Glad to see Turkey getting screwed out of membership seeing as they have already sold their soul for the almighty dollar by agreeing to make adultery not be illegal due to EU's demands. Those who sell their soul deserve to be screwed out of getting what they sold their soul for.

ok...you had your fun....back to the padded room now please.

[BigTex]

one about the positive effects of colonization in northern africa (which Chirac veto'ed, seeing how it was going to lead to a civil war).

I've not heard about that law, what exactly does it say. Because last I checked there was very little in the way of positive footnotes in the colonialization of Africa. I guess I'd better be careful if I ever go to europe. They may not take to kindly to ya speakin your mind.
___________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.

BigTex

Ridicolus
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb

[Kralizec]

That law stated that school textbooks should emphasize on the good effects of French colonialism.

The EU has little to do with the fact that europe hasnt been at war in the past 60 years. Infact it has very little to do with europe, it has to do with the fact that the 2 world superpowers sphere's of influence split europe in half and MAD kept any war from occuring between the 2. With the threat of Europe being turned into a pile of nuclear dust, no war would have been risked.

I agree that the EC's hand in this matter is generally overstated (something of the scale of WW1 or WW2 would certainly not have happened), but it did have some influence. Invading your neighbours land simply isn't worth it when economies are so thoroughly intertwined...

[Brenus]

Which was the reason of EU. And again, EU wasn't built to prevent war between USSR and USA / Europe BUT within Europe. To deny the fact that it worked is futile and incorrect. The only reason you can deniy it is because we had no new European civil war the last 60 years. But again look in the past and tell me the last time it's happened...

[ezrider]

1. No law should ever be passed that makes a particular opinion illegal. It infers that the opposite opinion does not stand up on its own merits.

Don't the Turks like locking journalists up for expressing opinions about Turkey.

[Kralizec]

Yeah, hilariously ironic/hypocritical. Turkish parlementarians lament the idea that with this law you could be jailed in France for expressing certain opinions, while in their own country you can be jailed for saying that the Armenian incident possibly was a genocide, or suggesting that Mustafa Ataturk had a funny nose

[Brenus]

New about this: Chirac apologised for this, so the law won’t go further. What happened is some deputies using late hours when nobody else is there and pass a law like that, to make noise, knowing it will be rejected in the other chamber. It cost nothing (except small unpleasant apologise from the President) and win votes.

[IrishArmenian]

Even as an incredibly overzealous Armenian Nationalist, I have to say: what the hell is this? You are curbing free speech, and one thing will lead to another...boom, the government hits you in the head with the censorship stick while you are not looking!
I am aware of the high Armenian population in France (I have many relatives there and big AGBU sect there) but this just hurts us. It hurts the gradual agreement on what happened, maybe a few solemn words, the acceptance of what happened and then everyone moving on. This honestly hurts our cause.
I was also under the assimption that Turkey did not want to be part of the EU, something about being the only Islamic nation there.
EDIT: Forgot about the censorship thing in Turkey too. Many Turkish writers and historians were jailed/executed for that.
The bottom line is: END CENSORSHIP!

[LeftEyeNine]

Even as an incredibly overzealous Armenian Nationalist, I have to say: what the hell is this? You are curbing free speech, and one thing will lead to another...boom, the government hits you in the head with the censorship stick while you are not looking!
I am aware of the high Armenian population in France (I have many relatives there and big AGBU sect there) but this just hurts us. It hurts the gradual agreement on what happened, maybe a few solemn words, the acceptance of what happened and then everyone moving on. This honestly hurts our cause.
I was also under the assimption that Turkey did not want to be part of the EU, something about being the only Islamic nation there.
EDIT: Forgot about the censorship thing in Turkey too. Many Turkish writers and historians were jailed/executed for that.
The bottom line is: END CENSORSHIP!

Shhhh, the annoying Turk is lurking around here, should you know. So that you should put your lies of execution back into your pack where you made up that Armenian Lie from.

P.S. We may have jailed some, yes. I'm not sure about whom they were if any. But execution is an obvious and ill-mannered intentional accusation.

[IrishArmenian]

I'm saying censorship is everywhere. Especially the American FCC. They go way over the top. LEN, I mean not insult to you, I just mean to critisise (spelling?) the French and Turkish censorship, nothing more. You are kind of contorting my post. That was an add on and meant to accompany the French censorship statement. I DO NOT insult the Turkish people every chance I get, yet it seems as if you interpret my posts this way.
Also, I thought that in the 1920's a few critics were killed. If not, all the better. I am not accusing your government or you of anything.

