Place of Orthodox Christianity in all this?

[Comrade Alexeo]

I've had this thought:

Catholic factions get to have all sorts of fun with the political machinations involving the Pope, and get to go on crusades

Muslim factions get to go on jihads

Pagan and heretic factions will see war constantly, and in any case will probably be pretty rarely seen.


That leaves the Orthodox factions. So far as I've been able to figure out, they cannot go on crusade and have no other similar "extra stuff." Is their existence solely predicated to being effectively a buffer between the Catholics and Muslims? While this will certainly offer intriguing gameplay in and of itself, it seems to pale in comparison to making deals about getting your cardinal elected Pope, and then promptly excommunicating everyone or going on a Crusade or whatever.

Ignoring historical interest in the Russians or the Byzantines and whoever else is Orthodox, why, exactly, would anyone want to play them?

[Kavhan Isbul]

Well, I would play the Byzantines first out of all factions (and mod the game if this is necessary), mainly for historical reasons, but also because I enjoy attacking whomever I want whenever I want without the Pope having any say in this matter. And I also like the fact that unlike some other Christians, I cannot get excommunicated. But what I really like with the Byzantines is their unique troop roster and position on the map - I get to choose whether I want to fight Pagans, Muslims, Catholics or other Orthodox christians (or maybe all of the above at the same time). And who cares about the Pope, a heretic in your eyes since 1054, when you have the most influential monarch and the greatest generals, leading armies of elite, superbly ecquipped and disciplinned soldiers?
Besides, in terms of gameplay, in MTW I found small Catholic factions which could not crusade, such as the Poles or the Danes much more enjoyable than the HRE or the French. We will see if thias is the case in M2TW.

[BDC]

In MTW, I always found that by the point I could crusade I'd already become so powerful as to render it fairly pointless... Hopefully it won't be the same here.

[DukeofSerbia]

That leaves the Orthodox factions. So far as I've been able to figure out, they cannot go on crusade and have no other similar "extra stuff." Is their existence solely predicated to being effectively a buffer between the Catholics and Muslims? While this will certainly offer intriguing gameplay in and of itself, it seems to pale in comparison to making deals about getting your cardinal elected Pope, and then promptly excommunicating everyone or going on a Crusade or whatever.

Ignoring historical interest in the Russians or the Byzantines and whoever else is Orthodox, why, exactly, would anyone want to play them?

And what is your point, anyway?

Playing with so called "Byzantium Empire" is always interesting.

[Guillaume le Batard]

That leaves the Orthodox factions. So far as I've been able to figure out, they cannot go on crusade and have no other similar "extra stuff." Is their existence solely predicated to being effectively a buffer between the Catholics and Muslims? While this will certainly offer intriguing gameplay in and of itself, it seems to pale in comparison to making deals about getting your cardinal elected Pope, and then promptly excommunicating everyone or going on a Crusade or whatever.

Ignoring historical interest in the Russians or the Byzantines and whoever else is Orthodox, why, exactly, would anyone want to play them?

Don't forget that there are reportedly missions of varying types from varying sources for every faction. So the Byzantines will have "extras," of a sort. Also, the Byzantine player is in a position to potentially receive visits from both the Mongols *and* the Timurids in the same game (so long as CA gives 'em some muscle).

CA certainly could have added a pope-like Patriarchate of Constantinople to dictate the Church's wishes, but with only two Orthodox factions (one of which split from the Church during the games' timeframe), what's the point?

Because there seems to be no historical basis for any sort of jihad or crusade type function in the Orthodox kingdoms/empires, what could CA do, make something up?

And without that function, I could see the addition of a Patriarchate simply becoming another layer of institutional mission-giving. Maybe a little more interesting for immersion's sake, but not the dynamic institution the papacy is, in the game.

Yet the Byzantines are one of the most (if not the most) popular factions in the game. Why? Because judging from MTW1, they have interesting troops types, an interesting starting position, a good economy, and a dedicated enemy (in more ways than one!). Plus the limited number of orthodox factions makes it more challenging to conquer with them, because of the constant culture penalty you face.

