The Godfather, Part 2 [Concluded]

[GeneralHankerchief]

Waitwaitwait a minute. You're trying to say that the fact that I didn't post before I went to watch TV is enough to lynch me? Come on, dude.

That post does not address my defense.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Waitwaitwait a minute. You're trying to say that the fact that I didn't post before I went to watch TV is enough to lynch me? Come on, dude.

That post does not address my defense.

Which defense oic. With limited time I wanted to do more than address one petty post, I had the whole thread to go through and many arguments to bring. The point is I was actually posting, not watching in waiting, which is what you don't seem to get.

Did you not read my previous post? You are attempting to focus in on one tiny part of my argument against you, and pretending it's my entire argument.

I've even said Myrddraal is more likely than you. Crazed Rabbit, Myrddraal and Don seem the most likely.

[GeneralHankerchief]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=396

If you had the whole thread to go through, surely you didn't miss this one where I clearly responded, but yet still managed to post where we just silently kept our vote, not responding.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You aren't even reading my posts anymore...

[GeneralHankerchief]

How? I'm addressing everything.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No you're not. You are trying to distract people from the arguments laid out previously. Too bad, I'm reposting it:

(didn't copy quotes)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, since you never responded to mine, which was posted first, why don't you go ahead?

[Don Corleone]

Sasaki, your theory has one big hole in it. Doing the math, to nail everyone that suspected you, you've pointed to Mydraal, GeneralHank, Crazed Rabbit, possibly Sigurd and myself. That's 1 1/2 too many. I'm pretty sure we got one this time folks.

I felt pretty strongly about Sasaki last time. I have no clear where to go from here, as I stumbled on him.

Don't worry about lynching me this round, I won't be around that long. Saski's coworker is going to give me some payback.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

@GeneralH: could you make it more obvious you can't refute my argument? Actually this one goes for Don as well. I did respond to your argument.

And Don, I said I'm not sure which of the 4 of you are mafia. You are all very suspicious. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Oh, and for laughs, here's this quote again:

Kinda goes without saying that I'm pretty damned sure that you're not mafia.

[Myrddraal]

Well well well...

I'm surprised Sasaki got lynched. After all, wasn't I the first person to vote for him this round, and that vote was pure retaliation for his 'discussion provoking' post.

However suspicious this will make me seem to all the people convinced of Sasaki's guilt, I think we made a mistake... I should have voted, as they say: an abstention is a vote for the extreme party.

However, more importantly, we've been derailed. The deductive train of thought that was going on has been lost somewhere a few pages back (or at least, my train of thought has).

Sasaki, you made some points about my own suspiciousness. My answers are in a spoil tag. The reason for this is that we've been derailed enough by this Sasaki affair already. We need to focus on the next lynch, however I can't leave these things unsaid:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'd like to answer them, even if I can't answer them very well.

GeneralH then starts to try and get clues from the mafia kills (the kind of clues that the mafia always plant) and his suspicion list points to (surprise) Myself, Divine Wind, and Ignoramus. Myrddraal agrees with him which is one of the reasons he's on my list.

Well it's true I sort of agreed with him. FYI, here is my post on the matter:

Argh this reminds me of the last (and only) game I played in. There's so little info to go by As far as I can tell, the only info we have is that Lemur has some past experience of being targeted by people.

This really isn't enough to go by, but it's all I've got. Sorry folks, but you're all moving a (small) step up on my suspiciousness list.

I hardly agree at all. It was all we had to go by at the time, so it's all I could do. I decided at the beginning of this game to try to publicly analyse everything that's said. Keeping suspicions or oppinions on others suspicions private can only help the mafia (which is why I find the sudden appearance of your list of suspicions, just as you're attacked, quite suspicious itself).

Then comes the mangled kill posting by Silver. Don, Crazed Rabbit, and Myrddraal are all confused by this. From past games I think we can see that the mafia are likely to comment in this situation.

What can I say. In the last and only game I played I did this kind of stuff too. I'm afraid I don't really consider what people will think of what I say, I try to be as open as possible.

Of course, if I was mafia, I'd be saying exactly the same thing. I can't defend that point with anything more than saying I was more confused by the contradicting posts following silvers post than by SR's post itself.

