Hermann Goering

[KrooK]

Stig - movies are not source of history. Please use normal sources.

If you are talking about nazist who escaped to America - have you forgot that US government helped many nazist escape to United States and became Americans.

[Stig]

Stig - movies are not source of history. Please use normal sources.

Why aren't movies that are historically accurate and not a Hollywood blockbuster no source of history. If this movie isn't a source of history then books aren't sources either.
Go and watch it before you start

If you are talking about nazist who escaped to America - have you forgot that US government helped many nazist escape to United States and became Americans.

That's different. The Vatican helped the top nazi's (what's that kraut called that did experiments in one of the camps). The USA helped rocket scientist, no real nazi's.

[Dutch_guy]

That's different. The Vatican helped the top nazi's (what's that kraut called that did experiments in one of the camps). The USA helped rocket scientist, no real nazi's.

Mengele, the Auschwitz ''doctor''

[Stig]

Yup that's the one

[Petrus]

That's different. The Vatican helped the top nazi's (what's that kraut called that did experiments in one of the camps). The USA helped rocket scientist, no real nazi's.

Top scientists were nazis just like everyone that wanted to have a career in germany during those times.

But the us also helped hard core Nazis, from the Gestapo, ss etc … as long as they could be useful.

Ever heard about Klaus Barbie?

[Stig]

Rocket scientists are nazi's yes, but in that case every ordinary soldier can be seen as a nazi. Only members of the party are real nazi's.

No never heard of Klaus Barbie

[Mount Suribachi]

The US didn't "help" the German scientists "escape". They captured them and took them to America where they could continue their research - for the Americans. The Russians did the same with the ones they captured (compare the Mig-15 with the Ta-183.....) The last months of the war there was a race between the two to scoop up as many German scientists as possible - most of whom were trying to flee west to surrender to the Americans. Werner Von Braun is one of the most famous.

However, to say that just because they were scientists meant that they couldn't be Nazis is a little disingenuous. I'm sure some of them voted for Hitler.

[Stig]

However, to say that just because they were scientists meant that they couldn't be Nazis is a little disingenuous. I'm sure some of them voted for Hitler.

I never said that ... atleast never meant to said that

Petrus said that everyone who wanted a career in Germany was a nazi, well there are enough German generals that weren't nazi's and even disgusted the nazi's. Most of the Prussian Generals, and some more. Even a Waffen-SS general was against Hitler.

[Petrus]

I never said that ... atleast never meant to said that

Petrus said that everyone who wanted a career in Germany was a nazi, well there are enough German generals that weren't nazi's and even disgusted the nazi's. Most of the Prussian Generals, and some more. Even a Waffen-SS general was against Hitler.

This debate is far beyond my possibilities in English.

Let us try.

Without the support of the army, the Nazis could not have taken and kept the power during the 1930’s.

The very positive support of the regime by the generals changed only after the defeat became obvious.

All high ranking generals were involved, in one way or another, with nazi’s politics.

This does not mean they adhere to each and every hitler’s belief, but they participated to the regime activities and they beneficiated from it.

What would have been Rommel’s or Guderian’s career without Hitler?

Just like in every totalitarian regime, people that held responsibilities in the regime were linked to that regime politics.

Even a man like Manstein, that had no love for Hitler, depended on him for the promotion of his military doctrine and of his career. Even him addressed antisemit orders to his troops as they progressed in ussr and participated to the einzatzgruppen’s activities.

So this does not make of every general during the nazi regime a baby eater, but almost all of them propagated Nazi ideology and support to the regime.

This is true for most of the persons holding responsibilities in germany at that time.

For Klaus Barbie :

http://members.aol.com/voyl/barbie/barbie.htm

[Stig]

Without the support of the army, the Nazis could not have taken and kept the power during the 1930’s

Not true, as Hitler came to power in a legal way, the people supported him

All high ranking generals were involved, in one way or another, with nazi’s politics

Not true, they have nothing to do with it

So this does not make of every general during the nazi regime a baby eater, but almost all of them propagated Nazi ideology and support to the regime.

Not true, the Prussians supported the Nazi's only because it meant it came closer to the days of the Kaiser and the Naz's promised a big army again.

[Fragony]

That is not really fair towards the germans, it was just impossible to not be a member of the nazi's and still make a real carreer. I am also not sure of how many people knew of the deathcamps, brittish enigma decoder didn't even record a single mention of them as far as I know. I don't think it was common knowledge, the germans are civilised people no butchers.

[Stig]

I doubt that Von Rundstedt, Rommel, Model or any of them ever heard of the deathcamps, they were all soldiers. They came to fight their wars, that's what was their job, most of them wanted to have nothing to do with the nazi's.

[Keba]

As has been said, the Nazis rose through power through democracy. The military was of use in subduing the SA ... however, the SA was, during the planning stage, seen as an agency of a foreign power. Rohm was set up as a French agent, and considering the loyalty of the SA to Rohm, who was the second man in the Reich ... the military is to protect the state from external enemies, and according to evidence, the SA were foreign soldiers, enemies.

In general, knowledge of the death camps was ... both known and unknown. People tend not to see what they don't want, and, as despised as the Jews were at that time, it is unlikely that people would believe in such massive extermination campaigns. Though, to be honest, the SS were seen as lunatics by their fellow soldiers. Crazed fanatics who were liable to get killed, and who were far too reckless and agressive for their own good.

Speaking of my own area, the existance of internment camps was known, but what went on there not. The nazis and their supporters knew, as well as a few civilians, some of whom were supporters, some of whom were working against them. However, on average, what went on inside was completely unknown to almost everyone.

Oh, and not quite. Most people serving in Germany were working for two reasons ... one, the glory of the Fatherland. Nearly everyone served their homeland in her time of need. Second, the allies started the war from the German perspective ... and the war in the East? Nobody liked the Communists, and the German crusade against them was seen as an applaudable goal.

Perhaps you should look up some of the jokes popular in the Third Reich ... most of them were about Hitler and his ilk ... not exactly a hallmark of good Nazis.

What would have been Rommel’s or Guderian’s career without Hitler?

A very bright career in the military. Both were innovative thinkers who actually made some new ideas that are common today. Mannstien, too ... IIRC, he worked on mobile artillery.

[KrooK]

Stig - you really should have read good book about Eastern Front (not 1941-1945 but 1939-1945). Wermacht on East behaved similar to SS, especially on Ukraine. Actually only into Poland Wermacht soldiers killed not less than 500.000 civilians. They started massive execution about 4th september 1939.
Your theory that German Generals did not know what was happening with Jews or Poles are real proof on your lacks into comparing facts. On Eastern Front German commanders were ordered to clear the area for German race.
I think you know what means "clear". Instructions were simple and were executed with famous german precision. Best example would be order for units besieging Leningrad - "if you capture city, do not feed civilians", or firing into ships with children on Ladoga Lake.
Anyway don't you think that quite intelligent officers would be completely blind. Massive executions in Poland were not made quiet and silently.
Germans turned that into kind of holiday. I won't even mention Varsav Rising 1944 and massacre on Wola district - 50.000 civilians.
German generals really support Hitler until they were sure that he will win.
They stopped supporting Hitler not because they hated Hitler but they decided that it would be better for 3RD REICH if Hitler will be killed.
Germans simply could not accept polish and jewish right to live.


Even now Germans are trying to attack Poland. They want gain sea areas next to Szczecin city, which is biggest port in Poland.
Last week German tourist ship crew hijacked polish custom officers when they found illegal alcohol on the board. German police arrested ... polish custom officers, not hijackers.