Defense specialist general get command rating reduced when attacking and vice versa

[Digital]

Hi there,

I noticed that if you are a defense specialist, that is good defender, field defense specialist, etc, you will get a command boost when defending, but a command reduction when attacking. For example, if you are a 5 star general with the field defense specialist virtue, +3 command stars, you will be a 8 star general when defending but only a (5-3)2 star general when attacking. The same thing happens if you are a good attacker. Thus, medieval total war says that if you are a good defender, you won't be as good an attacker and vice versa.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I do not think this is the case. When you have a general with let's say two stars, if he gets the skilled defender, on the strategic map he will appear as a three star general, simply because by sitting in a province he is considered defending it (in case anyone invades or rebellion brakes out). There is no need for an actual defensive battle to take place for him to get his bonus and he will always have three stars when sitting still. Now, if you move him to invade another province, he will appear as a two stars general, simply because he does not get his bonus when attacking. Therefore, you may be misled into thinking he gets a penalty when attacking, but in reality he only loses his defending bonus. Does it make sense?

[r johnson]

Does it make sense?

Absoluty, in the eyes of the great all mighty he's not seen as a proven attacker yet. But i think i did see a general (not my own) who had good attacker and good defence in his vices and virtues, is this possible or did i just make it up?

[Kavhan Isbul]

It is possible, especially if you used this general in many battles, which you played yourself and won with a large ratio in your favour. Theoretically, you can have one and the same commander who is a skilled attacker, skilled defender, skilled last stand, skilled assaulter (this one is hard to get, but some are born with it) and skilled assault defender. I even once had one who was both a skilled defender and a weak defender, if you can believe that. If you can do it, it should be possible for the AI too.

[Digital]

I do not think this is the case. When you have a general with let's say two stars, if he gets the skilled defender, on the strategic map he will appear as a three star general, simply because by sitting in a province he is considered defending it (in case anyone invades or rebellion brakes out). There is no need for an actual defensive battle to take place for him to get his bonus and he will always have three stars when sitting still. Now, if you move him to invade another province, he will appear as a two stars general, simply because he does not get his bonus when attacking. Therefore, you may be misled into thinking he gets a penalty when attacking, but in reality he only loses his defending bonus. Does it make sense?

For your case, on the strategic map, he will appear as a 2 star general.When defending or when there is a rebellion in the province,he will get three stars. When he is attacking, he will only be a 1 star general.

[Digital]

Absoluty, in the eyes of the great all mighty he's not seen as a proven attacker yet. But i think i did see a general (not my own) who had good attacker and good defence in his vices and virtues, is this possible or did i just make it up?

I had a 6 stars general having the field defense specialist(+3 command stars while defending) together with the specialist attacker(+3 command stars while attacking). When attacking or defending, the virtues cancel each other out and my general ends up as a 6 stars general in both cases.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Are you sure? Every time I get a general with any defensive bonus, this is immediately reflected in the stars he appears to have on the strategic map. Here are two screenshots, which were not made for this purpose, but help illustrate what I have in mind. I was playing a MedMod campaign with the Pechenegs and on the first turn (A.D. 1087) I invaded Bulgaria. Here is the map in 1088, after the province was conquered:



If you look at the bottom right corner, in what is Constantinople (and is called Thrace in this particular mod), you will see the Byzantine Emperor. He has 7 stars (on the screenie you cannot see a star at the very bottom next to his shield, but he has 7, not 6). I remember him having a +2 bonus for being an expert defender (he starts with this quality). Without the bonus he would be a 5 star general, which is what he is in the next screenshot, when two years later he attacked me in Bulgaria in an attempt to reclaim the province.



Now he had 5 stars only, simply because he is attacking, not defending. However, if I were to attack in Constantinople, he would have all 7 stars. I will try to dig up a saved game and get a screenshot, but if you are thinking that if he has 7 stars in the strategic map, he should get 9 if he is attacked, I think it simply will not happen, for the seven stars already take into account the defensive bonus. A general is considered to be defending by default, and he will not get his bonus only if he is attacking, assaulting or being assaulted in a castle (I think for the purpose of the game assault defending is considered different than just defending).

The same apples for a general with an attacking bonus - after he gets the bonus he will keep the same number of stars he had before, and if his province is attacked, if he were a 4 star general before, he will be a 4 star general during the battle. He only gets his attacking bonus if he invades somewhere. He will not have the bonus if he assaults a castle, though.

Anyway, I will try to get another screenshot with the same Byzantine emperor I am using as an example to show exactly how the bonuses work, but I assure you - there is no defensive penalty for generals with attacker virtue and vice versa.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I had a 6 stars general having the field defense specialist(+3 command stars while defending) together with the specialist attacker(+3 command stars while attacking). When attacking or defending, the virtues cancel each other out and my general ends up as a 6 stars general in both cases.

Digital, I am afraid you are mistaking a 3 star general with a 6 star one. When your general simply sits in one of your provinces, he has 6 stars on the campaign map, because he is a 3 star general plus the 3 star bonus, or a 6 star general altogether. When he attacks, he is a 3 star general with a +3 attacking bonus, thus 6 again.
Now instead of looking at the Byzantine factions leader, take a look at the screenshots of the Pecheneg faction leade. He starts the game by being a skilled attacker (+1 command bonus when attacking) by default. He is a 4 star general too. You can see him on tha strategic map, sitting in Bulgaria, with 4 stars, which is the same number of stars when he defends two years later (he did not get any stars in the meantime). Now here is a screenshot of him attacking in Bulgaria on the first turn, and he has 5 stars because of his attacking bonus:



So, as you can see, he gets his bonus for attacker when he attacks, and gets no penalty at all when he defends.

