Hermann Goering

[Dutch_guy]

That's different. The Vatican helped the top nazi's (what's that kraut called that did experiments in one of the camps). The USA helped rocket scientist, no real nazi's.

Mengele, the Auschwitz ''doctor''

[Stig]

Yup that's the one

[Petrus]

That's different. The Vatican helped the top nazi's (what's that kraut called that did experiments in one of the camps). The USA helped rocket scientist, no real nazi's.

Top scientists were nazis just like everyone that wanted to have a career in germany during those times.

But the us also helped hard core Nazis, from the Gestapo, ss etc … as long as they could be useful.

Ever heard about Klaus Barbie?

[Stig]

Rocket scientists are nazi's yes, but in that case every ordinary soldier can be seen as a nazi. Only members of the party are real nazi's.

No never heard of Klaus Barbie

[Mount Suribachi]

The US didn't "help" the German scientists "escape". They captured them and took them to America where they could continue their research - for the Americans. The Russians did the same with the ones they captured (compare the Mig-15 with the Ta-183.....) The last months of the war there was a race between the two to scoop up as many German scientists as possible - most of whom were trying to flee west to surrender to the Americans. Werner Von Braun is one of the most famous.

However, to say that just because they were scientists meant that they couldn't be Nazis is a little disingenuous. I'm sure some of them voted for Hitler.

[Stig]

However, to say that just because they were scientists meant that they couldn't be Nazis is a little disingenuous. I'm sure some of them voted for Hitler.

I never said that ... atleast never meant to said that

Petrus said that everyone who wanted a career in Germany was a nazi, well there are enough German generals that weren't nazi's and even disgusted the nazi's. Most of the Prussian Generals, and some more. Even a Waffen-SS general was against Hitler.

[Petrus]

I never said that ... atleast never meant to said that

Petrus said that everyone who wanted a career in Germany was a nazi, well there are enough German generals that weren't nazi's and even disgusted the nazi's. Most of the Prussian Generals, and some more. Even a Waffen-SS general was against Hitler.

This debate is far beyond my possibilities in English.

Let us try.

Without the support of the army, the Nazis could not have taken and kept the power during the 1930’s.

The very positive support of the regime by the generals changed only after the defeat became obvious.

All high ranking generals were involved, in one way or another, with nazi’s politics.

This does not mean they adhere to each and every hitler’s belief, but they participated to the regime activities and they beneficiated from it.

What would have been Rommel’s or Guderian’s career without Hitler?

Just like in every totalitarian regime, people that held responsibilities in the regime were linked to that regime politics.

Even a man like Manstein, that had no love for Hitler, depended on him for the promotion of his military doctrine and of his career. Even him addressed antisemit orders to his troops as they progressed in ussr and participated to the einzatzgruppen’s activities.

So this does not make of every general during the nazi regime a baby eater, but almost all of them propagated Nazi ideology and support to the regime.

This is true for most of the persons holding responsibilities in germany at that time.

For Klaus Barbie :

http://members.aol.com/voyl/barbie/barbie.htm

[Stig]

Without the support of the army, the Nazis could not have taken and kept the power during the 1930’s

Not true, as Hitler came to power in a legal way, the people supported him

All high ranking generals were involved, in one way or another, with nazi’s politics

Not true, they have nothing to do with it

So this does not make of every general during the nazi regime a baby eater, but almost all of them propagated Nazi ideology and support to the regime.

Not true, the Prussians supported the Nazi's only because it meant it came closer to the days of the Kaiser and the Naz's promised a big army again.

[Fragony]

That is not really fair towards the germans, it was just impossible to not be a member of the nazi's and still make a real carreer. I am also not sure of how many people knew of the deathcamps, brittish enigma decoder didn't even record a single mention of them as far as I know. I don't think it was common knowledge, the germans are civilised people no butchers.

[Stig]

I doubt that Von Rundstedt, Rommel, Model or any of them ever heard of the deathcamps, they were all soldiers. They came to fight their wars, that's what was their job, most of them wanted to have nothing to do with the nazi's.

