Pike handling in woods

**Lord Adherbal** · 10-16-2006, 13:54

maybe this "bonus" is a negative bonus? It makes no sense that they have a bonus in either snow or wood.

**dcd111** · 10-16-2006, 14:31

When we saw those bonuses for pikemen in other pre-demo screenshots, I thought maybe it was just a faction-wide bonus for certain Northern European factions, but I didn't give it enough thought to really investigate. But those are French pikemen from the demo, I think, so my earlier hypothesis doesn't make sense anymore. I'm at work so I can't fire up the demo, but I assume that this is not a bonus listed on every French unit, is it? (Or whatever faction that is, if I'm incorrect) Do the HRE pikemen in the Battle of Pavia also have that same bonus, or is it only pikemen from certain factions?

It really doesn't make sense to me for pikemen to have a bonus in the woods or snow. I wonder if it is some kind of sloppy fix for a balancing issue CA might have discovered in their playtesting? Or maybe it's just a mistake and it should be a penalty (I would think snowy ground would make it difficult for pikemen to really dig in and hold up to a charge)?

- DCD

**Kalle** · 10-16-2006, 14:46

I fail to see pikes should be more penalised in snow then any others. If it is difficult to face a charge in snow it is equally difficult to conduct one, both for cav and inf. Try running in 50 centimetre snow even without being equiped for war and you will come to the same conclusion im sure.

In woods, pikes should not have a positive bonus i agree. In first mtw both cav and pike/spear had a negative bonus in woods i think.

Kalle

**CBR** · 10-16-2006, 15:16

Originally Posted by Kalle

In woods, pikes should not have a positive bonus i agree. In first mtw both cav and pike/spear had a negative bonus in woods i think.

Pikes and spears in MTW just lost their rank bonuses in woods.

CBR

**dcd111** · 10-16-2006, 15:16

Originally Posted by Kalle

I fail to see pikes should be more penalised in snow then any others. If it is difficult to face a charge in snow it is equally difficult to conduct one, both for cav and inf. Try running in 50 centimetre snow even without being equiped for war and you will come to the same conclusion im sure.

In woods, pikes should not have a positive bonus i agree. In first mtw both cav and pike/spear had a negative bonus in woods i think.

Kalle

Good point.

Since the bonus states both woods and snow, I was just thinking that maybe they were actually both penalties and trying to justify that, it doens't make much sense that one would be a mistake and one would be correct if they were listed together. I guess we'll just have to wait for the full game to see if this was intentional or an early error.

- DCD

**Ulstan** · 10-16-2006, 15:17

I think all infantry probably get a bonus fighting in woods, because cavalry and archers perform much less well in woods.

Look at it as a "we do better in woods than other guys" bonus instead of a "We do better in woods than we do in the clear" bonus.

I mean, some units get a bonus fighting in snow, but obviously, they're not more nimble and agile in 3 feet of snow than they would be in the clear. It's a bonus compared to how everyone *Else* is doing.

**Kralizec** · 10-16-2006, 15:43

Ideally there'd be units that fare badly in forests (cavalry and pikemen), units that are as normal (most units) and some units that are very effective in woods (skirmishers and other irregulars)

MTW handled this pretty well, spearmen didn't get an actual penalty but the trees often got in the way of forming an orderly formation.

**Azog 150** · 10-16-2006, 17:02

Ok, i think i have understood this now, basically all units belonging to factions in the north, including the knights if you have a look, have combat bonuses in woods or snow. And all eastern factions have combat bonuses in desert, i think this is to do with fatigue levels ect for the factions to discourage them into going into deserts or snow.

**dcd111** · 10-16-2006, 20:53

Originally Posted by dcd111

When we saw those bonuses for pikemen in other pre-demo screenshots, I thought maybe it was just a faction-wide bonus for certain Northern European factions, but I didn't give it enough thought to really investigate. But those are French pikemen from the demo, I think, so my earlier hypothesis doesn't make sense anymore.

Originally Posted by Azog 150

Ok, i think i have understood this now, basically all units belonging to factions in the north, including the knights if you have a look, have combat bonuses in woods or snow. And all eastern factions have combat bonuses in desert, i think this is to do with fatigue levels ect for the factions to discourage them into going into deserts or snow.

So my original thought was right, but I'm not sure that makes sense for France, or is that not France in that screenshot? Is France really so snowy that their men should actually receive a bonus from fighting in snow, rather than, say, just not be penalized? I'm no expert on European weather or geography, so I'm really just asking. I know there were some stretches in the middle ages that were cold enough to kill entire harvests in northern Europe and cause mass starvation, so maybe this is legitimate for that time period?

- DCD