Myrddraal votes for Kommodus while questioning those who vote for Kommodus

Well that's simply a lie. I voted for Kommodus after the evidence against him had been publicly posted. I then stated that I was suspicious of those who had voted for him without evidence.

I call Myrddraal on his post and he quickly votes me. Notice that he unvotes don and votes me while saying "anyway, what's wrong with my logic? I've tried to consider everything, what have I missed? " So he thinks his logic voting for Don is good but he unvotes him?

Now that is weak Sasaki. You know exactly what went on with that sequence of posts, and it wasn't what you just wrote there. This is what happened (anyone feel free to go and check).

I posted a lengthy post which contained all the suspicions I had in my mind at the time. This included amongst other things an analysis of the previous accusations of Don C as I saw them. I said in that post that the latest evidence individually was very weak, but since there had several other suspicious things (especially his early behavior) he was highest on my suspicious list, and as such I would vote for him.

Sasaki immediately insulted me with a one liner and voted for me. Offended, I retaliated. I first abstained. This was to make a point - at least I was trying, rather than abstaining. I then got a bit pissed off with Sasaki. After all, I really thought about that post and then Sasaki just strolled along and said "it's crap" so I voted for him in retaliation. I then unvoted Sasaki and abstained. I actually thought the best piece of evidence Sasaki gave at this point was that nobody had defended Don C early in the game.

NOW Sasaki, you've changed history. The post I quote above is so twisted and far from the original I'm almost convinced we really have got a mafia.

I call Myrddraal on his post

No. You vote for me, you're only evidence is derision of my attempts to discuss.

and he quickly votes me.

No. I vote abstain, I post asking for an explanation of wtf you're up to. I then vote for you, in pure retaliation.

So he thinks his logic voting for Don is good but he unvotes him?

How can I vote for two people at once? Like I said, I voted abstain because I wanted to make the point that you had posted no better evidence than mine, but were still attacking mine. I voted you for the same reason, only I was more annoyed. You know that Sasaki, why are you trying to twist the truth in your post?

<-Annoyed smiley...

Now, on to other matters. Hmm... I have to say I find the discussion going on between GH and Sasaki is filled with dodgyness and not much substance. I'm not sure if that means anything, seeing as one of them might be a freshly lynched mafioso, but GH you've just earned yourself a slight increase on my suspiciousness list.

RTWGuru - Well, I don't know how to best express this post. RTWGuru seems to be acting really wierdly, but not really how I'd expect a mafioso to act. It's very possible he's using ignorance as cover. That would explain everything neatly. It reminds me of the Snowman of Death. We can't afford to have unexplained behavior in the town, it could be covering a mafia member. I'm afraid you get my vote:RTWGuru, isn't voting for anyone who's acting wierdly one of the maxims of mafia games?

Someone vote Don Corleone immediately, please!

I received a PM of him... at first I tought it proved his innocence.. but I think that's what he tried to achieve, seen the fact I post the names of those I suspect and those I think are innocent sometimes, while I'm dead.

Lynch him.

Next turn, Lynch Crazed Rabbit. If you don't win, lynch Sasaki. But I highly doubt that.

Can we see the PM? Don C acted very suspiciously at the start of the game, and since then he's put a lot of effort into being very 'townie'. Of course that could be the mafia who realised his mistake, it even seems likely that this is the case. Anyway, lets see it.

[Xiahou]

Ok, now Sasaki's dead- great. Now, can we lynch Don finally? I've been suspicious of him from the very beginning and by extension CR for their seemingly choreographed votes/unvotes for each other.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Holy Moly!

Take 48 hours off and all bejeebers happens.

I will analyze and get back to this tomorrow AM.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Ok, you know what? Here's your argument. Let it be known that I actually *respond* to them, since it's clear that Sasaki won't respond to mine.

Ok, game starts and GH tries to get people to abstain:


And finds my calling him on this suspicious.

Uh, yeah. You voted for me with one of those ridiculous little one-line posts. Of course I'd find it suspicious.

