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Thread: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    650,000 dead but at least they died for freedom, or was that to make the world safer by removing weapons of mass destruction? Regardless, that's a crap load of dead people who should still be alive. How will my children live with the amount of hate that is going to exist in the hearts of the children of these 650,000 dead people? What a terrible legacy to leave future generations. The only hope is that they prove to be better people than us at learning to forgive and turn the other cheek.

    The Statistical Assessment Service ( http://www.STATS.org ) - a non-profit, non-partisan media research organization affiliated with George Mason University and committed to correcting scientific misinformation in the media - finds the study estimating 650,000 excess Iraqi casualties since American forces entered the country to be methodologically sound.

    In an analyis released today, STATS Director of Research Dr. Rebecca Goldin defended the research technique of cluster sampling behind the study, writing that "the methods used by this study are the only scientific methods we have for discovering death rates in war torn countries without the infrastructure to report all deaths through central means. Instead of dismissing over half a million dead people as a political ploy ... we ought to embrace science as opening our eyes to a tragedy whose death scale has been vastly underestimated until now."

    She goes into great detail about both the strengths of the research, as well as the arguments against it.

    - Prior Support from the Scientific Community:

    While the Lancet numbers are shocking, the study's methodology is not. The scientific community is in agreement over the statistical methods used to collect the data and the validity of the conclusions drawn by the researchers conducting the study. When the prequel to this study appeared two years ago by the same authors (at that time, 100,000 excess deaths were reported), the Chronicle of Higher Education published a long article explaining the support within the scientific community for the methods used.

    - The Methodology of "Cluster Sampling":

    Cluster sampling is a well-established in statistics, and is routinely used to estimate casualties in natural disasters or war zones. For the Iraq study the researchers randomly chose people to interview about deaths in their families, interviewed a cluster of households around them, and then extrapolated the results to the whole population. There is nothing controversial in the method itself, though people can certainly question whether the sampling was done correctly.

    - Attacks on Study are Ideological, not Scientific:

    There has been a wealth of material on the web attacking the Lancet study. Most of it is devoid of science, and ranges from outrage at the numbers (it's impossible to believe it could be so high), to accusations of bias based on the authors' views of U.S. foreign policy. Interested parties such as the Iraqi government responded quickly by calling the numbers "inflated" and "far from the truth", rather than putting forward any real reasons why these numbers are unlikely to have occurred. President Bush, for one, says he does "not consider it a credible report."

    About STATS - Since its founding in 1994, the non-profit, non-partisan Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) has become a much-valued resource on the use and abuse of science and statistics in the media. Its goals are to correct scientific misinformation in the media resulting from bad science, politics, or a simple lack of information or knowledge; and to act as a resource for journalists and policy makers on major scientific issues and controversies. To find out more about STATS, visit http://www.STATS.org.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Sound science my foot.

    This study is statistical hocus pocus and manipulation at its worst. Their previous study (suggesting 100,000 deaths) used similarly shaky methods and was discussed and debunked at length here.

    As to being non-partisan, one of the study's authors has said himself that he chose the timing of the report in hopes that it could influence the election.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-19-2006 at 01:03.
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    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    This study is statistical hocus pocus and manipulation at its worst. Their previous study (suggesting 100,000 deaths) used similarly shaky methods and was discussed and debunked at length here.
    Right - this place is much better at appraising statistical studies (which none of us have read) than the Lancet peer review process.

    As to being non-partisan, one of the study's authors has said himself that he chose the timing of the report in hopes that it could influence the election.
    This is not unusual when doing policy-related research. For some reason, university research is expected to be useful. For policy-related research (as a study of Iraqi mortality surely is), that means influencing policy. A lot of funding agencies - especially public ones - require project proposals to identify a potential impact on policy. Usually, it's empty promises (most academics are not very useful) but occasionally the topic and the timing might come together to produce something of wider interest. I'm off to an academic conference (on economics) in a couple of days that was timed to influence (read: inform) the Presidential election in the country I'm studying. Nothing sinister or partisan in that.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    *sigh*

    When we hashed through this hogwash last time people (myself included) had posted links to various criticisms of the study that showed it to be statistically unsound. The numbers shown in the study were totally out of line with even the highest figures given by any other study.

    You don't have to look far, even the anti-war iraqbodycount.net has a press release out the criticizes the new figures as outlandish.
    A new study has been released by the Lancet medical journal estimating over 650,000 excess deaths in Iraq. The Iraqi mortality estimates published in the Lancet in October 2006 imply, among other things, that:

    1. On average, a thousand Iraqis have been violently killed every single day in the first half of 2006, with less than a tenth of them being noticed by any public surveillance mechanisms;
    2. Some 800,000 or more Iraqis suffered blast wounds and other serious conflict-related injuries in the past two years, but less than a tenth of them received any kind of hospital treatment;
    3. Over 7% of the entire adult male population of Iraq has already been killed in violence, with no less than 10% in the worst affected areas covering most of central Iraq;
    4. Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued;
    5. The Coalition has killed far more Iraqis in the last year than in earlier years containing the initial massive "Shock and Awe" invasion and the major assaults on Falluja.

    If these assertions are true, they further imply:

    * incompetence and/or fraud on a truly massive scale by Iraqi officials in hospitals and ministries, on a local, regional and national level, perfectly coordinated from the moment the occupation began;
    * bizarre and self-destructive behaviour on the part of all but a small minority of 800,000 injured, mostly non-combatant, Iraqis;
    * the utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas;
    * an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year.

    In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data.
    In addition, totals of the magnitude generated by this study are unnecessary to brand the invasion and occupation of Iraq a human and strategic tragedy.
    The numbers of deaths in any other study I know of don't even approach 1/10th of what the this "study" is claiming, yet you think we should take this one that's based on unreliable survey data instead of the ongoing counts that have tracked actual records. This study doesnt even pass the common sense test as indicated by the above quotes and it flies completely in the face of every single tangible figure we have on the issue... go ahead and try to find another credible study anywhere that even comes close to approaching the figure of 650,000.

    I wouldnt use this study to wrap fish in...
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-19-2006 at 04:43.
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    650,000 + is ridiculous. Whats even more ridiculous is that people believe it!
    ...trying to remember to spell check...

