Ancient Greek Voicemod

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The Greek Voicemod has been stagnant for far too long. I don't really expect it to be created now by getting this started here, but nothing else has ever worked either, so why not try it...

So, what does it require? Could it work for other mods? What needs to be done? Well, the words are already laid out for the battlefield commands. The pronunciation guide is laid out also. What is needed now is someone or some multiple people who have (1) the ability to pronounce the words correctly and in an appropriate accent and with an appropriate level of acting/voicing, (2) the ability to record these commands, which are shouted and sometimes could raise considerable alarm if you are in certain places, and to record them in the proper file format with a good microphone, and (3) someone to organize them properly. Now the first stage rules out someone like me. Though I can pronounce the words, I cant act for crap and since English is my native language, my accent just is not very good at all for this. Native speakers of English probably just won't do as most attempts and submissions so far have shown. Further, a modern Greek pronunciation (and this is sure to ruffle feathers) just isn't good enough. There are vowel and consonant changes that have taken place in the last two thousand years. Still, a Greek who can actually do the ancient pronunciations and who can act them out well and who has a good microphone would be perfect. Finally, getting them into the proper sound file formats and edited to the same volume level and all of that is something I'm entirely uncapable of helping with - plus my internet connection is very very slow, so I can't listen to them all easily. I don't know what format is needed either, or any of the technical stuff on that end. But I'm willing to help with any of the other stuff.

What I have posted here are just the battle commands. This would work with any mod. The unit naming is more complicated though - as EB is different obviously from vanilla and other mods. But I'd be happy to give Greek versions of other units if they were posted, and if there is some good movement here, I'll finish off the Greek list for EB too. If no one is interested I won't worry with it either though. I would also be available to put the strat map commands up too if there is some movement in realizing this.

So, is there any interest in this? EB would certainly share this with any other mod at all if we could just get this done.

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Greek Battle Commands for Rome: Total War Voicemod Project

I have included some variation in the samples of three, often trying to stick to the variation in the original files, but sometimes using a different verb with the same meaning. It is up to you to decide whether or not you would rather use just one and vary the emphasis or whether you would rather use samples with different vocabulary. Also, in many places, λόχοι can be substituted for τάξεις (provided there is no adjective modifying it, since it would be feminine also). Both are generic terms for “units”, and I have not been able to find that either would be preferred.

On the pronuciation of letters in ancient Greek:
The pronunciation of Ancient Greek varied much according to time and place, and differed in many important respects from that of the modern language.
Vowels:
α (short): as a in German hat. There is no true short a in accented syllables in English; the a of idea, aha is a neutral vowel. Also as o in top.
α (long): as a in father.
ε: as e in bonte; somewhat similar is a in bakery.
η: as e in fete, or nearly as e in where.
ι: nearly as the first e in meteor, eternal.
ο: as o in French mot, somewhat like unaccented o in obey or phonetic (as often sounded).
ω: as o in French encore or as in English paw.
υ: was originally sounded as u in prune, but by the fifth century had become like that of French tu. It never had in Attic the sound of u in mute.
Dipthongs:
αι: as in Cairo or high [NOTE]
αυ: as in ou in out or how
ηυ: as ēh’-oo
ει: as in vein or they
ευ: as e (met) + oo (moon)
ωυ: as ōh’-oo
οι: as in soil or boy
ου: as in ourang or fool
υι: as in French huit
Sometimes the letter ι (iota) is written under a vowel, e.g., ῃ, ᾳ, ῳ and when written it is called iota subscript. In classical Greek the iota was written on the line after the vowel and was pronounced as a short iota. Its pronunciation ceased in post-classical Greek.
Consonants:
β = b
γ = g (but if it is found before γ, κ, μ, ξ, χ then it is pronounced as English ng)
δ = d
ζ = sd (as in wisdom)
θ = t-h (not th) as in pot, when emphatically pronounced
κ = k
λ = l
μ = m
ν = n
ξ = x = ks
π = p
ρ = r (rolled or trilled)
σ or ς = s (as in sing, but as z before β, γ, δ, μ)
τ = t
φ = p-h (not ph or f) as in top, when emphatically pronounced
χ = k-h (not ch) as in kit, when emphatically pronounced
ψ = ps
Double consonants:
λλ, μμ, ππ, σς, ττ all should be held approximately twice as long as the single consonant.
γγ though is pronounced as -ng.