[Fragony]

I doubt that Von Rundstedt, Rommel, Model or any of them ever heard of the deathcamps, they were all soldiers. They came to fight their wars, that's what was their job, most of them wanted to have nothing to do with the nazi's.

I agree. Why would the nazi's want the wehrmacht to know about these camps, no benefit whatsoever, maybe even a revolt? Nah, don't buy it. I wonder how the nazi's would be judged if we never learned about the Shoah, there is a fun book that plays with that idea: 'Fatherland'

[Dutch_guy]

I doubt that Von Rundstedt, Rommel, Model or any of them ever heard of the deathcamps, they were all soldiers. They came to fight their wars, that's what was their job, most of them wanted to have nothing to do with the nazi's.

Yes, true, but even so I have trouble believing people like the above - who wielded significant power in the German war machine - didn't know what all those one way trains were used for. I'd say these people must have heard at least rumours of deportation camps after Heydrichs assassination...

And I find it even harder to believe they never heard of the atrocities commited by the einsatzgruppen in the [far] east.

[Stig]

What's said is that the Jews were transported to the east to live and work there.
Auschwitz has his slogan Arbeit Macht Frei. Said was that the Jews were working. And these trains were used to transport them to the east.

[Keba]

As has been said, the Nazis rose through power through democracy. The military was of use in subduing the SA ... however, the SA was, during the planning stage, seen as an agency of a foreign power. Rohm was set up as a French agent, and considering the loyalty of the SA to Rohm, who was the second man in the Reich ... the military is to protect the state from external enemies, and according to evidence, the SA were foreign soldiers, enemies.

In general, knowledge of the death camps was ... both known and unknown. People tend not to see what they don't want, and, as despised as the Jews were at that time, it is unlikely that people would believe in such massive extermination campaigns. Though, to be honest, the SS were seen as lunatics by their fellow soldiers. Crazed fanatics who were liable to get killed, and who were far too reckless and agressive for their own good.

Speaking of my own area, the existance of internment camps was known, but what went on there not. The nazis and their supporters knew, as well as a few civilians, some of whom were supporters, some of whom were working against them. However, on average, what went on inside was completely unknown to almost everyone.

Oh, and not quite. Most people serving in Germany were working for two reasons ... one, the glory of the Fatherland. Nearly everyone served their homeland in her time of need. Second, the allies started the war from the German perspective ... and the war in the East? Nobody liked the Communists, and the German crusade against them was seen as an applaudable goal.

Perhaps you should look up some of the jokes popular in the Third Reich ... most of them were about Hitler and his ilk ... not exactly a hallmark of good Nazis.

What would have been Rommel’s or Guderian’s career without Hitler?

A very bright career in the military. Both were innovative thinkers who actually made some new ideas that are common today. Mannstien, too ... IIRC, he worked on mobile artillery.

[KrooK]

Stig - you really should have read good book about Eastern Front (not 1941-1945 but 1939-1945). Wermacht on East behaved similar to SS, especially on Ukraine. Actually only into Poland Wermacht soldiers killed not less than 500.000 civilians. They started massive execution about 4th september 1939.
Your theory that German Generals did not know what was happening with Jews or Poles are real proof on your lacks into comparing facts. On Eastern Front German commanders were ordered to clear the area for German race.
I think you know what means "clear". Instructions were simple and were executed with famous german precision. Best example would be order for units besieging Leningrad - "if you capture city, do not feed civilians", or firing into ships with children on Ladoga Lake.
Anyway don't you think that quite intelligent officers would be completely blind. Massive executions in Poland were not made quiet and silently.
Germans turned that into kind of holiday. I won't even mention Varsav Rising 1944 and massacre on Wola district - 50.000 civilians.
German generals really support Hitler until they were sure that he will win.
They stopped supporting Hitler not because they hated Hitler but they decided that it would be better for 3RD REICH if Hitler will be killed.
Germans simply could not accept polish and jewish right to live.