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles
    650,000 + is ridiculous. Whats even more ridiculous is that people believe it!
    The average Joe does not have the time nor intellect to debunk such a claim. Of course people are going to believe it.



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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Are you kidding me, are these scientists stoned? You can't make a body count for anything by using cluster sampling thats insane. Firstly that article leaves out the locations of the random clustering. Of course in some area's it will be higher then others, taking a high area and using a death rate from there to extrapolate the death toll for the remainder of the country is an incredible jump. You might be able to use clustering for small portions of a city or maybe even an entire city, but even thats shaky science. 650,000 is insane not even the most out of proportion guestimates by neo liberals put it even above 200,000.

    There comment that cluster sampling is used to estimate casualty rates in natural disasters as a way to support its authenticity is also idiotic. Most of the time those are wrong and way way way way off. The first few estimates from New orleans after Katrina using cluster sampling lead to casualty rates being estimated at around 15,0000 or more.

    If anything this is a policy study to help support anti drug enforcement. Get off the medicinal herbal supplements, and get back to real science.
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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Wow, it looks like liberals don't leave the overestimation with just exit polls these days. President Kerry probably helped with the figures on this study.
    RIP Tosa

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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    This must also be the guy who counted heads at the million man march. I think he also counted the Albanian refugees when Clinton decided to bomb the snot out of Belgrade.
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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Ha ha, stupid liberals and their “science”.

    Suddenly we here are all experts I guess? For those interested in reading the original study please go here: http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/im...3606694919.pdf. You will find all the locations of where they took their clusters in the report. The Lancet is not some crack house but a highly respected academic institution.

    I also believe the numbers are unbelievably high but that doesn’t make them untrue. If the study hasn’t been ridiculed by academia but accepted as valid science then how can we, the non-statisticians, say the numbers are not true?


    The full statement by Dr. Rebecca Goldin of STATS might be better to read than the snippet I originally posted.

    The Science of Counting the Dead
    By Rebecca Goldin Ph.D.
    A recent study published in the Lancet claims that over 650,000 “excess” deaths have occurred in Iraq since the invasion in March, 2003. STATS look at how scientists figure these numbers out, how their methods compare to other counts, and whether criticism of the numbers is justified. A companion article examines the media coverage.
    10/17/06 "STATS" -- -- If you want to know the number of people who died in 2005 from heart disease in the United States, you need go no further than a website hosted by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), which collects the information every year. Every death in the United States is recorded by the National Center for Health Statistics, as is the main cause of death.
    There are, of course, imperfections. There can be more than one cause of death or the cause can be unknown; a suicide might have been a murder; sometimes a body is never found; there have also been times when this system fails, such as when AIDS first emerged.
    War-torn countries do not have central registries to record deaths. People do not necessarily die in hospitals, and their bodies are not necessarily sent to morgues. While the press makes no claim to having actually seen all the deaths that occur, the website Iraq Body Count (IBC) keeps a database of “media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq that have resulted from the 2003 military intervention by the USA and its allies.” The IBC does not count excess deaths due to a deterioration of infrastructure, lack of hospitals or clean water. Nor does it count deaths not reported by the media. At least in theory, innumerable deaths occur quietly, under the radar screen of any accounting office.
    The Iraqi health ministry also counts deaths. However, the BBC reported in 2005 that the recorded deaths were based on hospital records, which are unreliable when records and even hospitals are being destroyed. And in December 2003, the ministry ordered a halt to all attempts to count civilian deaths, according to the Associated Press. Currently, the official number of dead is about 50,000, based on hospital and morgue data.
    Public health researchers have rejected this official tally of deaths in favor of an epidemiological approach. In a careful study published in the Lancet, a prestigious British journal for medicine, professors from Johns Hopkins University and the School of Medicine at Al Mustansirlya Univesity in Baghdad found through a random sampling of Iraqi households that over 650,000 deaths have occurred in Iraq since the invasion in 2003, that would not have occurred had there not been war.
    While the Lancet numbers are shocking, the study’s methodology is not. The scientific community is in agreement over the statistical methods used to collect the data and the validity of the conclusions drawn by the researchers conducting the study. When the prequel to this study appeared two years ago by the same authors (at that time, 100,000 excess deaths were reported), the Chronicle of Higher Education published a long article explaining the support within the scientific community for the methods used.
    President Bush, however, says he does “not consider it a credible report” and the media refer to the study as “controversial.” And even as the Associated Press reported mixed reviews, all the scientists quoted in its piece on the “controversy” were solidly behind the methods used. Indeed, the Washington Post points out that this and the earlier study are the “only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods.”


    How can science be done by surveys and is cluster sampling nonsense?

    Surveys are at the heart of epidemiological studies in which prevalence information (how often a disease or trait – or death– occurs) is not available through centralized sources. One of the most widely cited surveys in the US is the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey which estimates a variety of information, from how many Americans have Diabetes to who uses pesticides. This is carried out under the auspices of the National Center for Health, which is in turn under the CDC. While, in theory, some of this information is available through other sources – doctors, for example, could report how many of their patients are treated for diabetes – there is no way of centrally recording the information and making sure that everyone with diabetes is actually counted. As a consequence, statistics have been developed to solve this problem.
    Cluster sampling is a well-established in statistics, and is routinely used to estimate casualties in natural disasters or war zones. For the Iraq study the researchers randomly chose people to interview about deaths in their families, interviewed a cluster of households around them, and then extrapolated the results to the whole population. There is nothing controversial in the method itself, though people can certainly question whether the sampling was done correctly.
    As with all surveying, the result is still an estimate, not an exact number. That’s just because a sample of the population was interviewed instead of every person. Thus, the authors of the Lancet study didn’t find 650,000 dead people – they found some 547 deaths after talking to about 12,800 people and extrapolated to how many they would have found had they talked to 27 million. They compared this to how many would have died at previous mortality rates before March 2003. The estimate is only as good as the sample population approximates the whole population. But the more people you survey, the more accurate the estimate.
    Thus, 650,000 deaths is only an estimate; the range of possible deaths is actually 392,979 to 942,636. What this means is that we can be 95 percent certain that the number of excess deaths is in this range, but our best estimate is 654,965. You can think of this as a bell curve, centered 654,965 where the curve is highest. The other values in the range are less likely than to be the “true value” though not as much less likely as a number outside the range.