On the pronunciation of phi (φ) and theta (θ) (or why we must use aspirated plosives and not fricatives):
From Vox Graeca: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Greek by W. Sidney Allen 1974 Cambridge.
The evidence thus seems conclusive that in 5 c. Attic φ, θ, χ represented plosives (as π, τ, κ) and NOT fricatives (as ς, or as φ, θ, χ in modern Greek). The continuation of the plosive pronunciation into a later period is shown by the fact that Latin renders Greek φ at first as a simple p, later as ph (e.g. Pilipus, Philippus), but never in classical Latin times as f, which would have been appropriate for a fricative pronunciation… However, there is no doubt that, as modern Greek shows, the aspirated plosives did eventually change to fricatives. Evidence is sometimes quoted which would suggest that the beginnings of such a change could be traced to the 2 c. B.C…. With one problematic exception the first clear evidence for a fricative pronunciation comes from the 1 c. A.D. in Pompeian spellings such as Dafne (= Δάφνη)… From the 2 c. A.D. the representation of φ by Latin f becomes common, and Latin grammarians have to give rules when to spell with f and when with ph… It may be that a scholarly pronunciation of φ, θ, χ as plosives continued for some time in the schools… There is even possibly some evidence that the plosive pronunciation continued in the schools up to the time when the Glagolitic alphabet was formed in the 9 c. for the writing of Old Church Slavonic.

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Battle Commands

(I have included some variation in the samples of three, often trying to stick to the variation in the original files, but sometimes using a different verb with the same meaning. It is up to you to decide whether or not you would rather use just one and vary the emphasis or whether you would rather use samples with different vocabulary. Also, in many places, λόχοι can be substituted for τάξεις (provided there is no adjective modifying it, since it would be feminine also). Both are generic terms for “units”, and I have not been able to find that either would be preferred.)