GeneralH then starts to try and get clues from the mafia kills (the kind of clues that the mafia always plant) and his suspicion list points to (surprise) Myself, Divine Wind, and Ignoramus. Myrddraal agrees with him which is one of the reasons he's on my list. He also questions whether the CoP will be replaced, as if he is questioning whether it would be to the mafia's advantage to lynch Divine Wind now.

Sometimes the mafia plant clues and sometimes it's just genuine errors. Remember Godfather 1? It was pretty much all we had to go on at that point, so excuse me for furthering discussion.

Sigurd posts that he has reason to suspect Kommodus. Remember that it is in the mafia's best interest to lynch Kommodus rather than Kill him because if he's killed he's proved innocent and can still work against him.

Crazed Rabbit and Myrddraal immedietly question his claim (voting would be seen as suspicious). GeneralH is "convinced" by Sigurd in chat and votes Kommodus.

Yeah, I was convinced. Ask Sigurd, he told me about it in the chat.

Don, Crazed Rabbit, and GeneralHankerchief all jump on the Sasaki wagon

Originally I was suspicious of you but abstained. You then responded, suspiciously IMO, and I then voted for you.

They see a chance to lynch me and go for it. I answer all of their accusations but they quietly leave their vote on me and sit watching the thread doing nothing.

You know my feelings on this.

Satisfied?

[Don Corleone]

I find it really interesting Sasaki that you posted that one line and not the entire PM that I sent you, back when I thought Prole and Xiahou were mafia and Xiahou never responded. Could HE be your partner?

At the time I wrote it, you were the only person I didn't suspect. In fact, I never got suspicious of you until you started defending me so ardently. Unfortunately, as they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

[Husar]

Oh my, this is all messed up, I almost can't be bothered to read your personal feuds...let's get a few things straight...

I voted for Don as well

Yes, nice, but I think you forgot to unvote before that.

I'm afraid you get my vote:RTWGuru, isn't voting for anyone who's acting wierdly one of the maxims of mafia games?

No wonder Silver is disturbed when people post votes even before the next kills have been posted.

[Myrddraal]

Whoops!

Sorry folks...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Ok, you know what? Here's your argument. Let it be known that I actually *respond* to them, since it's clear that Sasaki won't respond to mine.

Already responded, it's interesting you like to pretend I didn't.

Uh, yeah. You voted for me with one of those ridiculous little one-line posts. Of course I'd find it suspicious.

Vote:GeneralHankerchief

For starting what could be another cycle of "I abstain, because there isn't enough information to go on, because everyone else abstained, because there isn't enough information to go on, because..."

Voting someone to start discussion is standard practice. Even if you don't choose to do it personally it's not suspicious. Day 1 is all about discussion.

You complain that my post was ridiculous. Explain why. Rampant abstention hurts the town, this is fact. Why is one line a problem? There are dozens of one line posts. I believe I've made some of the longest posts in this thread to date. I was responding to your post which was much shorter.

Sometimes the mafia plant clues and sometimes it's just genuine errors. Remember Godfather 1? It was pretty much all we had to go on at that point, so excuse me for furthering discussion.

It sends discussion in the wrong direction. Odds are greatly in favor of it being a mafia plant or just meaningless. The mafia want you to waste time discussing it. There is plenty of precedent for this.

Yeah, I was convinced. Ask Sigurd, he told me about it in the chat.

How could something so weak convince you?

Originally I was suspicious of you but abstained. You then responded, suspiciously IMO, and I then voted for you.

I'm sorry, but this makes you look more guilty. Mafia often worry about being seen as bandwagoning and will say they find someone suspicious and then vote them in a later post.

You know my feelings on this.

To be fair it could be coincidence that you didn't respond. I saw Don sitting there not responding as well which made it more interesting.

Satisfied?

Oh, entirely. I can see why you avoided responding to my post if this was all you had to offer. Myrddraal makes a much better case for his innocence.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes, nice, but I think you forgot to unvote before that.

I did unvote.

I find it really interesting Sasaki that you posted that one line and not the entire PM that I sent you, back when I thought Prole and Xiahou were mafia and Xiahou never responded. Could HE be your partner?