[Upxl]

[IMG]
The EU has little to do with the fact that europe hasnt been at war in the past 60 years. Infact it has very little to do with europe, it has to do with the fact that the 2 world superpowers sphere's of influence split europe in half and MAD kept any war from occuring between the 2. With the threat of Europe being turned into a pile of nuclear dust, no war would have been risked.

I seriously doubt that our years of peace have nothing to do with the EU.

But recently we have indeed been nothing more then a pawn of the more powerful, and this is the precise reason why there should be a unified Europe.
If we want any part at all in future world politics we need to unite and fast!
Even our larger nations Like Britain,France,Germany,... would have little or no authority if they choose to speak with an isolated voice and/or army.

Also fellow Europeans, don’t worry too much about immigration, taxes, or loosing your identity when uniting.
Much of these problems are blown way out of proportion and could ironically enough only improve with an unified Europe.

[Kralizec]

But recently we have indeed been nothing more then a pawn of the more powerful, and this is the precise reason why there should be a unified Europe.
If we want any part at all in future world politics we need to unite and fast!
Even our larger nations Like Britain,France,Germany,... would have little or no authority if they choose to speak with an isolated voice and/or army.

We could do that now. Most European countries don't spend their fair share when it comes to the defense budget. How can we expect more powerful countries like the USA to take us seriously if we can't even organise humanitarian expeditions on our own due to logistical problems?

[Upxl]

LeftEyeNine,

What are your views on Europe, and do you think the people of turkey would want to unite with it?

[Idomeneas]

I find that french law really repulsive. Nobody can legislate opinions. Instead of having forbidding laws the state should set a good historical foundation through education system how the actual facts were. From that point each one is responsible to continue or not his research for the truth. If somebody denies armenian or jewish holocaust by forbidding his right to speak only strengthens his arguement. He should be able to express himself and then being proven wrong by arguements not pain of imprisoment or fines.

I understand why this is happening. To be honest most armenians hate the guts of Turkey and frankly they are not to blame of it. Another characteristic which i have noticed is that after jews Armenians present some of the stronger communities in every country they immigrated. They have so close ties that soem time present that effect that i personally call society in society. So when a direction is given most will follow. And here the vote factor gets in and all make sense.

As for Turkey imo it should stop those mass hysteria tactics of people running amok with various issues and pose threats that basically are empty. Same things with the Pope issue, same with france now and before and italy also (remember when they were throwing pasta in the streets and threatened with embargo of italian products? ). History is history. Being in denial wont change anything especially when the rest of the world already has an opinion on issues. Germany had its share of great historic mistakes (or should i say attrocities?). They faced it and decided to make everything possible to prove to the world they changed. Now, even if during the WWII their presence in Greece was most barbaric, people really welcomes German tourits and we have a great time without thinking the past. Turkey did genocide the Pontics, Armenians and Greeks of Asia Minor. Turkey did exiled the remaining Constantinople greek population and seized their fortuned during '54 and admited it. turkey did never returned any of the greek and cypriot prisoners of war during the '74 events. while many officials admited that a great deal was executed. Turkey do have organisations like ''grey wolves'' that are involved in violent actions and even dare to threat religious leaders as the Patriarch is. If they wanna prove to the world that they are a legitimate state they should take steps to change alot.

The basic problem is that Turkey is like 2 countries in one. The cities along the asia minor coasts are tend to be modernised and in the deapths its basically 3rd world. There is a hybridic goverment model where on the cover there is an elected goverment and in the core a group of generals. There is a cast of people who want to be close to europe and another that have traditional islamic ideals. that is the reason why there cannot be a solid agreement on diplomatic field. Cause for example Greek goverment makes talks with goverment officials while the generals make all the strategic decisions. Its always ending to a mess.

The Greek goverment endorses the Turkish EU case cause it sees a way to restrain for once Turkey in a frame of both accepted rules of conduct. Greece spends a vast amount of money in military funds just because of Turkish stance through the years. Almost daily thre are air space intrusions and engagements thank god without fires. Every once and while we are on brink of heat. Every man loses a period of his life in army service which could be used creativelly just because we have to be ready in case of a war with Turkey. If you want my opinion we are tottaly bored of this situation.

The other european countries on the other hand have many reasons to not accept Turkey. And propably the most important is immigration. Since there is a huge economic gap they expect a horde of people who want a better life to arrive and they are most reluctant to receive them.