Greek_General_1_Group_Created (when creating group) - 3 samples
Group created 1 – τάξεις συνάγετε!; ἡ τάξις (squadron, body of soldiers; plural used here)
Group created 2 - τάξεις, συντάσσετε! (συντασσω – just a different verb, same meaning)
Greek_General_1_Group_Disbanded (ungrouping a grouped unit) - 3 samples
Group disband 1 – τήν τάξιν καταλύετε! (literally: ”the group (direct object) disband!”)
Group disband 2 – τήν τάξιν διαλύετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Drop (drop equipment like ladders, towers, artillery) - 3 samples
Group drop 1 – τάξεις, μεθίετε τήν παρασκευήν! (”units! let go of the equipment!”)
Group drop 2 – τάξεις, καταβάλλετε τήν παρασκευήν! (different verb for “drop”, though also a present plural imperative)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Cavalry_First_3_Lines - 3 samples
Group Form Cav 3 Lines 1 – ἱππῆς, τάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Group Form Cav 3 Lines 2 – ἱππῆς, τάσσετε τόν τριπλοῠν στίχον!
Group Form Cav 3 Lines 3 – ἱππῆς, παρατάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Cavalry_Screen - 3 samples
Group Form Cav Screen 1 – ἱππῆς, τάσσετε τό πρόβλημα! (”form up the defensive screen!”)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Column - 3 samples
Group Form Column 1 – τάξεις, τάσσετε ὀρθίαι! (literally “form up straight!”)
Group Form Column 2 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε ἐπὶ κέρως! (strangely enough, επι κερως literally means “in a horn” and meant the wings of the army, *but* was used to mean forming in a column, not a line)
Group Form Column 3 – τάξεις, ὄρθιοι λόχοι!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Double_Line - 3 samples
Group Form Double Line 1 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε ἐν διπλοῖς στίχοις! (”form up in double lines”)
Group Form Double Line 2 – τάξεις, τάσσετε τόν διπλοῦν στίχον! (”form the double line”)
Group Form Double Line 3 – τάξεις, τάσσετε τόν διπλοῠν στίχον! (repeated from #2)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Foot_First_3_Lines - 3 samples
Group Form Footmen 3 Lines 1 – πεζοί, τάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Group Form Footmen 3 Lines 2 – πεζοί, τάσσετε τόν τριπλοῠν στίχον!
Group Form Footmen 3 Lines 3 – πεζοί, παρατάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Missile_First_3_lines - 3 samples
Group Form Missile 3 Lines 1 – τοξόται, τάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Group Form Missile 3 Lines 2 – τοξόται, τάσσετε τόν τριπλοῠν στίχον!
Group Form Missile 3 Lines 3 – τοξόται, παρατάσσετε ἐν τρισί στίχοις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Single_Line - 3 samples
Group Form Single Line 1 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε μετωπηδόν!
Group Form Single Line 2 - τάξεις, παρατάσσετε ἐφ’ ἑνός! (Xenophon)
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Sorted_Double_Line - 3 samples
Group Form Double Line 1 – τάξεις, τάσσετε τόν διπλοῠν στίχον ἐπιτηδές. (not easy to say arrange by arrangement!, but this means ”Units, form the double line designedly (adv., or ”advantageously” – the way most useful!)!)
sort
Greek_General_1_Group_Formation_Sorted_Line - 3 samples
Group Form Sorted Line 1 – τάξεις, παρατάσσετε μετωπηδὸν ἐπιτηδές.
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Attack - 3 samples
Group Attack 1 – τάξεις, εἰσβάλλετε!
Group Attack 2 – τάξεις, προσπίπτετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Attack_Fast (mass charge) - 3 samples
Group Attack Fast 1 - τάξεις, ὡς τάχιστα εἰσβάλλετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Halt - 3 samples
Group Halt 1 – τάξεις, ἀποπαύετε! (or παύετε!)
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Missile_Attack - 3 samples
Group Missile Attack 1 – τοξόται, εἰσβάλλετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Missile_Attack_Fast - 3 samples
Group Missle Attack Fast 1 – τοξόται, ταχέως εἰσβάλλετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Move - 3 samples
Group Movement 1 – τάξεις, εξίτε! (Xenophon)
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Move_Fast - 3 samples
Group Movement Fast 1 – τάξεις, εξίτε θοῶς!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Rally - 3 samples
Group Rally 1 – τάξεις, συστρέφετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Order_Retreat - 3 samples
Group Retreat 1 – τάξεις, ὑποστρέφετε! or ἀνάγετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select - 3 samples
Group Select 1 – τάξεις!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Cavalry - 3 samples
Group Select Cavalry 1 - ἱππῆς!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Engines (siege machines) - 3 samples
Group Select Engines 1 – μηχάνηματα!
Group Select Engines 2 – μηχαναῖ!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Infantry - 3 samples
Group Select Infantry 1 – πεζοί!
Greek_General_1_Group_Select_Missiles - 3 samples
Group Select Missles 1 - τοξόται!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Cantabrian_Off (cantabrian circle)
Group Cantabrian Off 1 – ἱπποτοξόται, ἀποπαύετε κυκλούμενων! (Horse-archers, disengage from encircling!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Cantabrian_On (cantabrian circle)
Group Cantabrian On 1 - ἱπποτοξόται, κυκλοῦσθε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Engage_At_Will_Off - 3 samples
Group Engage At Will Off 1 – μένετε κέλευσματα ἐμοῦ!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Engage_At_Will_On - 3 samples
Group Engage At Will On 1 – συμβάλλετε ἑκουσίως!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Fire_At_Will_Off - 3 samples
Group Fire At Will Off 1 – τάξεις, ἀποπαύετε εἰσβαλλόντων!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Fire_At_Will_On - 3 samples
Group Fire At Will On 1 – τάξεις, εἰσβάλλετε ἑκουσίως! (Units, attack at will!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Flaming_Off (projectiles) - 3 samples
Group Flaming Off 1 – τάξεις, κατασβεννύτω τό πῦρ! (Units, put out the fire!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Flaming_On (projectiles) - 3 samples
Group Flaming On 1 – τάξεις, ἅπτετε βέλεα! (Units, light projectiles!)
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Formation_Loose - 3 samples
Group Formation Loose 1 – διά πεταννύτω!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Formation_Tight - 3 samples
Group Formation Tight 1 - συνάγετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Guard_Off - 3 samples
Group Guard Off 1 – οὐ μένετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Guard_On (straighten ranks, hold position) - 3 samples
Group Guard On 1 – μένετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Phalanx_Off - 3 samples
ὑπερέχετε αἰχμᾶς!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Phalanx_On - 3 samples
προύχετε αἰχμᾶς!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Skirmish_Off (hold ground) - 3 samples
μένετε κέλευσματα ἐμοῦ!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Skirmish_On - 3 samples
συμβάλλετε ἑκουσίως!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Testudo_Off (latin: 'ex testudine') - 3 samples
ἀποπαύετε τήν χελώνην!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Testudo_On - 3 samples
τάσσετε τήν χελώνην!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Warcry_Off
κατέχετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Warcry_On
ἀναλαλάζετε!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Wedge_Off - 3 samples
τάσσετε τό ἔμβολον!
Greek_General_1_Group_State_Wedge_On - 3 samples
ἀποπαύετε τοῦ ἔμβολου!

Greek_General_1_Individual_Celebrate (victory, etc) - 3 samples
General Celebration 1 - ἐτιμήσαμεν! (We have conquered!)
Greek_General_1_Individual_Charge - 3 samples
General Charge 1 – προσβάλλετε! (plural) or προσβάλλε! (sing.)
Greek_General_1_Individual_Confirm (yes) - 3 samples
General Confirm 1 – ναί!
General Confirm 2 – πάνυ γε!
General Confirm 3 – μάλιστα γε!
Greek_General_1_Individual_Retreat (5) - 5 samples
General Retreat 1 - ἀνακαλήτω τῇ σάλπιγγι!
or General Retreat 1 - ἀποχώρετε!
Greek_General_1_Individual_Taunt (4 taunts) - 4 samples
General Taunt 1 – βάρβαροι!
General Taunt 2 – βαρβαρικοῖ σκύλακες! (Barbarian dogs!)

