Developer blog update: Morale & Difficulty Settings

[CeltiberoMordred]

http://totalwardev.blogspot.com/

It looks promising.

[TB666]

Sounds very good.
I'm so gonna go for VH now that he is challenging us

[Bioximo]

If it is. I'd like to play on hard or very hard.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Looks good, does look promising FYI

[Monarch]

does look promising FYI

Lol I think you mean IMO ;)

Anyway seems...odd. Mainly from an mp aspect, what difficulty will we be set on? I mean if difficulty affects fatigue etc looks like this will surely effect mp...looks like just more rules and settings to chose

But otherwise looks good.

[Jambo]

So they've removed the bonuses to attack the AI got. That's good for immersion, but for me I imagine the AI will be even easier to beat considering I used to play on HARD in RTW and found that easy enough...

[Dooz]

Sounds good overall, but still hints that battles will be a bit too short for certain tastes. It was mentioned somewhere there that "you will be lucky if units rout within 30 seconds of engaging in melee, and if they do...". Seems overall battles still won't last too long, but I suppose such things can be modded.

Also, I kind of didn't mind the difficulty levels giving the AI attack bonuses, as it was the only way to kind of even out casualties in RTW. Maybe they should have some small defense bonuses or something? Well, in any case, I suppose we'll see how it all plays out in a few weeks, then modding will take care of the rest.

[Zatoichi]

It does sound like an improvement - I raised morale across the board in vanilla RTW to get battles to last longer, so it'll be nice if I don't have to do that again!

One thing that follows on from units lasting longer in combat is the number of casualties on both sides increasing.

This leads on to the inevitable retraining question - will the AI make sensible use of retraining on the campaign map, or will we face ragtag beaten up armies again like in RTW? Also, will retraining be like it is in RTW or will there be limits to the number of units retrained in a turn like in MTW? Will recruitment pools have an effect on retraining? I'm just retraining crazy tonight it would seem!

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think I see a couple of Martinellas in the background of that Milan fighting Byzantines pic. Looks like we might see them and Carraccios in the game.

[LadyAnn]

Best of luck to anyone that can beat the AI on the “Very hard” setting with a full 20 unit army. My advice is: if you are new to Total War and want to just get to grips with the controls start on the “Easy” setting, if you’re a veteran of Total War games opt for “Hard” or “Very Hard”. Best of all I am confident that “Very Hard” will ensure M2TW is going to sit in your PC for a long, long time, I can’t see even the best Total War Players winning on “Very Hard” without more troops.

I guess this will be the test before going on MP:
"Have you beat AI at Very Hard"?

Anniep
ps.: it seems we can set the difficulty level as we host MP, or I speculate too much?

[Lord Adherbal]

I hope this also means they fixed the instant destruction of (a large part of)routing units.

[Ironside]

So they've removed the bonuses to attack the AI got. That's good for immersion, but for me I imagine the AI will be even easier to beat considering I used to play on HARD in RTW and found that easy enough...

If you compare MTW with RTW you'll see a considerble difference in the difficulty of winning battles (in MTW:s favour, aka much harder battles). If his comments is correct then the AI is a huge improvement from MTW , and 200 miles ahead of the RTW one.

[shifty157]

Well. It does sound very promising. I know ill be going for VH/VH right away to see just how much thought they put into these changes.

[Martok]

Hmm. Dare I exhibit cautious optimism, or is it too soon yet?

[Barkhorn1x]

Hmm. Dare I exhibit cautious optimism, or is it too soon yet?

I hear ya, but hope is good.

Barkhorn.

[Tamur]

As K'ung-fu-tzu has said, "Only in the case of regime change is it always too soon to exhibit cautious optimism".

[Puzz3D]

Anyway seems...odd. Mainly from an mp aspect, what difficulty will we be set on? I mean if difficulty affects fatigue etc looks like this will surely effect mp...looks like just more rules and settings to chose.

Are there difficulty settings in MP now? There never have been before.

[econ21]

I really don't understand this blog. If morale and fatigue are ultra realistic on very hard, and the AI is at its smartest, I can't see why that makes playing on very hard a great challenge. It sounds like a level playing field, and I am pretty confident most experienced players can beat even the smartest TW AI on a level playing field.

The big tension with RTWs battlefield difficulty is between realism and challenge. Medium is realistic in the sense that unit match-ups are what you'd expect from the stats. But veteran SPers often press for hard or very hard to make it more challenging. This greater challenge comes at the price of unrealistic unit match-ups - AI hastati beating human principes etc.

I can see that higher morale across the board might be both more realistic and make it more challenging (as in RTR), but still on medium and with equal forces, the experienced player will still walk it.

Fatigue I actually think hurts the AI in RTW - it's often exhausted when it hits your fresh troops. I've started turning fatigue off to increase the challenge.

Smarter AI is nice, of course, but I can't see why it should not be on by default - rather than linked to difficulty levels. With all due respect to CA, I just can't see it being so smart, it's too smart for most players. Yes, a chess AI can thrash most inexperienced players like me but I doubt TW AI has got to that level yet - there are just too many and too complex options for the AI to compute.