It sounds like you might be happier playing a Catholic faction!

Guillaume

[Polemists]

I agree Orthodox has it's own fun as others have stated. You need only watch the byzantine or russia ign video to realize they are unique and cool in there own right. The mongol issue is there, politics is unique and like others have said it allows a "go your own way" kinda faction. Yes you still have missions and probably a council of nobles but you don't have the pope which will dominate most catholic factions and your try to get your muslim speaker(forgot his name) enough peity to launch a jihad. It's more of a you choose where and when to strike type of deal which many people like.

Byzantines get lots of people to fight, of course I would not recommend asking for military aid from pope urban, we all know how that turned out

I think orthodox are unique and fun in there own right.:)

[metatron]

Playing as the Romans shouldn't exclude you from the rest of Christianity. Both Constantiople and Rome to this day view each other as brothers, just in schism.

Granted, there are cultural penalties that shouldn't be denied, but MTW oversimplified them. A conquering Teutonic army wasn't always greeted with enthusiasm just because they said the same prayers as their subjects.

Besides, excommunication is merely the prohibition of recieving the sacraments by an individual. An excommunicated leader should anger his subjects, but not leave his nation open to invasion by their fellow Christians.

The Crusaders of 1204 viewed their orders with much suspicion, attacking fellow Christians, even different Christians was a very low thing in many people's eyes. The troops only accepted the order under the pretenses that they were restoring an Emperor to the throne, and yet they were all still excommunicated when the Pope learned of what they'd done.

There should be several options available to the Pope, such as labeling certain areas or individuals as heretics, or imposing an interdict (essentially, the excommunication of an ecclesiastical province), which was often a tool of the Pontif in curbing unruly leaders.

Byzantium should be able to rejoin the western church, but that this should cause significant unrest among their orthodox faithful (as which happened historically). Reunification should also give the Emperor a number of unique tools, as the Church always granted the office a special position within it's hierarchy (such as the ability to call councils).

[Kralizec]

CA certainly could have added a pope-like Patriarchate of Constantinople to dictate the Church's wishes

The Patriarch of Constantinople didn't have quite the same status as the Pope in his church. Religion was practicly a branch of government in Byzantium. In the final days before the fall of Constantinople, Emperor Constantine XI made a deal with the Pope to bring the churches back together (didn't take off though partially because of Ottoman interference after the fall). The decision was his, not that of the Patriarch.

[Comrade Alexeo]

Hmmmm... I think some of you are not entirely getting my point.


I certainly plan on playing the Byzantine and Russian factions - the former because I am fascinated with this last vestige of the Roman Empire, the latter because my family originally comes from Russia and I must reclaim my birthright

(Actually I'm rather distressed about M2TW - I find myself wanting to do a HRE campaign, a Byzantine campaign, a Muslim campaign, a Russian campaign, and Scottish campaign all at the same time! )



What I'm asking is what is the incentive to the average gamer, who has no real emotional investment in any faction or idealogy, to go and play the Orthodox factions? The lack of other things to do besides rape and pillage might see the replayability of the Russians and the Byzantines suffer, for example...

[DisruptorX]

What I'm asking is what is the incentive to the average gamer, who has no real emotional investment in any faction or idealogy, to go and play the Orthodox factions? The lack of other things to do besides rape and pillage might see the replayability of the Russians and the Byzantines suffer, for example...

The Russians were one of the must challenging and fun factions in MTW 1, I'm sure they'll be the same in 2. There's plenty of reason to play an orthodox faction, it lets you build your empire in peace, without the pope getting in your face all the time.

Variety.