[Idomeneas]

Teleklos sorry to tell you but many notes for the pronounciation of the difthongs (how do you say δίφθογγοι in english?) are wrong. Im afraid that if you dont get a greek guy the voicemod will sound like drunk german tourist in Santorini.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hehe. Which dipthongs are wrong in your view Idomeneas? I'm almost at the point I don't care though - a drunk german tourist is better than nothing

[snevets]

LOL... you should just go ahead and have a german tourist do it- hopelessly wrong enough and people will just sigh and move on with their lives. Face it guys, they didn't say it like modern Greek nor exactly like any one pronounciation guide scholars follow- probably the Dorians were more guttural, and the ionians were much smoother with ringing sounds to their vowel contractions (the way that double consanance happpens with γγ to form what chinese pinyin describes as nu- the wringing ing/flat combination). Sounds always change over time, who knows what they sounded like. You want a real idea? Pronouce it correctly for modern greek with a little more tone to it; don't make theories about language and you'll be much closer.

[abou]

Not that I can do it (I am an amateur Latinist - Greek I haven't learned yet), but are you going to have pitch accents? Just curious.

http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Pitch accents? No way. Sure, that's how they pronounced it, but there's no way you could find someone to do that. Anyway, blah blah blah blah blah blah, no one will ever do it anyway in any way.

[Idomeneas]

Well you can have a good sample if you listen to ecclesiastic language. Its basically attic koine. language changes nobody said no, but it doesnt change to a point beyond recognition if its spoken all the time. it just evolves.

As for dipthongs. An example:αι: as in Cairo or high
ai is not ''a-i'' its ''ai'' as in''chemical'' dipthongs are 2 letters pronounced as one sound not 2.

[paullus]

wow, just looking at that, it should would be great to have it. (hopes for someone with the skills and equipment to step up)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well you can have a good sample if you listen to ecclesiastic language. Its basically attic koine. language changes nobody said no, but it doesnt change to a point beyond recognition if its spoken all the time. it just evolves.

As for dipthongs. An example:αι: as in Cairo or high
ai is not ''a-i'' its ''ai'' as in''chemical'' dipthongs are 2 letters pronounced as one sound not 2.

Cairo and high have just one vowel sound that we are talking about: "I" "eye" - which is the pronunciation that you will find in every textbook and grammar on ancient greek for the dipthong "ai" (possibly except those in Greece itself).

[Tellos Athenaios]

Pronouce it correctly for modern greek with a little more tone to it; don't make theories about language and you'll be much closer.

Erm, that would be a teribble violation to all words including an η...
As it happens, this thingy was pronounced quite different from the modern way of doing so. Not like the 'e' in require.

This is one of the few vowels of which it actually is known how to pronounce it correctly. The reason why is very simple. According to Ancient Greek writers sheep make the following sound: βεβη.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Mind the aspirated words! All those words like καθισταμαι, and συνιζεσις are pronounced as if they were two. Καθισταμαι would be καθ and an aspirated ισταμαι.

And you could always call your dogs κυνες too.

[Foot]

This is one of the few vowels of which it actually is known how to pronounce it correctly. The reason why is very simple. According to Ancient Greek writers sheep make the following sound: βεβη.

Wow, that is a great piece of information.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

Sometimes the things you learn at school, do pay off.

[paullus]

there are some other fun animal sounds in ancient greek literature, i just can't remember any of them right now. from aristophanes, i think, its just not coming to me. maybe there is a "ριββιτ" somewhere in the frogs...

and the eta is pronounced like "A" (not "ah" or "I" or "E" but "A")

[sedlacekj]

I wasnt aware that the plosive was used for so long. I am learning Koine Greek now and am in my third year graduate level. Most of the pronunciations that were given in the first post are identical to what I am learning. The only thing is plosive vs. fricatives. The argument at the bottom of the first post is quite convincing to me for the use of the plosive pronunciation. These three letters are often used when the original plosive is at the end of prefix, and the first sound of the root word begins with the rough breathing mark or "h" sound. I never understood why there should be a change in the pronunciation to the fricative. The plosive use makes more sense.