Something does not compute. The only way I can see very hard being extremely difficult is if things are unrealistically slanted in favour of the AI (e.g. your men rout or tire realistically, but the AIs act like tireless Spartans). Either VH is not very challenging - which is unlikely given that Jason is an experienced MPer - or it is not the most realistic experience you are likely to have. If the AI will only be smart on a difficulty level where things are in some hidden way slanted in favour of the AI, then that is a bad game design decision, IMO.

[Oaty]

Sounds good overall, but still hints that battles will be a bit too short for certain tastes. It was mentioned somewhere there that "you will be lucky if units rout within 30 seconds of engaging in melee, and if they do...". Seems overall battles still won't last too long, but I suppose such things can be modded.

Even in MTW and STW you could get a unit to route in less than 30 seconds. I think the line :

"you will be lucky if units rout within 30 seconds of engaging in melee, and if they do..."

Is saying if a unit routs in less than 30 seconds you or the AI brought a knife to a gunfight.

[Jambo]

I really don't understand this blog. If morale and fatigue are ultra realistic on very hard, and the AI is at its smartest, I can't see why that makes playing on very hard a great challenge. It sounds like a level playing field, and I am pretty confident most experienced players can beat even the smartest TW AI on a level playing field.

The big tension with RTWs battlefield difficulty is between realism and challenge. Medium is realistic in the sense that unit match-ups are what you'd expect from the stats. But veteran SPers often press for hard or very hard to make it more challenging. This greater challenge comes at the price of unrealistic unit match-ups - AI hastati beating human principes etc.

I can see that higher morale across the board might be both more realistic and make it more challenging (as in RTR), but still on medium and with equal forces, the experienced player will still walk it.

Fatigue I actually think hurts the AI in RTW - it's often exhausted when it hits your fresh troops. I've started turning fatigue off to increase the challenge.

Smarter AI is nice, of course, but I can't see why it should not be on by default - rather than linked to difficulty levels. With all due respect to CA, I just can't see it being so smart, it's too smart for most players. Yes, a chess AI can thrash most inexperienced players like me but I doubt TW AI has got to that level yet - there are just too many and too complex options for the AI to compute.

Something does not compute. The only way I can see very hard being extremely difficult is if things are unrealistically slanted in favour of the AI (e.g. your men rout or tire realistically, but the AIs act like tireless Spartans). Either VH is not very challenging - which is unlikely given that Jason is an experienced MPer - or it is not the most realistic experience you are likely to have. If the AI will only be smart on a difficulty level where things are in some hidden way slanted in favour of the AI, then that is a bad game design decision, IMO.

My centiments exactly.

[Prince of the Poodles]

The new morale and fatigue system with nice combat speeds and larger unit sizes will ensure the game is smooth and ensures success is not determined by mere chance but by better tactics.

In the last few days the Quality Assurance department have been playing LAN games and many campaign players are now addicted to multiplayer.

umm... yay!

[Sol Invictus]

Time will tell. I desperately want to get my hopes up.

[Puzz3D]

The message from you, the community was loud and clear. As a result in Medieval II: Total War, the difficulty settings will only affect unit morale, fatigue and AI. As the difficulty ramps up, the influence of morale and fatigue become more apparent with the “Very Hard” setting giving you the most realistic battle experience possible. In addition we have included AI mechanics that will give the AI a faster and far more intelligent feel. Best of luck to anyone that can beat the AI on the “Very hard” setting with a full 20 unit army.

The AI units respond faster on the higher difficulty settings (Note the last sentence which suggests that no one will be able to handle the full 20 units against the AI which implies the AI gets some kind of speed advantage.), and I'm quite sure it's the player's morale and fatigue that gets lowered not the AI's. Difficulty settings have always caused a dispartiy in morale between the player and the AI in every Total War game, and now they've extended that idea to include fatigue. Also, the blog doesn't actually say the AI is more intelligent. What it says is that some AI mechanics have been included which gives the AI a more intelligent feel. Again this sounds like an advantage the AI gets and the player doesn't.

[danfda]

The AI units respond faster on the higher difficulty settings (Note the last sentence which suggests that no one will be able to handle the full 20 units against the AI which implies the AI gets some kind of speed advantage.), and I'm quite sure it's the player's morale and fatigue that gets lowered not the AI's. Difficulty settings have always caused a dispartiy in morale between the player and the AI in every Total War game, and now they've extended that idea to include fatigue. Also, the blog doesn't actually say the AI is more intelligent. What it says is that some AI mechanics have been included which gives the AI a more intelligent feel. Again this sounds like an advantage the AI gets and the player doesn't.