    How good is the science in this particular study?

    There has been a wealth of material on the web attacking the Lancet study. Most of it is devoid of science, and ranges from outrage at the numbers (it’s impossible to believe it could be so high), to accusations of bias based on the authors’ views of U.S. foreign policy. Interested parties such as the Iraqi government responded quickly by calling the numbers “inflated” and “far from the truth”, rather than putting forward any real reasons why these numbers are unlikely to have occurred. The Washington Post reported that the Defense Department’s response was that coalition forces “takes enormous precautions,” and suggested that the deaths are the “result of insurgent activity”.
    In statistics error does not mean “mistake” – it is, rather, a measurement of how certain we can be of the results. In the Lancet study, and studies of a similar kind, there are two types of possible error: one coming from built-in bias and one coming from the use of statistics itself. While bias can hardly ever be teased out if it is intrinsic to the study, there are many techniques to minimize the error due to chance. The Lancet authors took care to interview enough families (about 1800 households) so that the possibility that they randomly chose families more affected by violence than others would be small enough not to affect their overall message. That message is essentially that other estimates of deaths due to the war are off by an order of magnitude.
    The error intrinsic to statistics is often a target of criticism: if there’s error no matter what we do, how can we know anything? That line of reasoning makes about as much as sense as saying “since I’m not going to get exactly half heads and half tails if I flip a coin, I can’t say anything at all about whether a coin is biased.” Of course we can: we can calculate the likelihood that flipping a coin will be heads or tails. We can even calculate that the likelihood of getting all heads or all tails when flipping a coin ten times is less than one in 500. This leads us to the conclusion: if someone happens to flip a coin ten times and gets all heads, the coin is probably biased.
    Since a survey does not actually interview everyone, it is possible that, purely by chance, the sample does not represent the whole population. For example, in conducting a poll between two candidates who are actually neck-and-neck, a pollster could, inadvertently, interview only Democrats. The survey would then get the result that the public is hugely in favor of one of the candidates and not the other – contrary to what the population actually feels. However, the chance of this happening is practicallyzero if there are enough people surveyed. If there are only ten people surveyed, it wouldn’t be so surprising if they were all Democrats. But if 1,000 randomly chosen people are interviewed, it is practically impossible to end up with all Democrats.
    In the same way, it is theoretically possible for the scientists in the Lancet study to have interviewed 1,800 households that just happened to be wracked by violence, while the rest of the country was not. Or it could happen that the specific regions randomly chosen by the scientists were more heavily affected by violence than the rest of the country. The main point here is that these scenarios are extremely unlikely to occur, even though no one can rule out that possibility.
    The error coming from the use of statistics is found in the confidence interval. In the case of the Iraqi deaths study, the confidence interval for the number of excess deaths is 392,979 to 942,636 people. What this means is that, if the survey were conducted again, we could be 95 percent confident that the excess deaths would fall in this range again.
    The most likely number of excess deaths is 654,965. In terms of probabilities, it means that re-doing the interviews would result in a number that is much more likely to be near this figure than it is to be near 400,000 or near 900,000. We can be very confident that the number of deaths is extremely unlikely to have been less than 392,000 (less than 2.5 percent chance). For those who question the very technique of sampling, Cervantes -- a medical and health sociologist -- explains how the methods are standard fare for those doing this kind of research, as does any basic text on how to conduct polls.


    Does anyone disagree with the study based on scientific principles?

    At The Questionable Authority, blogger Mike Dunford points out some possible bias that might have led the researchers to numbers higher than they should be. First, he argues that the Lancet study used population estimates obtained by a joint Iraqi/UN population study, rather than those of the Iraqi Ministry of Health, which the same authors had used two years earlier. Dunford points out that if the total population (estimated to be approximately 27 million people) is invalid, then so is the estimate of 650,000. This is certainly true, but there is no reason to suspect that these organizations would be biased towards reporting a larger population than thereactually is. Dunford seems to imply that there are vying estimates out there, but he only cites information from 18 months earlier. If Dunford is correct that the population has been overestimated by as much as 11 percent, then the excess deaths should actually be estimated at about 580,000 instead of 650,000.
    Dunford also points out that the excess deaths attributed to nonviolent causes was not statistically significant, and that, therefore, they should not be included in the total. Here, this is simply a question of standard statistical protocol. The main purpose of the study is to measure excess deaths, without regard to cause. For this, the nonviolent causes are relevant, even if not statistically significant by themselves. The authors did find that the increase in violent deaths was (highly) statistically significant, which is why they are reported separately. Thus it would be difficult to argue from this study that Iraq’s infrastructure is falling apart and that people dying from a lack of hospitals. But the authors have not made such claims in their paper.
    Flares into Darkness argues that the sampling method would invariably favor densely populated areas, and that these areas would have disproportionate levels of bombs. It is certainly true that densely populated areas are more likely to be sampled – but only proportional to their population. In other words, if ten times as many people live in Region A than live in rural Region B, then Region A is ten times as likely to be chosen as a sampling destination. Overall, this will not have the effect of oversampling cities; it will have the effect of sampling cities proportional to their population, and rural areas proportional to theirs. Flares into Darkness insists that the room that these scientists had to change who they interviewed based on perceived threats gave them just enough leeway to cheat and pick places with more deaths. But this accusation is tantamount to their fixing the data; it simply doesn’t address the core findings of the study.
    Flares into Darkness also claims that overall rates of death could be affected by the fact that deaths with specific causes could be correlated: a car bomb, for example, could kill several people at once in neighboring houses. If the sample happened to take in a neighborhood that took a bad hit from car bombs, then it could lead to an incorrect extrapolation to the whole population, when, the researchers just happened to sample a badly-hit area.
    Yet again, it is standard statistical protocol in a cluster sampling survey to take this into account. The authors adjust for the fact that there is higher correlation within clusters than across clusters. As the authors point out in their analysis section, “The SE (standard error) for mortality rates were calculated with robust variance estimation that took into account the correlation between rates of death within the same cluster over time.”
    While the authors did consider the issue of correlated deaths, it should also be noted that even if the authors did not correctly account for these correlations, the affect would be to widen the confidence interval, not lower the estimate. For just as correlated deaths could mean that what the observers saw was a fluke, it could also mean that the observers didn’t see the truly bad parts.
    The last criticism that has spread widely in the blogosphere is that the pre-war mortality rates were underestimated. Since this study used prewar death rates to estimate how many deaths would have occurred anyway – and subtracted these off to obtain the “excess deaths,” a lower pre-war death rate makes for a higher estimate of excess deaths. There is little compelling reason to believe that the prewar death rates were underestimated, as they were corroborated by the the study itself.
    The study found a prewar death rate of 5.5 per 1000 people per year, which was roughly the same as that found by the CIA and the U.S. Census bureau, according to Gilbert Burnham, one of the authors of the study from John Hopkins University. In other words, the prewar death rate was not just “invented” or taken from an unreliable source; it was supported by data from the same interviews.