[sedlacekj]

I see that you have two real choices. First have a modern Greek person do the recordings and you satisfy them as to the pronunciation. It won't sound like Attic Greek or Koine Greek (post-Alexandrian), but modern Greek students will be happy. Second have a biblical Greek dothe recordings and you satisfy the need for a more historical pronunciation, but it will not sound right to modern Greek speakers.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It probably depends on where you are at university as to whether or not you will use the plosive or fricative pronunciation in class though. Most places are fine with the fricative one - and quite honestly, if we could just get someone do to them, I would not object at all if they went with the fricative pronunciation. It's the vowels that I do object to folks getting wrong. I've got some professors who use the plosive pronunciation and while I consider it more accurate (and every one of them does too), still in the classroom most folks just go with the fricative.

So, to reiterate, the plosive vs. fricative issue is not one that should stop any of this from moving forward. Even granted that, I am doubtful that people will actually try it, although people like to say that this would be something that they would love to have and it would be a great benefit not just to EB but to other mods as well.

[abou]

I contacted my old Latin professor who recently moved to North Carolina. He still knows some Greek, but more importantly he might know someone in the department who could do it.

Early this semester I bought a book on Attic Greek on a recommendation and on a lark because I had some extra cash. It reminds me of Wheelock and my pronunciation is better, but I don't have the time to go through it yet - I'll be damned though if I can make a pronounceable difference between η and the ει diphthong; the ευ diphthong gives me a hard time as well. Everything seems similar to Latin, but in different and annoying ways which I can't teach to myself.

[Shigawire]

Teleklos is right to bring this up here. I'm sorry I didn't reinitiate the recruitment process myself, seeing as I'm responsible for this.

Teleklos was the one who translated all the commands over a year ago.
Still we haven't gotten any takers willing to do the recording.

Well you can have a good sample if you listen to ecclesiastic language. Its basically attic koine. language changes nobody said no, but it doesnt change to a point beyond recognition if its spoken all the time. it just evolves.

If something evolves over enough time, the myriad of small changes will gradually accumulate into a large change. That's how new species form according to the theory of Evolution.
Who decides the "point beyond recognition"? Nobody says the pronuncation changed beyond recognition, but there are indeed some notable KEY features which are different. Do these key features make a big difference in pronunciation? Perhaps. To the native Greeks, this difference may even be disconcerting. But - look at modern/ecclesiastical Latin vs ancient Latin. These languages have also had the same key changes in its pronunciation. Consonants have moved toward fricative, due to the process of Palatalization, which is why the "G" in italian Giuseppe, and "C" in "Cessare" are fricatives. The diphtongs have also changed in latin. Are we to think these changes can occur with Latin, but NOT with Greek?

There's always this conflict between two views:
1)Scholarly international consensus on ancient greek being very similar to modern greek, but with some important key differences. This view is often misnamed "Erasmian" Greek.

2)Some Modern Greeks who are uncomfortable with some/all of the key differences between modern and ancient greek in the "Erasmian" view.

Many modern Greeks simply think the Scholarly consensus is erroneous and calls it "Erasmian greek." Some even think it's some kind of conspiracy - and consider it an affront to their national pride or some such jingoistic mumbojumbo.

[O'ETAIPOS]

For example Polish language from only XVth century is very hard to understand for modern Poles. And this is 500 years compared to 2500 with Greek.

[Idomeneas]

Telekle αι is not as in eye or cairo cause simply ai=e as in ''error'' tye word ίσταμαι in your way will sound ίσταμα-ι which is totally wrong since its an ancient word that is not used anymore on its own but exists in composite words as thousands other words. Even in european languages ai survived as ''e''. Its very difficult to match pronounciation with englesh cause simply english speakers in most cases they dont pronounce the owels clear. when we say ''a'' its a as you use ''u'' you pronounce something between our α and ε.

For the 2000000000000000000th time i say that the attike koine is survived in a very close form in ecclesiastic language even today cause all the rituals are in ancient greek.

Nobody ever claimed that ancient and modern greek is one and the same. there are many changes but extremely more similarities in grammar at least till 82 were the reformations made disappear many grammar rules.

The scholars that you reffere on what grounds they found the right pronounciation and ignored sources as the ecclesiastic ones? Like it or not its the only chance to really hear ancient greek and not speculations of some ''experts''. Changes there will be but people the way you support things are, you simply cannot speak. You learn grammar as a surgeon learns body parts in anatomy classes but watching and using is totally different. You simply cannot speak or recite with those rules. You know the term εύηχος?

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'll be damned though if I can make a pronounceable difference between η and the ει diphthong; the ευ diphthong gives me a hard time as well. Everything seems similar to Latin, but in different and annoying ways which I can't teach to myself.

Get someone Dutch to do the dipthongs... seriously the ευ is going to give anyone except those who can pronounce the Dutch word 'huis' correctly a very, very hard time. This is because only a few languages actually use this sound, one of them being modern Dutch.

Someone French might be succesfull too: the French 'oeil' sound is a bit similair. But then again, lot's of French people do have a very persisting way of pronouncing words quite wrongly - I've heard some of them speaking English..., it's no wonder there is something called 'Franglais'.

