Hermann Goering

[Csargo]

Figured I'de try to start a discussion on him since I have nothing better to do.

I watched a show on the History Channel about him during the Nuremberg Trials. It said that he was addicted to some kind of drug when he was sent for the trial there. I find it weird that from what it said he was a pretty bright man that he would have done such a bad job coordinating the Luftwaffe.

[Mount Suribachi]

Goering was many things - a talented fighter pilot in WW1, charming, gregarious, a romantic, the kind of guy you like to be sat next to at a dinner party.

He was also lacking in the mangerial skills needed to run the Luftwaffe and would much rather have been drinking fine wine and eating caviar at a top restraunt whilst discussing the latest works of art he had "acquired" than working 20 hours a day trying to fend off the RAF, USAAF and Russian AF.

[Stig]

Goering co-ordinated the Luftwaffe as good as he could, the problem was Adolf himself. Adolf made sure that the Germans were fucked up. Due to his actions they quickly lost loads of troops, resources and material were they didn't need to.
This was a problem for Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and Wehrmacht. They all couldn't do what was best.

Tho Hermann made one great mistake by attacking London, instead of the airports, but then again, this was also initiated by Adolf who wanted revenge for the bombings on London.

[Derfasciti]

As Mount Suribachi has said. He was a pretty likeable guy. IIRC he was an addict of morphine.


What I don't get is that we tried him for crimes against humanity. But he had nothing to really do with the death camps, I think. All he did was try and make war... just like everyone else has done for the past millenia.

BTW, I saw that show too. Not all of it though. It was very fun to watch and was like a movie.

[Dutch_guy]

What I don't get is that we tried him for crimes against humanity. But he had nothing to really do with the death camps, I think. All he did was try and make war... just like everyone else has done for the past millenia.

Well he was such a high figure in the hierachy that he must have know at least something, if not everything, about those Deathcamps. And not doing anything about such a thing warrants the death penalty, in my opinion.

But I do agree, he sure had less to do with them than say a Himmler.

[Mount Suribachi]

But how many slave workers toiled away making aircraft, ammo etc. How many slave workers dug for the coal that fired the trains that transported the Luftwaffe's men and material? Furthermore at the Nuremberg trials he couldn't see what all the fuss was about. He was of the opinion that might makes right, and everyone else would have done the same in Germany's position.

Stig - y'know, not everything was Adolfs fault. Bombing London for revenge? Revenge on what? Britain had made a point of not bombing German cities for fear of provoking retaliation (possibly with gas), and Bomber Command in 1940 was barely capable of landing bombs on Germany full stop, let alone hitting their cities. The decision to switch to attacking British cities was for a variety of reasons, thankfully it cost Germany the battle

It was also Goering who promised Hitler that the Luftwaffe would fly what was it, 300 tons of supplies a day to the 6th army in Stalingrad? And never got over 100 IIRC.

[Stig]

Stig - y'know, not everything was Adolfs fault. Bombing London for revenge? Revenge on what? Britain had made a point of not bombing German cities for fear of provoking retaliation (possibly with gas), and Bomber Command in 1940 was barely capable of landing bombs on Germany full stop, let alone hitting their cities. The decision to switch to attacking British cities was for a variety of reasons, thankfully it cost Germany the battle

The Brits revenged themselves for the first bombing on London. Goering didn't want that bombing. After the British revenge Hitler wanted revenge for that etc etc

[Csargo]

As Mount Suribachi has said. He was a pretty likeable guy. IIRC he was an addict of morphine.


What I don't get is that we tried him for crimes against humanity. But he had nothing to really do with the death camps, I think. All he did was try and make war... just like everyone else has done for the past millenia.

BTW, I saw that show too. Not all of it though. It was very fun to watch and was like a movie.

The show said that he was one of the strong arguers for the Death Camps and Concentration camps at the Final Solution to the Jewish Question. The real reason is they needed a top Nazi official to take the blame for all the things that happened and Goering was that official.

[Stig]

And that he didn't say no to them. Very important that.

[Derfasciti]

Without getting into a major argument, I just don't see the morality in killing others to atone for other deaths. Especially when only a century or so earlier America had it's own unofficial holocaust. But regardless, this is history.

[Csargo]

Without getting into a major argument, I just don't see the morality in killing others to atone for other deaths. Especially when only a century or so earlier America had it's own unofficial holocaust. But regardless, this is history.

The Allies needed a person to pin all the blame on Goering was the highest ranking Nazi official they have caught.

Up until 1945 when the Allies discovered the Holocaust mostly Jews weren't very liked by other people in Europe.

[Dutch_guy]

Without getting into a major argument, I just don't see the morality in killing others to atone for other deaths.

Well, I too don't agree with that concept per sé - but I do, for some reason, agree with emposing the death penalty on Nazi criminals like Goering.

And by the way, I have never heard of the Americans driving people into designated camps built for the sole reason of getting them killed.

[Csargo]

And by the way, I have never heard of the Americans driving people into designated camps built for the sole reason of getting them killed.

Yes Derfasciti what are you talking about? The Indians or Japanese?