    What should we not take from this study?

    The Lancet study does an excellent job in counting the dead, but its purpose does not lie in pointing fingers. While the study reports that 31 percent of excess deaths were caused by
    coalition forces, it is possible that those reporting the crimes might be biased by anit-coalition sentiment. Those families may be more likely to believe and report that a violent death was attributable to coalition forces. Of course, bias could go the other direction as well – we simply do not know. We also cannot assess who died – civilians or those involved with the armed conflict. Again, it would be easy to see how bias would affect reports by family members.
    The methods used by this study are the only scientific methods we have for discovering death rates in war torn countries without the infrastructure to report all deaths through central means. Instead of dismissing over half a million dead people as a political ploy as did Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington, we ought to embrace science as opening our eyes to a tragedy whose death scale has been vastly underestimated until now.
    and New Zealand.

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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
    As with all surveying, the result is still an estimate, not an exact number. That’s just because a sample of the population was interviewed instead of every person. Thus, the authors of the Lancet study didn’t find 650,000 dead people – they found some 547 deaths after talking to about 12,800 people and extrapolated to how many they would have found had they talked to 27 million. They compared this to how many would have died at previous mortality rates before March 2003. The estimate is only as good as the sample population approximates the whole population. But the more people you survey, the more accurate the estimate.
    The study claims to be an estimate of civilian casualties, but does not descriminate between natural deaths that would have happened naturally and deaths that are a cause of violence. Also your poll uses mortality rates to extrapolate the numbers based on a country that was ruled by a ruthless dictator, mortality rates would of course be biased then. The poll is flawed, right from the begining, you cannot use statistics extrapolated from shaky facts to come up with civilian deaths. Also since your doing cluster plots how can you be certain that 2-3 families are not reporting the same death? Statistics do not work well for casualty rates of an even that is stoll unraveling. Again i'll point out that casualty rates of Kartina in New Orleans based off cluster plots reported a massive 15,000 deaths, the actuall death toll was what....... around 2000?
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex
    The study claims to be an estimate of civilian casualties, but does not descriminate between natural deaths that would have happened naturally and deaths that are a cause of violence. Also your poll uses mortality rates to extrapolate the numbers based on a country that was ruled by a ruthless dictator, mortality rates would of course be biased then. The poll is flawed, right from the begining, you cannot use statistics extrapolated from shaky facts to come up with civilian deaths. Also since your doing cluster plots how can you be certain that 2-3 families are not reporting the same death? Statistics do not work well for casualty rates of an even that is stoll unraveling. Again i'll point out that casualty rates of Kartina in New Orleans based off cluster plots reported a massive 15,000 deaths, the actuall death toll was what....... around 2000?
    I don't see what your point is. (2000/15000)*650,000 is ~87,000.

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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    I don't see what your point is. (2000/15000)*650,000 is ~87,000.
    My point is not the actual mathmatics. Its that statistics of current warzones or disaster zones are generally off, and way off. Usually quite low or insanely high.
    How will my children live with the amount of hate that is going to exist in the hearts of the children of these 650,000 dead people?
    You can't use statistics as facts, as iron seems to be implying here. They are inharently flawed and are nearly always incorrect. Sometimes close, but incorrect. Currently 48,783 deaths have been reported due to military intervention. 654,965 deaths total would mean a staggering 13.43 deaths unreported for each reported, somethings wrong with that poll.

    Although 87,000 isnt far off from some guesses about that the casualties are last I checked.
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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Tex, I have no idea. As I said earlier, I'm not a statistician. It doesn't sound like you are either. Perhaps you should write to the authors of the original study and ask for their response? You could also try asking the folks at STATS.

    You read can the actual report here - http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/im...3606694919.pdf



    BTW - Your Katrina story proves nothing. Just because one study using a particular methodology is wrong doesn't mean the method is.
    As an example: Let's say a colleague and I use radio-carbon dating to determine the age of two different archaeological artifacts from two different archaeological sites. It is later proven that I made a few mistakes taking my sample for dating and it threw off my dating by several thousand years. This doesn't make my more careful colleague’s results (and every other Radio Carbon date) null and void simply because he was using the same dating method. It just shows I was careless. You see where I'm going?

    Now I'm not qualified to debate the intricacies of statistical sampling but from what I've read by experts in the field it appears cluster sampling is an accepted technique. This particular study could be wrong but I've yet to see any credible scientific critique demonstrate that.