And then we aren't even talking about the accents. Lot's of words seem to have a dipthong, but, if you look more closely and find out that there is no accent circumflexus present, then you've got to pronounce it differently.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Telekle αι is not as in eye or cairo cause simply ai=e as in ''error'' tye word ίσταμαι in your way will sound ίσταμα-ι which is totally wrong since its an ancient word that is not used anymore on its own but exists in composite words as thousands other words. Even in european languages ai survived as ''e''. Its very difficult to match pronounciation with englesh cause simply english speakers in most cases they dont pronounce the owels clear. when we say ''a'' its a as you use ''u'' you pronounce something between our α and ε.

For the 2000000000000000000th time i say that the attike koine is survived in a very close form in ecclesiastic language even today cause all the rituals are in ancient greek.

Nobody ever claimed that ancient and modern greek is one and the same. there are many changes but extremely more similarities in grammar at least till 82 were the reformations made disappear many grammar rules.

The scholars that you reffere on what grounds they found the right pronounciation and ignored sources as the ecclesiastic ones? Like it or not its the only chance to really hear ancient greek and not speculations of some ''experts''. Changes there will be but people the way you support things are, you simply cannot speak. You learn grammar as a surgeon learns body parts in anatomy classes but watching and using is totally different. You simply cannot speak or recite with those rules. You know the term εύηχος?

First of all, you are right, and nobody can both deny that and be serious about it, whenever you say that there are lot's of similairities between Ancient Greek, and the Modern version.

But.

Especially when it comes to dipthongs, lot's and lot's of development has taken place. Most of them are nowhere near similair as the ancient ones, even during the ancient times there seems to have been some confusion on the topic of how to pronounce the sounds, that they called ancient, too. Read Homer's Illiad, for example, mind the various lines where metri causa has taken it's toll, and you'll have to admit that those sounds changed frequently and drastically.

It's not just the vowels that give modern readers of Ancient Greek a hard time, it's also some of the consonant's too, most notably the muta. For example: it seems that the β was originally the same as b, then evolved to w, and then changed back to b. How do we know? Well there is this one verb, βουλομαι (I want), where this took place - more ancient forms of this have instead of the beta a wau. The modern Dutch 'willen' is based on this particular verb, and here we can see development in the consonant too.

That's just one consonant thing: but there is also the sigma. Lot's of development has gone into that particular sounds, so much in fact that today we speak of different sigma's based on what has happened to the various words where this consonant was/is present. An example is the ancient word σαμα: the sigma dropped out and a spiritus asper appeared, so we're left with ΄αμα (you'll have seen that I can't find an aspirated alpha, so I put the spiritus in front instead), in classical Greek.

Then there is something else too: Plato, Euripides, Aristoteles, Arianos, and such writers have left us not only with lot's of source for historical research, but especially with writers who used a special beat we're also left with a guide as how to pronounce the work. Note that Plato, for example, uses the Classical Greek.

And at the last, I have to agree with you that native English aren't the most suitable of people to do the job of pronouncing ancient Greek. They seem to have a bit of a difficulty with the rho and various vowels. Still, they are probably the best to do the aspiration.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Idomeneas - you have nothing helpful to add here (or anywhere else on our boards as far as I can tell). You can sit there all you want and say that "ai" is "e" as in "error", but when every greek book and grammar I could possibly get my hands on tells me and everyone else it is like "high" or "cairo", then you aren't going to convince a single one of us. You might as well tell us the Pyramids were built by aliens, or all of human history just spans 6,000 years, or an elaborate masonic cabal controls all of the course of modern political events, but no one is going to believe you. With your rants against us on twc, I think all parties would best be served if you just left us alone.

[Shigawire]

Perhaps all the internationally acknowledged scholarly work and books on the ancient Greek language is invented by Scholars? Perhaps it's a part of a vast conspiracy to diminish the pride of modern day Greek nationalists who wish to maintain as tight a connection to their past?

Pointing out a few differences between the ancient and modern language may just be the evil scholars' way to "dent the armor" of nationalistic pride..

Well, you never know...

*sarcasm off*

Every nationalistic group of people likes to pick out their best or most famous ancestors to feel better about themselves. For Scandinavians, the vikings come to mind - though we really have nothing to be proud of some pirates.. for the Italians the Romans come to mind.. etc.. Even though most of these groups speak entirely different languages today, and have long since diluted their blood with other peoples, since those "glory days."

This is often the kind of irrationali jingoism which leads to corruption of thought-processes, at which point the mind submits to wishful thinking - which can lead to revisionism of history. This is why some small groups of "black supremacy" groups are claiming Hannibal to be black, even though he was not negroid, because they NEED a military hero.. other than Zulus. Most of THEIR heroes are heroes of social change though. Malcolm X, Martin Luther King.. I think those are the best kind of heroes. So I think they should be proud, and let the foolish macho-worship belong to us white morons.