At the time I wrote it, you were the only person I didn't suspect. In fact, I never got suspicious of you until you started defending me so ardently. Unfortunately, as they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

I posted the relevent part. Your suspicions of Prole and Xiahou were already mentioned in the thread and ignored.

Listen, you were suspected by the town. A prime candidate for a mafia lynching. Before re-reading and noticing the links between you and several other people I thought you were merely noobish. Of course I stepped up to defend you, no offense meant but your ignorance of past games and mafia in general is really showing here Don. Unless it's an act.

Here you go if you want:

I followed up on my hunch about Prole & Xiahou. If we're allowed to by the rules, I'd like to discuss an experiment I've performed.

Doesn't say anything about it in the rules, so it must be allowed. Would be interested to hear.

Sasaki

Well, as I said, I noticed Prole & Xiahou in lock-step on that crazy story about Lemur's old enemies. Turned out to be a red herring... or did it? I PM'd each of them and told them I knew they were guilty and if they left me alive until the end, I'd be a 'runaway jury', defending them. Prole wrote back and laughed and said she was glad I'd started playing, but no, my imagination had gotten the better of me. (To be truthful, it was mostly in jest, I was more interested in their reaction then the proposal itself). I actually doubt Prole is really involved.

Xiahou on the other hand has remained strangely silent. He hasn't said a word.


If I get contract killed, Xiahou and #7 definitely have blood on their hands.

Interesting. If I was mafia I'd pop you this turn just because you'd be convinced it was Xiahou and #7 dude :p

You have to watch out for coincidence. You have to remember that if Xiahou is innocent, there is still a chance you'll be killed.

Sasaki

Kinda goes without saying that I'm pretty damned sure that you're not mafia. I mean, you certainly could be, don't get me wrong. But I just get a feel from the way you've played what little we've had to go on so far. Sure, this could be my introduction into the "never trust Sasaki" club, but there's more expeditious ways to do what you'd be trying to do.

By the way, if I'm overly posting or stirring up too much mud to be helpful, let me know. I don't think anybody's ever accused me of being too shy (I think the Backroom serves as proof there) but I can take polite criticism.

No worries m8, we need mud stirred up. The only thing we have to watch out for is being to certain in the early stages of the game. Quite often what seems like proof later turns out to have been unfounded.

Sasaki

[Ignoramus]

This is becoming increasingly difficult to find suspicious people. I am rapidly getting confused. I will post when I have done some research.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This is becoming increasingly difficult to find suspicious people. I am rapidly getting confused. I will post when I have done some research.

You said this before. How can you not find anyone suspicious yet?

[Don Corleone]

Well, Sasaki, I must not be all that off the mark if you feel a need to get insulting now. Yes, you're right, I didn't get the greatest start. And no, I haven't played 7 or 8 times over the past 6 months like the rest of you.

That doesn't mean I'm retarded or anything. I explained my reasoning. You sort of counter it, and then get into disparaging me. Interesting.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'd like to answer them, even if I can't answer them very well.



Well it's true I sort of agreed with him. FYI, here is my post on the matter:

I hardly agree at all. It was all we had to go by at the time, so it's all I could do. I decided at the beginning of this game to try to publicly analyse everything that's said. Keeping suspicions or oppinions on others suspicions private can only help the mafia (which is why I find the sudden appearance of your list of suspicions, just as you're attacked, quite suspicious itself).



What can I say. In the last and only game I played I did this kind of stuff too. I'm afraid I don't really consider what people will think of what I say, I try to be as open as possible.

Of course, if I was mafia, I'd be saying exactly the same thing. I can't defend that point with anything more than saying I was more confused by the contradicting posts following silvers post than by SR's post itself.

Well that's simply a lie. I voted for Kommodus after the evidence against him had been publicly posted. I then stated that I was suspicious of those who had voted for him without evidence.

Now that is weak Sasaki. You know exactly what went on with that sequence of posts, and it wasn't what you just wrote there. This is what happened (anyone feel free to go and check).

I posted a lengthy post which contained all the suspicions I had in my mind at the time. This included amongst other things an analysis of the previous accusations of Don C as I saw them. I said in that post that the latest evidence individually was very weak, but since there had several other suspicious things (especially his early behavior) he was highest on my suspicious list, and as such I would vote for him.