    EDIT -
    You can't use statistics as facts, as iron seems to be implying here
    I have never said that nor implied it. I am quite familiar with what statistics are.
    Last edited by IRONxMortlock; 10-19-2006 at 08:22.
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Children (0–14 years) Adults (15–59 years) Elderly people (60+ years) All deaths by cause†
    Men Women
    Pre-invasion (n=82)
    Non-violent deaths 14 (100%) 19 (95%) 6 (100%) 40 (96%) 80 (98%)
    Heart disease/stroke 0 6 (30%) 2 (33%) 12 (29%) 20 (24%)
    Cancer 1 (7%) 5 (25%) 1 (17%) 8 (20%) 15 (18%)
    Chronic illness 1 (7%) 5 (25%) 0 9 (22%) 15 (18%)
    Infant 11 (79%) NA NA NA 11 (13%)
    Accident 0 3 (15%) 2 (33%) 2 (5%) 7 (9%)
    Old age NA NA NA 8 (20%) 8 (10%)
    Infectious disease 0 0 0 1 (2%) 1 (1%)
    Other (non-violent) 1 (7%) 0 1 (17%) 0 3 (4%)
    Violent deaths 0 1 (5%) 0 1 (2%) 2 (2%)
    Other explosion/ordnance 0 1 (5%) 0 0 1 (1%)
    Air strike 0 0 0 1 (2%) 1 (1%)
    Total deaths 14 (100%) 20 (100%) 6 (100%) 41 (100%) 82 (100%)
    Post-invasion (n=547)
    Non-violent deaths 40 (60%) 37 (14%) 39 (72%) 126 (92%) 247 (46%)
    Heart disease/stroke 1 (2%) 15 (6%) 11 (20%) 74 (54%) 102 (19%)
    Cancer 1 (2%) 5 (2%) 14 (26%) 11 (8%) 33 (6%)
    Chronic illness 0 5 (2%) 3 (6%) 18 (13%) 28 (5%)
    Infant 29 (43%) NA NA NA 29 (5%)
    Accident 8 (12%) 5 (2%) 6 (11%) 4 (3%) 23 (4%)
    Old age NA NA NA 19 (14%) 19 (4%)
    Infectious disease 1 (2%) 1 (0%) 1 (2%) 0 3 (1%)
    Other (non-violent) 0 6 (2%) 4 (7%) 0 10 (2%)
    Violent deaths 26 (39%) 235 (86%) 15 (28%) 11 (8%) 300 (55%)
    Gunshot 3 (5%) 142 (49%) 6 (11%) 9 (7%) 169 (31%)
    Other explosion/ordnance 4 (6%) 33 (12%) 2 (4%) 1 (1%) 42 (8%)
    Air strike 13 (20%) 23 (9%) 2 (4%) 1 (1%) 39 (7%)
    Car bomb 3 (5%) 28 (10%) 5 (9%) 0 38 (7%)
    Unknown (violent) 1 (2%) 5 (2%) 0 0 6 (1%)
    Accident 2 (3%) 4 (1%) 0 0 6 (1%)
    Total deaths 66 (100%) 272 (100%) 54 (100%) 137 (100%) 547 (100%)
    Nuff said the statistics are not what the claim.
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    There's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

    (not saying these particular statistics are bunk, I have no made up opinion on them)

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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
    BTW - Your Katrina story proves nothing. Just because one study using a particular methodology is wrong doesn't mean the method is.
    That's funny, because the excerpts you quoted above also used CDC surveys on the top causes of death... Anybody remember how many times they had to revise those numbers? At one point they actually said obesity was the primary killer in the US.

    Sadly for debate purposes, but I suspect rightly for scientific reasons, no one seems to be giving much serious attention to this newest study after their last was so thoroughly debunked. So, for argument's sake- let's look at some of the outright dishonesty employed in the last Iraq "cluster" study.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The authors of a peer-reviewed study, conducted by a survey team from Johns Hopkins University, claim that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war. Yet a close look at the actual study, published online today by the British medical journal the Lancet, reveals that this number is so loose as to be meaningless.

    The report's authors derive this figure by estimating how many Iraqis died in a 14-month period before the U.S. invasion, conducting surveys on how many died in a similar period after the invasion began (more on those surveys later), and subtracting the difference. That difference—the number of "extra" deaths in the post-invasion period—signifies the war's toll. That number is 98,000. But read the passage that cites the calculation more fully:

    We estimate there were 98,000 extra deaths (95% CI 8000-194 000) during the post-war period.

    Readers who are accustomed to perusing statistical documents know what the set of numbers in the parentheses means. For the other 99.9 percent of you, I'll spell it out in plain English—which, disturbingly, the study never does. It means that the authors are 95 percent confident that the war-caused deaths totaled some number between 8,000 and 194,000. (The number cited in plain language—98,000—is roughly at the halfway point in this absurdly vast range.)

    This isn't an estimate. It's a dart board.

    Imagine reading a poll reporting that George W. Bush will win somewhere between 4 percent and 96 percent of the votes in this Tuesday's election. You would say that this is a useless poll and that something must have gone terribly wrong with the sampling. The same is true of the Lancet article: It's a useless study; something went terribly wrong with the sampling.

    The problem is, ultimately, not with the scholars who conducted the study; they did the best they could under the circumstances. The problem is the circumstances. It's hard to conduct reliable, random surveys—and to extrapolate meaningful data from the results of those surveys—in the chaotic, restrictive environment of war.

    However, these scholars are responsible for the hype surrounding the study. Gilbert Burnham, one of the co-authors, told the International Herald Tribune (for a story reprinted in today's New York Times), "We're quite sure that the estimate of 100,000 is a conservative estimate." Yet the text of the study reveals this is simply untrue. Burnham should have said, "We're not quite sure what our estimate means. Assuming our model is accurate, the actual death toll might be 100,000, or it might be somewhere between 92,000 lower and 94,000 higher than that number."

    Not a meaty headline, but truer to the findings of his own study.

    Here's how the Johns Hopkins team—which, for the record, was led by Dr. Les Roberts of the university's Bloomberg School of Public Health—went about its work. They randomly selected 33 neighborhoods across Iraq—equal-sized population "clusters"—and, this past September, set out to interview 30 households in each. They asked how many people in each household died, of what causes, during the 14 months before the U.S. invasion—and how many died, of what, in the 17 months since the war began. They then took the results of their random sample and extrapolated them to the entire country, assuming that their 33 clusters were perfectly representative of all Iraq.

    This is a time-honored technique for many epidemiological studies, but those conducting them have to take great care that the way they select the neighborhoods is truly random (which, as most poll-watchers of any sort know, is difficult under the easiest of circumstances). There's a further complication when studying the results of war, especially a war fought mainly by precision bombs dropped from the air: The damage is not randomly distributed; it's very heavily concentrated in a few areas.