[Idomeneas]

First of all, you are right, and nobody can both deny that and be serious about it, whenever you say that there are lot's of similairities between Ancient Greek, and the Modern version.

But.

Especially when it comes to dipthongs, lot's and lot's of development has taken place. Most of them are nowhere near similair as the ancient ones, even during the ancient times there seems to have been some confusion on the topic of how to pronounce the sounds, that they called ancient, too. Read Homer's Illiad, for example, mind the various lines where metri causa has taken it's toll, and you'll have to admit that those sounds changed frequently and drastically.

It's not just the vowels that give modern readers of Ancient Greek a hard time, it's also some of the consonant's too, most notably the muta. For example: it seems that the β was originally the same as b, then evolved to w, and then changed back to b. How do we know? Well there is this one verb, βουλομαι (I want), where this took place - more ancient forms of this have instead of the beta a wau. The modern Dutch 'willen' is based on this particular verb, and here we can see development in the consonant too.

That's just one consonant thing: but there is also the sigma. Lot's of development has gone into that particular sounds, so much in fact that today we speak of different sigma's based on what has happened to the various words where this consonant was/is present. An example is the ancient word σαμα: the sigma dropped out and a spiritus asper appeared, so we're left with ΄αμα (you'll have seen that I can't find an aspirated alpha, so I put the spiritus in front instead), in classical Greek.

Then there is something else too: Plato, Euripides, Aristoteles, Arianos, and such writers have left us not only with lot's of source for historical research, but especially with writers who used a special beat we're also left with a guide as how to pronounce the work. Note that Plato, for example, uses the Classical Greek.

And at the last, I have to agree with you that native English aren't the most suitable of people to do the job of pronouncing ancient Greek. They seem to have a bit of a difficulty with the rho and various vowels. Still, they are probably the best to do the aspiration.

Due to extreme localism there are many dialects or at least some differences in pronounciation even in ancient greece. An example is the doric and attic or the beotian. Many words were replaced even since ancient era. For example the homeric αυδή (voice) became φωνή since ancient times. We still use the same word and you all recognise it in words as τηλέφωνο and many more. But still we say άναυδος (anavthos)=speachless. So αυδη survived its substitution and made its way to us since Homer time in a composite form. I can continue with another example. Πόρπαξ the shield arm grip. Τoday we dont have shields but we say πόρπη the belt buckle. The ancient ύδωρ is sunstituted by νερό but we still say υδραγωγείο, άνυδρος, υδραυλικό. The examples can take days and a forum of their own

So the words never stopped to ne used and heard even in composite form. If you dont mind slang that every country has, if you wanna write an easy or a formal letter you use an extremely large amount of ancient words in pure or composite form.

there seems to be a strange thing going in academic communities. Some people decided which was the way a language that they are not related sounded, without taking account that it is a living language and there are many samples to collect and study. The issue started cause by the time scholars rediscovered greek art and philosophy and science, greece was under occupation. So the amount of greek scholars intervention was restricted. The various schools and opinions were formed and when greeks were done with the major historic turbulances they simply entered the dance late. now it sound like blasphemy if you question an academic approach that was the base for many and famous institutions. If you ask someone why you say that? he will say ''the great professor of x univercity said it'' and who told him? ''another great proffesor'' and so the story goes until we get to the original bright mind that just made that up.

For the end Telekle i dont have a problem to leave your precious board alone. And if people here want to hear somebody that speaks greek like chewing papers and not a native speaker with a good grasp of his language be my guest. just dont wonder what is wrong. Your last post proves that you cannot argue. While you use petty and lame excuses of an argument im proving to you that you have no relation with my language. EB is full of mistakes even in ancient as single/plural number and grammar rules taht even 12 years old kids know.

@shigawire this all must sound greek to you yes? You are accusing me for nationalism and conspiracy theories? On what grounds? I just tried to hint you so 20000000 milion people worldwide wont laugh at you

[khelvan]

This debate is turning political, as it always does, when we discuss Ancient Greek. As I have said before, I consider any small group of people who are fiercely aggressive even in the face of overwhelming bodies of research to be trolls. If we were discussing evolution, I would consider aggressive Young Earth Creationists and their propaganda trollish. If we were discussing the Holocaust I would consider aggressive Holocaust deniers as trolls. So it is with Ancient Greek and our own small band of aggressors. I feel that political propaganda is trollish, and I will start deleting posts I believe to be trollish.