Normally I agree with you Puzz3D, but you lost me here. I don't think that he means any actual "speed" difference, as in the AI's troops move faster than yours do. It seems to me Jason intimated that the AI will react more readily and aggressively to your troop maneuvers--for example, recognizing and moving to counter any flanking attempts more quickly--than the troops sprinting like Justin Gatlin on steroids. The AI may get some less obvious and less potent fatigue and morale gifts on VH, as econ21 illustrated, that may give the illusion of being faster, but I do not think you can draw the conclusion that speed itself is altered. Those AI bonuses are designed to make the game closer to the challenge that we all desire (which I am sure you're okay with and I myself don't mind), but I would be astounded if the AI itself wasn't greatly improved. They made such a leap from MTW to RTW that the AI couldn't really keep up. Now having learned some lessons, there is no reason not to expect the AI to be much more "intelligent."

But that is my opinion, and only mine.

[Jambo]

I agree. After all, isn't speed actually tied to the soldier model and its animation?

Anyway, I still fail to see how Jason can be so adamant that TW vets won't be able to beat the AI 20 on 20 at VH. That's never happened in any of the TW titles to date and I seriously doubt it's going to start here.

I hope that the AI isn't dumbed down for the easier difficulty levels - that makes no sense. The AI should be as good as it can be all the time. Bonuses to fatigue and morale seem fair enough ways to compensate the AI at the higher difficulty levels. In fact, coping with fatigue is arguably the AI's achilles heel in all TW games, particularly during lengthy siege battles. In that respect maybe giving it a helping hand with fatigue will be a great addition...

[Furious Mental]

Technically it should be possible to beat an enemy with an equal army if one uses the right tactics. The fact that it supposedly isn't suggests two things
- the AI is now so amazingly good that it will outwit you every time
- the computer side now has even more ridiculous stats bonuses

The latter is much more likely and frankly I find that very disappointing

[Puzz3D]

Normally I agree with you Puzz3D, but you lost me here. I don't think that he means any actual "speed" difference, as in the AI's troops move faster than yours do. It seems to me Jason intimated that the AI will react more readily and aggressively to your troop maneuvers--for example, recognizing and moving to counter any flanking attempts more quickly--than the troops sprinting like Justin Gatlin on steroids. The AI may get some less obvious and less potent fatigue and morale gifts on VH, as econ21 illustrated, that may give the illusion of being faster, but I do not think you can draw the conclusion that speed itself is altered. Those AI bonuses are designed to make the game closer to the challenge that we all desire (which I am sure you're okay with and I myself don't mind), but I would be astounded if the AI itself wasn't greatly improved. They made such a leap from MTW to RTW that the AI couldn't really keep up. Now having learned some lessons, there is no reason not to expect the AI to be much more "intelligent."

But that is my opinion, and only mine.

I didn't say the AI units will move faster. I said they will respond faster. I was thinking there might be a reduction in the delay responding to orders for the AI. Actually Jason says the AI will have a faster and more intelligent feel which is a subjective thing, but I think it's more than just an illusion because he says it makes the game harder.

Where does econ21 illustrate that the AI gets fatigue and morale gifts? He uses the term "across the board", and talks about increased fatigue hurting the AI. I think only the player is going to get increased fatigue. Similarly, only the AI will get a morale boost or possibly the player will get a morale reduction. They also have dumbed down the AI on easy difficulty in past games.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Well, I just re-installed RTW on my computer after a gap of a year, and just started reading these forums again, and the blogs (blogs?! - unheard of!). I have to say its all sounding rather nice. I was utterly dissappointed with RTW mulitplay and stopped playing very quickly after getting it, after being a regular on the STW and MTW servers. Maybe that will now change with the new game? Oh i hope so... - I miss the challenge and atmosphere of a balanced 4 by 4

Fingers crossed...

[LadyAnn]

There is a delay response between the time you give your order and the time the unit acts on it. It is quite noticeable and it is not machine speed dependent (I played demo on both crappy laptop and my gaming machine and there were same fraction-of-a-second delay).

So I guess there is an artificial delay between command and action for both player and AI. Depend on setting, AI may get faster response time.

Anniep

[danfda]

I didn't say the AI units will move faster. I said they will respond faster. I was thinking there might be a reduction in the delay responding to orders for the AI. Actually Jason says the AI will have a faster and more intelligent feel which is a subjective thing, but I think it's more than just an illusion because he says it makes the game harder.

Fair enough; I had not considered the order delay that is in RTW, since I've not played it in a very long time. MTW fills up the void in my gaming, and then some... But when you said "which implies the AI gets some kind of speed advantage" I took it to be a literal speed advantage, when in actuality you meant the exact same thing I did. And I still can't imagine that the AI will be on par with RTW's; CA has to have learned something in the intervening years and the AI must be improved, all subjectivity aside.

Where does econ21 illustrate that the AI gets fatigue and morale gifts? He uses the term "across the board", and talks about increased fatigue hurting the AI. I think only the player is going to get increased fatigue. Similarly, only the AI will get a morale boost or possibly the player will get a morale reduction. They also have dumbed down the AI on easy difficulty in past games

I got that from him saying "[t]his greater challenge comes at the price of unrealistic unit match-ups - AI hastati beating human principes etc." How does that happen...why from AI bonuses or (to be safe) player minuses.

So really, the only thing I meant by my original post is you confused me with your improper "speed" usage. Whoops.