    The Johns Hopkins team had to confront this problem. One of the 33 clusters they selected happened to be in Fallujah, one of the most heavily bombed and shelled cities in all Iraq. Was it legitimate to extrapolate from a sample that included such an extreme case? More awkward yet, it turned out, two-thirds of all the violent deaths that the team recorded took place in the Fallujah cluster. They settled the dilemma by issuing two sets of figures—one with Fallujah, the other without. The estimate of 98,000 deaths is the extrapolation from the set that does not include Fallujah. What's the extrapolation for the set that does include Fallujah? They don't exactly say. Fallujah was nearly unique; it's impossible to figure out how to extrapolate from it. A question does arise, though: Is this difficulty a result of some peculiarity about the fighting in Fallujah? Or is it a result of some peculiarity in the survey's methodology?

    There were other problems. The survey team simply could not visit some of the randomly chosen clusters; the roads were blocked off, in some cases by coalition checkpoints. So the team picked other, more accessible areas that had received similar amounts of damage. But it's unclear how they made this calculation. In any case, the detour destroyed the survey's randomness; the results are inherently tainted. In other cases, the team didn't find enough people in a cluster to interview, so they expanded the survey to an adjoining cluster. Again, at that point, the survey was no longer random, and so the results are suspect.

    Beth Osborne Daponte, senior research scholar at Yale University's Institution for Social and Policy Studies, put the point diplomatically after reading the Lancet article this morning and discussing it with me in a phone conversation: "It attests to the difficulty of doing this sort of survey work during a war. … No one can come up with any credible estimates yet, at least not through the sorts of methods used here."

    The study, though, does have a fundamental flaw that has nothing to do with the limits imposed by wartime—and this flaw suggests that, within the study's wide range of possible casualty estimates, the real number tends more toward the lower end of the scale. In order to gauge the risk of death brought on by the war, the researchers first had to measure the risk of death in Iraq before the war. Based on their survey of how many people in the sampled households died before the war, they calculated that the mortality rate in prewar Iraq was 5 deaths per 1,000 people per year. The mortality rate after the war started—not including Fallujah—was 7.9 deaths per 1,000 people per year. In short, the risk of death in Iraq since the war is 58 percent higher (7.9 divided by 5 = 1.58) than it was before the war.

    But there are two problems with this calculation. First, Daponte (who has studied Iraqi population figures for many years) questions the finding that prewar mortality was 5 deaths per 1,000. According to quite comprehensive data collected by the United Nations, Iraq's mortality rate from 1980-85 was 8.1 per 1,000. From 1985-90, the years leading up to the 1991 Gulf War, the rate declined to 6.8 per 1,000. After '91, the numbers are murkier, but clearly they went up. Whatever they were in 2002, they were almost certainly higher than 5 per 1,000. In other words, the wartime mortality rate—if it is 7.9 per 1,000—probably does not exceed the peacetime rate by as much as the Johns Hopkins team assumes.

    The second problem with the calculation goes back to the problem cited at the top of this article—the margin of error. Here is the relevant passage from the study: "The risk of death is 1.5-fold (1.1 – 2.3) higher after the invasion." Those mysterious numbers in the parentheses mean the authors are 95 percent confident that the risk of death now is between 1.1 and 2.3 times higher than it was before the invasion—in other words, as little as 10 percent higher or as much as 130 percent higher. Again, the math is too vague to be useful.

    There is one group out there counting civilian casualties in a way that's tangible, specific, and very useful—a team of mainly British researchers, led by Hamit Dardagan and John Sloboda, called Iraq Body Count. They have kept a running total of civilian deaths, derived entirely from press reports. Their count is triple fact-checked; their database is itemized and fastidiously sourced; and they take great pains to separate civilian from combatant casualties (for instance, last Tuesday, the group released a report estimating that, of the 800 Iraqis killed in last April's siege of Fallujah, 572 to 616 of them were civilians, at least 308 of them women and children).

    The IBC estimates that between 14,181 and 16,312 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war—about half of them since the battlefield phase of the war ended last May. The group also notes that these figures are probably on the low side, since some deaths must have taken place outside the media's purview.

    So, let's call it 15,000 or—allowing for deaths that the press didn't report—20,000 or 25,000, maybe 30,000 Iraqi civilians killed in a pre-emptive war waged (according to the latest rationale) on their behalf. That's a number more solidly rooted in reality than the Hopkins figure—and, given that fact, no less shocking.
    link

    It's telling that in their newest study they still choose to perpetuate their clearly innacurate figures from their last attempt. These people should be drummed out of their field for perpetuating this nonsense- As I posted earlier, for their latest figures to be accurate their would had to have 1000 Iraqi deaths per day for the first half of 2006, with the actual number reported being only 1/10th of that. That's right- it would mean that only 1 out of every 10 deaths would be reported in any way... that's looney. Even Human Rights Watch disputed their earlier study.

    These cluster surveys are difficult to get right under the most idea circumstances, let alone in the fog of war. However, I dont think the people peddling this survey are interested in accuracy- they're interested in headlines and in pushing their political agenda- as they've stated openly.

    What's the saying? Lies, damned lies, and statistics?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-19-2006 at 09:34.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    I wonder if this debate on the accuracy of figures would have been better informed if the occupying powers had bothered to collate and publish accurate figures of civilian deaths right from the start?

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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Ah, so there's no scientific criticism because it is so horribly wrong? And here I've been trained to believe academics like nothing more than to pounce on rivals who publish poor work and gut them like fish. I'm serious here, academics are ruthless when it comes to shredding those who produce sloppy research.

    Like all statisics, this study has a margin of error too as is clearly stated in the publication. STATS paraphrases this to:

    Thus, 650,000 deaths is only an estimate; the range of possible deaths is actually 392,979 to 942,636. What this means is that we can be 95 percent certain that the number of excess deaths is in this range, but our best estimate is 654,965. You can think of this as a bell curve, centered 654,965 where the curve is highest. The other values in the range are less likely than to be the “true value” though not as much less likely as a number outside the range.
    and New Zealand.

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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Here, I found someone who took the time to debunk their latest sham. 655,000 War Dead? A bogus study on Iraq casualties.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    BY STEVEN E. MOORE
    Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

    After doing survey research in Iraq for nearly two years, I was surprised to read that a study by a group from Johns Hopkins University claims that 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the war. Don't get me wrong, there have been far too many deaths in Iraq by anyone's measure; some of them have been friends of mine. But the Johns Hopkins tally is wildly at odds with any numbers I have seen in that country. Survey results frequently have a margin of error of plus or minus 3% or 5%--not 1200%.