Thats the case as i see it from my perspective.

[Zalmoxis]

Also fellow Europeans, don’t worry too much about immigration, taxes, or loosing your identity when uniting.
Much of these problems are blown way out of proportion and could ironically enough only improve with an unified Europe.

That's not it with me, the main reason I don't want a united Europe is the possibility that foreign (European) investors would quickly buy up all businesses, companies, etc. in Romania at cheap prices, preventing Romanians from doing so themselves. In this case, all of the natives would be working for a foreign owned company they could be considered slaves or Romania itself could be controlled by whichever nation the investor belongs to, because such a person would want to advance the interests of his own country.

[AntiochusIII]

because such a person would want to advance the interests of his own country.

Not when you consider how many American corporations are out there in the world, and how much they actually contribute to the government and the country itself.

Businessmen aren't exactly the most nationalistic of groups.

[Idomeneas]

I think that Zalmoxis has a point. Not that much on the nationalistic issues as business are business but on the factor that the economic growing tense for natives will be crippled and most part of population will end up working for others.
This problem can be solved only if all EU countries get to a unified economic level so that there is not cheaper labour and only factors of distance or even expertise will be important.

[Scurvy]

I was under the impression that most governments actively encourage foreign companies to invest in their own industires/econony, a large multi-national can have a knock on effect, providing jobs and a boost to the economy - in Romania the people would benefit from jobs and inproved infrastructure, and the economy would certainly stabalize - Romania would still be controlled by Romanians - yes the business has no care about Romania - but neither does it greatly care about anywhere - business's make profits for themselves.

[LeftEyeNine]

I see Greek and Armenian friends dropped by -as usual-, however, later than I expected. So that I owe you an answer, but not now. I'll answer your question as well Upxl, though most friends here who remember about similar former discussions know how I admire and worship the mighty European Union and the European way of life I crave for.

How pathetic it is that we are obliged to obey the rules of nations we have repelled just 80 years ago from our very own lands. Damn shameful and pathetic. Even gold fish have a bigger capacity of memory than we, the Turks have.

Anyways, this will be tomorrow's issue, good night. (3.30 AM here)

[Idomeneas]

Well that replay says it all and most people here can understand why people that share views as the one you openly state here have long way to go till reach the lands of civilization.
In Greece even if people disagree with you you would be able to make statements as the ones you make in the biggest national tv channel and then walk home without anybody touch a hair from your head. I wonder if a greek could do the same in your country. If i judge from the reactions nice groups like grey wolves which have a tendency to beat people to death, writers that try to escape with their lives and a policy of handdling and poisoning the masses against enemies and dreams of empires in order to not think that they live in absolute poverty, i think not. Propably he would have to be searched in city morgue.

So give all the answers you want. Write even a book with science fiction. Its all the same to the world.
And for the end. EU never asked Turkey to join. Turkey did asked to be let in so how can it impose rules that is the most irrational thing and it is becomming boring too. Alot have to change till then...

[Papewaio]

How pathetic it is that we are obliged to obey the rules of nations we have repelled just 80 years ago from our very own lands. Damn shameful and pathetic. Even gold fish have a bigger capacity of memory than we, the Turks have.

Why not make friends? Australia and Turkey seem to be on speaking terms and they are on opposite sides of the globe. Yet it was Aussies and Kiwis along with Brits landing on the beaches of Turkey and charging up the cliffs to meet Attaturk.

I think the EU has a lot of good points (along with quite a few I disagree with such as the lack of directly elected reps). Why would it be such a bad thing to be under the same rules? Germany and Italy were at war with the rest after the Turkish debacle, yet the countries Germany and Italy were at war with have healed wounds and all their economies are doing fairly well on a world scale.

[IrishArmenian]

I agree with Pape. I mean this in the least critical way possible, LEN, but you have to stop thinking about the past and how to fix the past. One has to focus on healing all wounds, foreign and domestic so that one may unite with the people that feel (not I said feel, I am, as the party you seem to think is your enemy, trying to look from your point of view) offended and acheive great things for all your respective nations. I assume your a history interested person, so I assume you have read about the pre 19th-20th century Islamic/Turkic--Armenian relations were great (Greeks, not so much, but that side is for a Greek to post about). You were looking for merceneries, and would prefer people of the book, and for a little less than 100 years we answered your call. We were treated well too. That is how things should be, minus the war on Europe (in Borat voice) that...not so much.