[Stig]

I think the Indians, tho that is a complete different story.

And Csar is right. The Jews weren't really liked in Europe. Look at the Catholic Church that didn't do anything about it, ofcourse they couldn't stop it, but they could tell it to the world.

[Derfasciti]

I was speaking of the native americans.


So what if they didn't overtly put them into camps and condemn them to death? They might as well have.

[Csargo]

I was speaking of the native americans.


So what if they didn't overtly put them into camps and condemn them to death? They might as well have.

True but that's not quite as bad a massive Death Camps.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

True but that's not quite as bad a massive Death Camps.

May I point out the atrocities of the Boer Wars? Admittedly, it was the British, but a good example nonetheless.

[Csargo]

May I point out the atrocities of the Boer Wars? Admittedly, it was the British, but a good example nonetheless.

Yes plus the Turkish in the 1917s there are so many atrocities throughout history.

[Mount Suribachi]

Yes there are. But the Holocaust trumps them all. This was an attempt to wipe out an entire people on an industrial scale. And furthermore it was done in a supposedly modern, enlightened age. In a post WW1 world were mankind was supposed to have put all that kind of stuff behind him. In one of the most educated countries on Earth. Stuff like the Boer war is hardly worth mentioning compared to the Holocaust.

As for someone to pin the blame on, even if we'd caught Hitler alive, I'm pretty sure that Goering would have been tried and sentanced to death. Hell, Stalin wanted every single German officer executed without trial till Churchill persuaded him otherwise......

[Franconicus]

If you talk about Göring, do not forget that he was not only the founder and leader of the Luftwaffe. He was also former head of the police and founder of the Gestapo. Therefore, he wwas one of the major creator of the terror system in Germany. Needless to discuss whether he knew of the crimes.

He was also responsible for the war economy. His failures here were even worse than as a leader of the air force.

[Denizar]

As far as I know Goering got addicted to morphine after the Beer Hall Putsch, when he was hospitalized.

[KrooK]

Stig - American Jews did much less to help European Jews than Catholic Church. Actually they did much to prevent Allies from helping European Jews.
They simply didn't believe into DeathCamps and called that polish propaganda.
American Jews agreed on ghettos - they believe that Jews will gain self-government. I can't accept your accusation against Holy Church. Who like who, but Church couldn't do much.

Talking about Goering don't forget about Luftwaffe tactic - bombing open cities, firing into civilian on roads, using Red Cross sights as a target.... were absolutely normal and accepted. He perfectly knew what is Nazis Death Machine and he did whatever he could to make it's stronger - luckily he was economical idiot :)

[Oaty]

And by the way, I have never heard of the Americans driving people into designated camps built for the sole reason of getting them killed.

They were called reservations

[Stig]

@Krook
see if you can get the movie Amen to rent it, and go watch it. imo It's one of the best movies ever made. It shows how the church didn't do anything ... and at the end helped the Germans to escape to South America.

[Kralizec]

Yes there are. But the Holocaust trumps them all. This was an attempt to wipe out an entire people on an industrial scale. And furthermore it was done in a supposedly modern, enlightened age. In a post WW1 world were mankind was supposed to have put all that kind of stuff behind him. In one of the most educated countries on Earth. Stuff like the Boer war is hardly worth mentioning compared to the Holocaust.

The war crimes perpetrated at the Ostfront trumps even the holocaust. The Germans didn't go there just to subjegate like with France or the low countries, but with the intent of freeing up lebensraum for future German colonists. The Germans murdered an estimated 17 million Russian civilians.
General Eisenhower had this to say:
"When we flew into Russia, in 1945, I did not see a house standing between the western borders of the country and the area around Moscow. Through this overrun region, Marshal Zhukov told me, so many numbers of women, children and old men had been killed that the Russian Government would never be able to estimate the total."

I don't recall having heard or seen this mentioned even once while I was in high school, and it's not made up.

[Stig]

When I was at High School they told the Russians used the same tactic as with Napoleon, just withdrawing and burning all supplies, towns etc.

[Kralizec]

That I heard to, but that can't account for 17 million dead peasants...

For one thing the Nazis confiscated the little food and other recources left behind.

[Fragony]

That I heard to, but that can't account for 17 million dead peasants...

For one thing the Nazis confiscated the little food and other recources left behind.

'Tactics of the scorched earth', no food no nothing, and don't forget that Russia is massive. I was told that 17 million russians civilian died, something else then killed. Anyway, not nice at all.

[KrooK]

Stig - movies are not source of history. Please use normal sources.

If you are talking about nazist who escaped to America - have you forgot that US government helped many nazist escape to United States and became Americans.

[Stig]

Stig - movies are not source of history. Please use normal sources.

Why aren't movies that are historically accurate and not a Hollywood blockbuster no source of history. If this movie isn't a source of history then books aren't sources either.
Go and watch it before you start

If you are talking about nazist who escaped to America - have you forgot that US government helped many nazist escape to United States and became Americans.

That's different. The Vatican helped the top nazi's (what's that kraut called that did experiments in one of the camps). The USA helped rocket scientist, no real nazi's.