    The group--associated with the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health--employed cluster sampling for in-person interviews, which is the methodology that I and most researchers use in developing countries. Here, in the U.S., opinion surveys often use telephone polls, selecting individuals at random. But for a country lacking in telephone penetration, door-to-door interviews are required: Neighborhoods are selected at random, and then individuals are selected at random in "clusters" within each neighborhood for door-to-door interviews. Without cluster sampling, the expense and time associated with travel would make in-person interviewing virtually impossible.

    However, the key to the validity of cluster sampling is to use enough cluster points. In their 2006 report, "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional sample survey," the Johns Hopkins team says it used 47 cluster points for their sample of 1,849 interviews. This is astonishing: I wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points.

    Neither would anyone else. For its 2004 survey of Iraq, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) used 2,200 cluster points of 10 interviews each for a total sample of 21,688. True, interviews are expensive and not everyone has the U.N.'s bank account. However, even for a similarly sized sample, that is an extraordinarily small number of cluster points. A 2005 survey conducted by ABC News, Time magazine, the BBC, NHK and Der Spiegel used 135 cluster points with a sample size of 1,711--almost three times that of the Johns Hopkins team for 93% of the sample size.

    What happens when you don't use enough cluster points in a survey? You get crazy results when compared to a known quantity, or a survey with more cluster points. There was a perfect example of this two years ago. The UNDP's survey, in April and May 2004, estimated between 18,000 and 29,000 Iraqi civilian deaths due to the war. This survey was conducted four months prior to another, earlier study by the Johns Hopkins team, which used 33 cluster points and estimated between 69,000 and 155,000 civilian deaths--four to five times as high as the UNDP survey, which used 66 times the cluster points.

    The 2004 survey by the Johns Hopkins group was itself methodologically suspect--and the one they just published even more so.

    Curious about the kind of people who would have the chutzpah to claim to a national audience that this kind of research was methodologically sound, I contacted Johns Hopkins University and was referred to Les Roberts, one of the primary authors of the study. Dr. Roberts defended his 47 cluster points, saying that this was standard. I'm not sure whose standards these are.

    Appendix A of the Johns Hopkins survey, for example, cites several other studies of mortality in war zones, and uses the citations to validate the group's use of cluster sampling. One study is by the International Rescue Committee in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which used 750 cluster points. Harvard's School of Public Health, in a 1992 survey of Iraq, used 271 cluster points. Another study in Kosovo cites the use of 50 cluster points, but this was for a population of just 1.6 million, compared to Iraq's 27 million.

    When I pointed out these numbers to Dr. Roberts, he said that the appendices were written by a student and should be ignored. Which led me to wonder what other sections of the survey should be ignored.

    With so few cluster points, it is highly unlikely the Johns Hopkins survey is representative of the population in Iraq. However, there is a definitive method of establishing if it is. Recording the gender, age, education and other demographic characteristics of the respondents allows a researcher to compare his survey results to a known demographic instrument, such as a census.

    Dr. Roberts said that his team's surveyors did not ask demographic questions. I was so surprised to hear this that I emailed him later in the day to ask a second time if his team asked demographic questions and compared the results to the 1997 Iraqi census. Dr. Roberts replied that he had not even looked at the Iraqi census.

    And so, while the gender and the age of the deceased were recorded in the 2006 Johns Hopkins study, nobody, according to Dr. Roberts, recorded demographic information for the living survey respondents. This would be the first survey I have looked at in my 15 years of looking that did not ask demographic questions of its respondents. But don't take my word for it--try using Google to find a survey that does not ask demographic questions.

    Without demographic information to assure a representative sample, there is no way anyone can prove--or disprove--that the Johns Hopkins estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths is accurate.

    Public-policy decisions based on this survey will impact millions of Iraqis and hundreds of thousands of Americans. It's important that voters and policy makers have accurate information. When the question matters this much, it is worth taking the time to get the answer right.

    Mr. Moore, a political consultant with Gorton Moore International, trained Iraqi researchers for the International Republican Institute from 2003 to 2004 and conducted survey research for the Coalition Forces from 2005 to 2006.

    Their methods are truly indefensible.
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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    It's wonderful to see our efforts to bring peace, stability and democracy to the region have paid off so well.

    I can see why Iran is so keen to get nuclear weapons and put itself beyond attack. It's really not the sign of a madman if this happened in Iraq.

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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
    Ah, so there's no scientific criticism because it is so horribly wrong? And here I've been trained to believe academics like nothing more than to pounce on rivals who publish poor work and gut them like fish. I'm serious here, academics are ruthless when it comes to shredding those who produce sloppy research.

    Like all statisics, this study has a margin of error too as is clearly stated in the publication. STATS paraphrases this to:
    The study is flawed.

    finds the study estimating 650,000 excess Iraqi casualties since American forces entered the country to be methodologically sound.:Heart disease/stroke 1 (2%) 15 (6%) 11 (20%) 74 (54%) 102 (19%)
    It includes all deaths, not casualties.

    In a careful study published in the Lancet, a prestigious British journal for medicine, professors from Johns Hopkins University and the School of Medicine at Al Mustansirlya Univesity in Baghdad found through a random sampling of Iraqi households that over 650,000 deaths have occurred in Iraq since the invasion in 2003, that would not have occurred had there not been war : Old age NA NA NA 19 (14%) 19 (4%)
    The study is hugely biased.

    The error coming from the use of statistics is found in the confidence interval. In the case of the Iraqi deaths study, the confidence interval for the number of excess deaths is 392,979 to 942,636 people. What this means is that, if the survey were conducted again, we could be 95 percent confident that the excess deaths would fall in this range again. : Cancer 1 (2%) 5 (2%) 14 (26%) 11 (8%) 33 (6%)
    They have artificially inflated their study so as to get a huge number. While still claiming this study is about how many "extra" deaths have occured. The study has a huge bias and the remainder of it including how the interviews were conducted and how and were the houses were randomly sampled from are in question. As for their range, the possible difference is a massive 549,657, thats more then thier most conservative guess. I do not question the science, infact I am more then 100% certain that in the past 4 years at least 650,000 Iraqi's have died. Infact that number is not at all shocking, its reaslistic, if not a bit conservative. The fact of the matter is that the study claims to be a study about how many people have died becuase of the war. Not a study about how many people have died in Iraq in the past 4 years.

