Defense specialist general get command rating reduced when attacking and vice versa

[Digital]

Hi there,

I noticed that if you are a defense specialist, that is good defender, field defense specialist, etc, you will get a command boost when defending, but a command reduction when attacking. For example, if you are a 5 star general with the field defense specialist virtue, +3 command stars, you will be a 8 star general when defending but only a (5-3)2 star general when attacking. The same thing happens if you are a good attacker. Thus, medieval total war says that if you are a good defender, you won't be as good an attacker and vice versa.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I do not think this is the case. When you have a general with let's say two stars, if he gets the skilled defender, on the strategic map he will appear as a three star general, simply because by sitting in a province he is considered defending it (in case anyone invades or rebellion brakes out). There is no need for an actual defensive battle to take place for him to get his bonus and he will always have three stars when sitting still. Now, if you move him to invade another province, he will appear as a two stars general, simply because he does not get his bonus when attacking. Therefore, you may be misled into thinking he gets a penalty when attacking, but in reality he only loses his defending bonus. Does it make sense?

[r johnson]

Does it make sense?

Absoluty, in the eyes of the great all mighty he's not seen as a proven attacker yet. But i think i did see a general (not my own) who had good attacker and good defence in his vices and virtues, is this possible or did i just make it up?

[Kavhan Isbul]

It is possible, especially if you used this general in many battles, which you played yourself and won with a large ratio in your favour. Theoretically, you can have one and the same commander who is a skilled attacker, skilled defender, skilled last stand, skilled assaulter (this one is hard to get, but some are born with it) and skilled assault defender. I even once had one who was both a skilled defender and a weak defender, if you can believe that. If you can do it, it should be possible for the AI too.

[Digital]

Absoluty, in the eyes of the great all mighty he's not seen as a proven attacker yet. But i think i did see a general (not my own) who had good attacker and good defence in his vices and virtues, is this possible or did i just make it up?

I had a 6 stars general having the field defense specialist(+3 command stars while defending) together with the specialist attacker(+3 command stars while attacking). When attacking or defending, the virtues cancel each other out and my general ends up as a 6 stars general in both cases.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I had a 6 stars general having the field defense specialist(+3 command stars while defending) together with the specialist attacker(+3 command stars while attacking). When attacking or defending, the virtues cancel each other out and my general ends up as a 6 stars general in both cases.

Digital, I am afraid you are mistaking a 3 star general with a 6 star one. When your general simply sits in one of your provinces, he has 6 stars on the campaign map, because he is a 3 star general plus the 3 star bonus, or a 6 star general altogether. When he attacks, he is a 3 star general with a +3 attacking bonus, thus 6 again.
Now instead of looking at the Byzantine factions leader, take a look at the screenshots of the Pecheneg faction leade. He starts the game by being a skilled attacker (+1 command bonus when attacking) by default. He is a 4 star general too. You can see him on tha strategic map, sitting in Bulgaria, with 4 stars, which is the same number of stars when he defends two years later (he did not get any stars in the meantime). Now here is a screenshot of him attacking in Bulgaria on the first turn, and he has 5 stars because of his attacking bonus:



So, as you can see, he gets his bonus for attacker when he attacks, and gets no penalty at all when he defends.

[Digital]

Hmmmm, I remember that in one game I had a three stars general without any virtue. Then he was attacked by a large force and wins. He gets the skilled defender bonus, but he remains as a 3 stars general. The next turn, I invaded the province which attacked me, he becomes a 2 stars general as he is now attacking. The defenders retreated to the castle. Next turn, the enemy sallies out of the castle and a huge force from outside the province joined the battle, he becomes a 4 stars general, as he is now defending.

[Digital]

I do not think this is the case. When you have a general with let's say two stars, if he gets the skilled defender, on the strategic map he will appear as a three star general, simply because by sitting in a province he is considered defending it (in case anyone invades or rebellion brakes out). There is no need for an actual defensive battle to take place for him to get his bonus and he will always have three stars when sitting still. Now, if you move him to invade another province, he will appear as a two stars general, simply because he does not get his bonus when attacking. Therefore, you may be misled into thinking he gets a penalty when attacking, but in reality he only loses his defending bonus. Does it make sense?

For your case, on the strategic map, he will appear as a 2 star general.When defending or when there is a rebellion in the province,he will get three stars. When he is attacking, he will only be a 1 star general.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Are you sure? Every time I get a general with any defensive bonus, this is immediately reflected in the stars he appears to have on the strategic map. Here are two screenshots, which were not made for this purpose, but help illustrate what I have in mind. I was playing a MedMod campaign with the Pechenegs and on the first turn (A.D. 1087) I invaded Bulgaria. Here is the map in 1088, after the province was conquered:



If you look at the bottom right corner, in what is Constantinople (and is called Thrace in this particular mod), you will see the Byzantine Emperor. He has 7 stars (on the screenie you cannot see a star at the very bottom next to his shield, but he has 7, not 6). I remember him having a +2 bonus for being an expert defender (he starts with this quality). Without the bonus he would be a 5 star general, which is what he is in the next screenshot, when two years later he attacked me in Bulgaria in an attempt to reclaim the province.



Now he had 5 stars only, simply because he is attacking, not defending. However, if I were to attack in Constantinople, he would have all 7 stars. I will try to dig up a saved game and get a screenshot, but if you are thinking that if he has 7 stars in the strategic map, he should get 9 if he is attacked, I think it simply will not happen, for the seven stars already take into account the defensive bonus. A general is considered to be defending by default, and he will not get his bonus only if he is attacking, assaulting or being assaulted in a castle (I think for the purpose of the game assault defending is considered different than just defending).

The same apples for a general with an attacking bonus - after he gets the bonus he will keep the same number of stars he had before, and if his province is attacked, if he were a 4 star general before, he will be a 4 star general during the battle. He only gets his attacking bonus if he invades somewhere. He will not have the bonus if he assaults a castle, though.

Anyway, I will try to get another screenshot with the same Byzantine emperor I am using as an example to show exactly how the bonuses work, but I assure you - there is no defensive penalty for generals with attacker virtue and vice versa.