[Basilios II Voulgaroktonos]

i agree that the patriarch of Constantinople was not as strong as the pope and for that there is not any dought but thats not a reason for him not to exist...but the thing that you cant do crussades,you dont have the pope above your head is a unique element of the orthodox factions because the western kingdoms on their way to take the riches of the east and restore the cristianity in the holy land the have you in the middle and the same is for the muslims if they want to do a jihad.so the Byzantine empire is more chalenging for me than the western or muslim factions because its far more dificcult to survive and of course because its the continuer of the roman empire with greek domination.also the russians have the unique oppurtunity of being attack by the mongols first of all and that must not be seen as a disadvantage because if you dont like to war...dont play this game

[Guillaume le Batard]

The Patriarch of Constantinople didn't have quite the same status as the Pope in his church. Religion was practicly a branch of government in Byzantium. In the final days before the fall of Constantinople, Emperor Constantine XI made a deal with the Pope to bring the churches back together (didn't take off though partially because of Ottoman interference after the fall). The decision was his, not that of the Patriarch.

I realize that. I'm simply addressing Comrade Alexeo's observation that there isn't a unique religious function tied to the Orthodox factions, and brainstorming as to what CA could have done to approximate something along those lines.

Actually I'm rather distressed about M2TW - I find myself wanting to do a HRE campaign, a Byzantine campaign, a Muslim campaign, a Russian campaign, and Scottish campaign all at the same time! )

I can sympathize with you there, Comrade. Turks, Byzantines, Moores, and Scots, what to do? .

]What I'm asking is what is the incentive to the average gamer, who has no real emotional investment in any faction or idealogy, to go and play the Orthodox factions? The lack of other things to do besides rape and pillage might see the replayability of the Russians and the Byzantines suffer, for example...

It's my perspective that the aspects of the game dealing with missions and the Pope are probably not the primary attraction for the majority of Total War Heads out there. Many find them a bit of a nuisance.

Building an economy, raising troops, smiting enemies, & and conquering land: that's why people play. The things I mentioned in my previous post regarding the Byzantine and Russian starting locations, various interesting troop types, etc. are what I believe make them popular factions --and are the things that really matter most to people who have actually played a game in the series previously.

Cheers,

Guillaume

[Bob the Insane]

Pagan and heretic factions will see war constantly, and in any case will probably be pretty rarely seen.

The OP did miss a point here at least with the term Heretic. In game this has a pretty specific meaning. It is the spread of heretical ideas and the spliting from organised religion in all the main religions in the game (in theory a pagan faction can suffer from Heresy too). Or more spfically it will cause a negative penalty to public order (just like a significant presence of any religion other than your own) and if it grows sufficiently then it will spawn heretic agents on the maps whom will increase the conversion of your people to heretic ways and thus more penalties to public order.

The spead of heresy will likely affect Muslim, Orthodox and Pagan factions equally. The Catholics will also have the additional worry of the Pope sending in the Inquisition if Heresy spreads too much in their lands...

It is interests how the game differentiates people between other organised religions being spread in your lands and heresy, it is very politically correct... :D

[Zenicetus]

What I'm asking is what is the incentive to the average gamer, who has no real emotional investment in any faction or idealogy, to go and play the Orthodox factions? The lack of other things to do besides rape and pillage might see the replayability of the Russians and the Byzantines suffer, for example...

Well, speaking as an average gamer, or more specifically an American with family history that meanders back through England and Scotland but it a long time ago... and no religious ties either... I don't really have a strong identification with any faction. If I identified with geography instead of genetics, I'd have to play the Aztecs. Except of course they're not a starting faction.

Anyway, the Orthodox factions look attractive for a first exposure to the game, because they're more streamlined. I'm not sure I want to deal with pleasing the Pope or other religious maneuvering. Reminds of the pain-in-the-neck Senate missions in RTW. I'll try that in later campaigns, after I'm more comfortable with the game. For the first campaign I just want to burn, pillage, and conquer with minimal distractions. Then I'll probably do an Islamic campaign or two, and save the factions that deal with the Pope for later, when I'm looking to spice up the game with something new.

[4th Dimension]

Also as Ortodox (or as Muslim, but as Ortodox he's closer) you get unique oportunity to take out all rage the pope bilt up in you by his stupid missions on him.

[SCRIBE]

As playing the Byzantines, historically their an interesting bygone people, and as what many people have already said, they have an interesting unit roster, and so on and so forth, and also you can reclaim all the former Roman territories that the now established barbarians have taken.