    They have blatently infalted their numbers and tryed to hide the fact that they did it by saying people are attacking the science. Come on, nuff said they've already admitted to doing it.
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Here, I found someone who took the time to debunk their latest sham. 655,000 War Dead? A bogus study on Iraq casualties.
    Their methods are truly indefensible.
    Mr. Moore, a political consultant with Gorton Moore International, trained Iraqi researchers for the International Republican Institute from 2003 to 2004 and conducted survey research for the Coalition Forces from 2005 to 2006
    And that particular source could be considered non-partisan neverlone un-biased? The guy is a spin doctor by trade! Just check out his company's website: http://www.gortonmoore.com/
    Last edited by IRONxMortlock; 10-19-2006 at 10:13.
    and New Zealand.

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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    The study is flawed.
    I love comments like that. Usually come from creationists and in a different context though.

    It includes all deaths, not casualties.
    It includes all the extra deaths caused by the removal of Saddamn Hussein, so same thing surely? Dying by being shot or dying because there is no clean water leaves you equally dead.

    The study is hugely biased.
    Really? How so?

    They have artificially inflated their study so as to get a huge number.
    How so again? You have alreayd claimed bias.

    ...the possible difference is a massive 549,657...
    I agree, always a little dubious of stats with a margin of error that huge.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
    And that particular source could be considered non-partisan neverlone un-biased? The guy is a spin doctor by trade! Just check out his companies website: http://www.gortonmoore.com/
    Yeah, he spent years conducting surveys in Iraq- he wouldnt know what the hell he's talking about.

    So he's biased? Show me the bias in what he had to say then. Was the sample size appallingly low? Yep. For their 2004 study, the UN used a sample size that was 66x larger than the one done by these hacks. Yet, you choose to believe their study's results over one that was done using a much larger sample? Why, because it fits within your already entrenched conclusions? Does every other organization say these numbers are way too high? Yup, yet you still believe....

    Let's see, they released their last study just in time for the 2004 election. Now they release this one for the express purpose of having an impact on the 2006 election, yet you think their motives are somehow above reproach? Their previous study (as with this one) was completely out of line with every other number put forth- including Human Rights Watch, including IBC, including a UN study using the same methodology but with a more reliable sample size!

    Their studies- both of them- are statistically worthless.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-19-2006 at 10:22.
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    It includes all deaths, not casualties.
    Yes, but you're only looking at the table 2. and not reading the full report nor seeing the point of the study. It's attempting to show the difference between the mortality rate post-invasion to pre-invasion.

    Directly from the study:
    We estimated the numbers of excess
    deaths (attributable rates) by subtraction of the predicted
    values for the pre-war mortality rates from the post-war
    mortality rates in the three post-invasion periods.
    and New Zealand.

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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONxMortlock
    Yes, but you're only looking at the table 2. and not reading the full report nor seeing the point of the study. It's attempting to show the difference between the mortality rate post-invasion to pre-invasion.

    Directly from the study:
    Well bless your heart. I would have never been able to figure out what those x's and 1's meant. Wow only 2 deaths in Iraq related to violence when Sadam was in power. That must be the most in depth, documented piece of well founded science around.
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Yeah, he spent years conducting surveys in Iraq- he wouldnt know what the hell he's talking about.
    His company makes propaganda for the highest bidder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    So he's biased? Show me the bias in what he had to say then. Was the sample size appallingly low? Yep. For their 2004 study, the UN used a sample size that was 66x larger than the one done by these hacks. Yet, you choose to believe their study's results over one that was done using a much larger sample? Why, because it fits within your already entrenched conclusions? Does every other organization say these numbers are way too high? Yup, yet you still believe....
    The study clearly shows its margin of error, which is extremely high. Obviously higher than those with larger sample sizes. None the less, even at the lowest possible estimate of casualities it is still a far larger number than previously reported and thus I believe it is a significant report.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Let's see, they released their last study just in time for the 2004 election. Now they release this one for the express purpose of having an impact on the 2006 election, yet you think their motives are somehow above reproach?
    I agree with you Xiahou that the timing of Lancet study definitely casts a shadow over it and brings the researchers' political objectivity into question and thus compromises the integrity of the study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Their previous study (as with this one) was completely out of line with every other number put forth- including Human Rights Watch, including IBC, including a UN study using the same methodology but with a more reliable sample size!
    Did the 2004 UN survey address the same criteria as study? I really don't know. I just figured that if it did the numbers would have been quoted in Moore's article.
    and New Zealand.

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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex
    Well bless your heart. I would have never been able to figure out what those x's and 1's meant. Wow only 2 deaths in Iraq related to violence when Sadam was in power. That must be the most in depth, documented piece of well founded science around.
    Ummm,

    That figure is the extrapolated number thus not the total number. It is the number of violent deaths reported by the sample population. (I think, I'm no expert at this stuff either)
    Last edited by IRONxMortlock; 10-19-2006 at 11:00.
    and New Zealand.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Study of Iraqi Dead Shocking, But Sound Science

    Interestingly enough, some more digging has revealed that Les Roberts actually ran for Congress as a Democrat this year before dropping out of the primary to support his fellow party member.

    "Michael Arcuri is a strong candidate, and I came to the realization that my staying in the race would only make it more difficult for him to win in November," Roberts said Wednesday morning. "I think it’s critically important that we elect a Democrat and that Democrats take control of the House of Representatives."
    link

    And here's a video of Lancet editor Richard Horton spewing propaganda at a recent anti-war rally.
    "As this axis of Anglo-American imperialism extends its influence through war and conquest, gathering power and wealth as it goes, so millions of people are left to die in poverty and disease."
    Now both of these people are entitled to their views- but I for one think it's shameful that they'll use shaky statistics and leverage the name of a (formerly?) respectable publication to push their agenda. Way to compromise it's integrity mate.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 10-19-2006 at 11:13.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

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