We accept the work of the world's scholars because we believe in doing research to draw conclusions, rather than searching for evidence to fit our preconceptions. We think that historical research and works of history have value, and bring us far closer to the truth than assuming that no historical research has value because we can't actually see or hear those we are researching. We believe the tools we have to work with may not be perfect, but through careful study they bring us infinitely closer to realism and historical accuracy than assuming that things are close to the present because we have no video tapes.

So in short, I will be deleting posts that lead toward the political flame fests that always happen when this propaganda gets going. I do this because this is not a debate, but rather a consensus and the presentation of politically motivated material by a small group of deniers.

I'll leave with the words of a very smart man, in describing deniers of a particular area of historical research for which we have much evidence, and allow you to find parallels, if they exist:

1. They concentrate on their opponents' weak points, while rarely saying anything definitive about their own position.

2. They exploit errors made by scholars who are making opposing arguments, implying that because a few of their opponents' conclusions were wrong, all of their opponents' conclusions must be wrong.

3. They use quotations, usually taken out of context, from prominent mainstream figures to buttress their own positions.

4. They mistake genuine, honest debates between scholars about certain points within a field for a dispute about the existence of the entire field.

5. They focus on what is not known and ignore what is known, emphasize data that fit and discount data that do not fit.

[sedlacekj]

Another issue not yet addressed on this thread, which is more important than the "correct" or "cleansed" pronunciation is that the person who pronounces the words needs to be able to say them "with some balls." No one who is not used to ordering men around in military situations is going to have the right force behind the words.

Another issue that is also worthy of note, is that by 200's B.C., very few of the soldiers were native Greek speakers. Most of them would be Judaioi, bactrioi, aegyptoi, or various other barbs "civilized" into the ranks. Now having a Semitic sounding greek in Judaioi units and Attic Greek in Athenian Hetaroi units, and so forth is an astronomical project.

I suggest using someone who can imitate any of the textbook pronounciations and sound off like they got a pair.

I have been an NCO in the infantry, and I know what sounding off is supposed to sound like. I have studied Koine Greek, which is the Greek being spoken everywhere but Greece. I have also studied German, Spanish, and Hebrew, and Korean. I say this indicating that although I am a native English speaker, I do have experience pronouncing a variety of sounds not native to me.

If accepted, I would like to help on this project, but I need some guidance from the project coordinator as to which pronunciation to use, and how to do the recording. I have no recording devices myself. What do I use?

[Chester]

We accept the work of the world's scholars because we believe in doing research to draw conclusions, rather than searching for evidence to fit our preconceptions. We think that historical research and works of history have value, and bring us far closer to the truth than assuming that no historical research has value because we can't actually see or hear those we are researching. We believe the tools we have to work with may not be perfect, but through careful study they bring us infinitely closer to realism and historical accuracy than assuming that things are close to the present because we have no video tapes.

Unless you're a scholar, or unless you site their work, you can't debate?

Essentially, this will not allow anybody to make an arguement unless it's got piles of research and backing while being devoid of any political undertones. Nobody on these forums is coming into these debates with little more than what they deem is 'probably true' based on their experience.

So far it seems nobody is 'making stuff up our of thin air'. They probably have a reference, some scholar or journalist or book. Isn't it the very nature of debate to expose falsehood?

I say let them argue and the best man with the best sources will win. I'm confident that some one will expose a poor arguement here. And if the 'troller' keeps pressing harder, only to dig himself a deeper hole, then whatever. It's up to the read to decide who wins. Most people who make lame claims and site poor sources on forums usually stop posting after being called out by another person who knows more on the topic.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Ok.

1. The chief Greek Grammar in english is one by Herbert Weir Smyth, published by Harvard University Press in 1920. "Smyth's is by far the most complete reference grammar in ancient Greek to appear in English." It gives the ai dipthong sounded as in Cairo.
2. The best known book in English on the pronunciation of ancient greek is W. Sidney Allen's Vox Graeca, published by Cambridge University Press in 1968. He states "ai correspondst to a dipthong [ai] (as in English "high") in related languages (e.g., greek "aithw": Lat. aedes), and this value is confirmed up to Roman times by transcriptions into and from Latin (e.g., palaestra - in latin, Kaisar - in Greek)."

additionally Allen says: "At a later period a monophthongal development took place, giving a quality (can't type this symbol - like an e with stuff hanging all over it ); this is first revealed by spellings with epsilon from about 125 AD, and especially after 150. The use of epsilon rather than eta in this value is no doubt due to the fact that the value of eta had already close to (that symbol again), which soon after closed further to (an "i" with a long mark over it); so that the new (that e symbol again) vowel could then be approximately represented only by spelling with the short vowel-symbol epsilon (e.g., kite = keitai). The monophthongal pronunciation is also confirmed for this period by a specific statement of Sextus Empiricus that the sound of ai, like that of ei, was 'simple and uniform'."