Sasaki immediately insulted me with a one liner and voted for me. Offended, I retaliated. I first abstained. This was to make a point - at least I was trying, rather than abstaining. I then got a bit pissed off with Sasaki. After all, I really thought about that post and then Sasaki just strolled along and said "it's crap" so I voted for him in retaliation. I then unvoted Sasaki and abstained. I actually thought the best piece of evidence Sasaki gave at this point was that nobody had defended Don C early in the game.

NOW Sasaki, you've changed history. The post I quote above is so twisted and far from the original I'm almost convinced we really have got a mafia.


No. You vote for me, you're only evidence is derision of my attempts to discuss.

No. I vote abstain, I post asking for an explanation of wtf you're up to. I then vote for you, in pure retaliation.

How can I vote for two people at once? Like I said, I voted abstain because I wanted to make the point that you had posted no better evidence than mine, but were still attacking mine. I voted you for the same reason, only I was more annoyed. You know that Sasaki, why are you trying to twist the truth in your post?

<-Annoyed smiley...

I do want to apologize if I came off as insulting. I wanted to say that I found your posting remeniscent of a clever mafioso. You are also an excellent choice for mafioso which is why you remain near the top of my list. You can say you meant such and such by your post or that you had a good reason for voting Kommodus, but the fact is a mafioso could come up with such a reason and use it to eliminate a good player. If I were mafia I would probably use the "Kommodus is a good choice for mafioso" argument just the same so I won't argue this point too much.

You refer to my twisting of the truth, I'm just trying to read between the lines. If you're innocent it comes of as twisting the truth, if you're guilty then I'm uncovering the truth.

[Csargo]

Oh my God there's so much crap to read I'm gone what 3 hours? I hate you guys ;P

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well, Sasaki, I must not be all that off the mark if you feel a need to get insulting now. Yes, you're right, I didn't get the greatest start. And no, I haven't played 7 or 8 times over the past 6 months like the rest of you.

That doesn't mean I'm retarded or anything. I explained my reasoning. You sort of counter it, and then get into disparaging me. Interesting.

It wasn't meant as an insult. Should I have been pc and said "your lack of knowledge of previous games" instead?

When your arguments would not be used by anyone who has played the game a number of times what am I supposed to say? It's like I claim Communism is the solution to all the worlds problems and you say "well, historically, the ussr..." and I say: "don't call me retarded just because I haven't read any history books! I still believe it's true!".

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Oh my God there's so much crap to read I'm gone what 3 hours? I hate you guys ;P

Well Csar it's interesting that you say that. I've done a post by post analysis of your behavior this game with references to the last few games, it's a bit lengthy so I'll put it in spoiler tags:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Made you look!

[Csargo]

You complain that my post was ridiculous. Explain why. Rampant abstention hurts the town, this is fact. Why is one line a problem? There are dozens of one line posts. I believe I've made some of the longest posts in this thread to date. I was responding to your post which was much shorter.

Sasaki could you explain to me why Abstention hurts the town I'm confused?

Oh yeah that last post was hilarious.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sasaki could you explain to me why Abstention hurts the town I'm confused?

Oh yeah that last post was hilarious.

Because there's no discussion and all that happens is townies die. The detective has a 1/14 chance of finding a mafioso first round. 2nd round he has 1/13. If he just randomly guesses by the time he finds a mafioso half the town will be dead. It's no good at all, and GeneralH knows this.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Holy Moly!

Take 48 hours off and all bejeebers happens.

I will analyze and get back to this tomorrow AM.

Is this true or are you just avoiding posting?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Oh, and if none of the people I named are actually in the mafia then I'm officially the worst townie ever

[Csargo]

Because there's no discussion and all that happens is townies die. The detective has a 1/14 chance of finding a mafioso first round. 2nd round he has 1/13. If he just randomly guesses by the time he finds a mafioso half the town will be dead. It's no good at all, and GeneralH knows this.

Just because one person Abstains not all of them will Sasaki.

Oh yeah something else I've noticed.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Your Crazy