I'd like to backhand the Pope without him getting his face up all in my business.
And I'd like to get back at the Conquistadors for all the turmoil that they've cause around the world. Payback's a eh!

I'm not an Orthodox Christian, I really don't have any connections with any Catholic factions, maybe Spain or England, but I am attracted to a faction whose history interests me, i.e. Eastern Roman Empire, the Mongols and Timurids and now the Scots.

[scourgeofrome]

I'd like to backhand the Pope without him getting his face up all in my business.

The Pope was just about the ONLY thing I hated about Catholic factions in MTW. Playing as the Orthodox factions (Islamic too) was a relief compared to being the Catholic factions.Oh, sweet freedom to conquer all.

[BaldwinIV]

IMO Orthodox can't go on a crusade but they'll receive missions from the senate or merchants' guild like the catholic factions...

[Basilios II Voulgaroktonos]

The Pope was just about the ONLY thing I hated about Catholic factions in MTW. Playing as the Orthodox factions (Islamic too) was a relief compared to being the Catholic factions.Oh, sweet freedom to conquer all.

Thats not a relief because playing as an orthodox faction in the start you were fine but after if the pope excomunicated you,you had problems from all western europe and i was attacked by several crusades in my regions with the target to take Constantinople!!!

[darsalon]

Thats not a relief because playing as an orthodox faction in the start you were fine but after if the pope excomunicated you,you had problems from all western europe and i was attacked by several crusades in my regions with the target to take Constantinople!!!

Tended to happen when they got jealous of you and wanted the excuse to bleed you for cash. I quite liked it as I got the chance to mow down peasants with my kataphraktoi

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

Thats not a relief because playing as an orthodox faction in the start you were fine but after if the pope excomunicated you,you had problems from all western europe and i was attacked by several crusades in my regions with the target to take Constantinople!!!

The pope cannot excomunicate you but the catholic factions fought a lot with the orthodox factions.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Another great thing about the Orthodox, apart from the fact that the Pope cannot meddle in their foreign policy, is the fact that their superb 9-star generals are immune to inquisitors, I believe. At least, when I play with a catholic faction I cannot use my inquisitors and grand inquisitors on the Byzantine jedi generals, so I assume that the AI cannot do it either. And playing with the Orthodox I did not mind any crusades, because the Pope only requests them when I have become too big and threaten to get 60% of the map, and by this time I am usually way too powerful for any crusade to stand even the slightest chance of success, while defeating it usually ensured a civil war in the faction that made the mistake of sending it.
If the Byzantines have a downside, for me it is that they were too powerful in early in MTW, which evetually made playing with them a bit dull. As there are no later periods in M2TW, I am afraid that if they are made as powerful as they were in MTW - 9-star generals, superb heirs, unstoppable katanks and variangian guardsmen supported by outstanding archers and other infantry, and all this combined with the above mentioned advantages where the Pope and the inquisition are concerned, will make winning with them too easy and quick.

[Zenicetus]

If the Byzantines have a downside, for me it is that they were too powerful in early in MTW, which evetually made playing with them a bit dull. As there are no later periods in M2TW, I am afraid that if they are made as powerful as they were in MTW - 9-star generals, superb heirs, unstoppable katanks and variangian guardsmen supported by outstanding archers and other infantry, and all this combined with the above mentioned advantages where the Pope and the inquisition are concerned, will make winning with them too easy and quick.

Two thoughts about that (and take it with a grain of salt because I never played MTW)....

First, it's not a bad thing to have at least one "easy" faction in the game for beginners to get their feet wet. It would be sort of like the Brutii in RTW... hard to lose, with their economic advantage from locking up the eastern Med and the riches of Egypt. The Sassanids in RTW/BI were another easy/powerful faction. They were a good intro to BI without having to deal with Horde issues right away (as long as you protect the northern borders while crushing the ERE).

Second, the Byzantines have to deal with potential threats from multiple directions, which might be tougher than a faction that has its back up against a nice safe corner of the map (England, for example, or the Sassanids in BI). Especially if the campaign AI has been smartened up.