[Digital]

Hmmmm, I remember that in one game I had a three stars general without any virtue. Then he was attacked by a large force and wins. He gets the skilled defender bonus, but he remains as a 3 stars general. The next turn, I invaded the province which attacked me, he becomes a 2 stars general as he is now attacking. The defenders retreated to the castle. Next turn, the enemy sallies out of the castle and a huge force from outside the province joined the battle, he becomes a 4 stars general, as he is now defending.

[Deus ret.]

The next turn, I invaded the province which attacked me, he becomes a 2 stars general as he is now attacking.

are you absolutely sure? if yes, this sounds like some kind of small absurd bug, of which there is still quite a number in MTW, and not everyone encounters the same ones. otherwise, it's like Kavhan Isbul laid out above....are you playing VI with the 2.01 patch? just curious, I never witnessed any such thing in my games.

[Digital]

I am playing MTW VI 2.01. Hmmmm, did my memory fail me? Unfortunately, I do not have any saved game with that to substantiate my claim. I will continue playing and hope to get a similar situation. I also remember I have a general, five stars without virtues, getting the skilled last stand virtue after winning a battle where he was greatly outnumbered. When he attacks next turn, he becomes 4 stars!? On the campaign map, lets say I have a 3 stars general with skilled defender virtue, will he appear as a 3 stars or 4 stars general when he is just sitting in his province? I always thought he should appear as a 3 stars general as he is neither attacking or defending?

[gaijinalways]

Interesting, now I see why some people farm for certain vices or characteristics (like the 'refarming' in one province with a governor or king). I didn't think about it so much that the actual stars are affected, I thought there was a different kind of calculation done on the general's influence in a battle. Sounds like you could have speciality generals in the same troops, pull one in or out to defend, and use another to attack while the other goes on R&R!

[Kavhan Isbul]

Digital, when your general is sitting he appears not with his base command, but with his base command plus whatever defensive bonuses he has. To continue my screenshot examples. Here is Alexios after attacking me and losing the battle, which ultimately cost him one command point (without any vices though, just a point - you lose them the same way as you gain them, adn as it was his first battle he happened to lose more battles than he won):





As you can see, no other vices and virtues other than the expert defender. The next screenshot is the Pechenegs invading Macedonia:



He still has 6 stars, which is the same as he had on the strategic map, illustrating my point. He does not need to be attacked for him to be defending, and he does not even need to be in war with a neighbour or anyone - the game interprets sitting idly in a province as defending it. I am not saying that your memory fails you, but if what happened to you was true, then it must be an error.

[Digital]

I always thought that when you are sitting in a province, the command stars you have is the command star without any vices or virtues added. Maybe I really made a mistake.

[Martok]

I always thought that when you are sitting in a province, the command stars you have is the command star without any vices or virtues added.

That's incorrect. A general that is simply sitting in the province will have both his base command ability AND his bonus from his defender ability.

For example: In the main campaign, the Spanish king (Alphonso VI) starts out with a base command of 4 stars. In addition, he has the trait Field Defence Specialist (+3 command), so sitting in Castille he gets a total of 7 stars (since the game automatically assumes he's defending the province).

However, if he leaves Castille to attack another province, he will only receive his base command ability of 4 stars. Make sense?

Maybe I really made a mistake.

Don't worry; it happens to the best of us. (I do it all the time!)

[Jxrc]

Martok is fully correct.

The only thing to add is that the game is a bit unfair as far as skilled attacker kings are concerned ....

Skilled defender kings have their increased stars taken into account when new heirs mature (unless they attack the same turn), while skilled attackers do not (unless they attack the same turn). Hence the superb heirs the Spanish and Byzantines get ... About the same number of stars as their daddies without being limited to defense only ...

[macsen rufus]

I think there are some virtues that ARE bugged though: both "skilled risky attack" and "skilled last stand" don't seem to work. I've tried both of those out in battle, and the general seemed to LOSE rather than gain the bonus - seems like the game didn't correctly calculate or recognise the out-numberedness of my armies (and I'm pretty sure it wasn't a case of an "expert defender" launching a "risky attack", too...)

[Deus ret.]

I think there are some virtues that ARE bugged though: both "skilled risky attack" and "skilled last stand" don't seem to work.

well as far as I can tell they're alright - "skilled [or better] last stand" even counts to the command star rating visible on the strategic map, providing for a nasty surprise if the enemy attacks with a less 'favorable' ratio and suddenly your 6-star hero (with "specialist last stand" or whatever it's called) becomes a mediocre 3-star commander.

Once in PMTW I had a battle when my two meagre Cossack infantry units were attacked simultaneously by the Tatars and the Russians. After the Tatars had routed the Russians, their all-HA army turned on me but failed miserably because my troops took cover in a nearby forest. After the battle (which I had won against a 5:1 ratio) my noob general got a star as well as the "skilled defender" and "skilled last stand" virtues - voilà, a three-star commander on the map who'd have one star when attacking and two in a regular defense situation. Later, he even got "expert last stand" and this was reflected correctly in the combat valor rating.

I'm not really sure about the "risky attacks" line of traits, though. To be honest I never tried it out since the circumstances in which it can be put to use are not too common.