Even now Germans are trying to attack Poland. They want gain sea areas next to Szczecin city, which is biggest port in Poland.
Last week German tourist ship crew hijacked polish custom officers when they found illegal alcohol on the board. German police arrested ... polish custom officers, not hijackers.

[Stig]

your lacks into comparing facts

I would go on attacking people, things like that are real good for ones forum career. It's ok that you discuss but do it in a civil matter, you already insulted all sorts of other people (every nation) in another thread. Learn to debate or don't debate, don't do personal attacks, it's low and it proves that you can't debate.

Wermacht on East behaved similar to SS

What do you mean similair to SS? Did all SS behave badly? No very not so. General Bittrich is a known Waffen SS General. He's seen as one of the most honourable generals, on both sides, in the entire war.

Even now Germans are trying to attack Poland.

What did you smoke m8?

btw you say I lack sources, what are yours?

[KrooK]

I did not smoke anything, I'mt telling facts.

Poland and Germany signed internationa pact into 1989 about sea border.
Not Germans are trying to break it - this is nothing more than violating of polish territory similar to these from 20ties and 30ties.

I'm telling that all SS was bad. Yes - Waffen SS was bad. This is nothing more than one big criminal organisation. Every member of this formation if guilty of war crimes.

My sources - mostly polish, some Histories of Poland, some histories of WW2.

I will write more about Bittrich and his soldiers soon.

[KrooK]

Stig I'm very sorry from my earlier posts.
I shouldn't be agressive towards you.
We are here to discuss history not fight each other.

According to Bittrich and his SS divisions (9th and 10th), I agree that they commited less crimes than other divisions from that formation (1st, 2nd) but they did not have clear hands.

Bittrich has been sent to French prison because his soldiers from 9th Division killed 17 captured partisans.
10th Division is suspected for inspiring and silently helping 14th SS division (count from Ukrainians - calles "Galizien") to murder polish civilians on Volhylia.

At the end of my post I would like to apologise you Stig one more time.

[Stig]

Bittrich as written by Christopher Hibbert (very famous historian)

Tall, stiff, handsome and highly intelligent, Bittrich was one of the most respected Waffen SS Generals in the German Army. unlike most of them he had a cultivated taste, a kindly manner, and a pleasant sense of humour. Although by then an ambitious officer, he had once wnated to be a musician and had studied at one of Germany's leading academies of music where he had shown great talent as a conductor. He was a Nazi, but he despised the Party sycophants and in particular Goering with whom he had served in the Luftwaffe. His courage was legendary. In June 1953, after eight years of prison, he was tried for war crimes by a French court at Marseilles and was acquitted. Arnhem; 1962, page 45-46

Furthermore you are Polish, your country suffered under the Germans, that's why you have the main part of the hate feelings, I'm Dutch, my country suffered to but I wasn't there then, and am forgiving.

My sources:
Christopher Hibbert (as said)
Saul David
C. Bauer
loads of more running to
Cornelius Ryan
Charles Mackenzie
John Frost
and some overviews of the Second World War
also a part of Heinz Hohne's The Order of the Death's Head, a book about the SS and it's terror (since my main interest is in Dutch history I didn't read everything, mainly because it was in German too)

Hohne writes that Bittrich wanted to get rid off Hitler and was in atleast 1 plot against him, but adviced that before an overthrow it would be better if Hitler was out of the way first, since that never happened he couldn't push through.

Also I read another book, but I simply forgot the name

I think this shows that not all SS is bad

[Watchman]

By what I've read of it the Wehrmacht was only too happy to help the Einsatzgruppen at their job most of the time. Heck, the superiors of the latter eventually had to issue official orders prohibiting regular troops from loitering around the execution places taking photos...

The senior officers cannot but have been perfectly aware of it if they weren't actually encouraging participation in the Nazi racial agenda. Many of them must also have suspected something when the extermination camps were set up, but like the countless officials, functionaries, civilians and whoever peripherally connected to the project and doubltess aware something was going on, likely did not pry too much and did not want to either. See no evil hear no evil; and the industrial-scale scientific mass murder of the camps was really something so far beyond the pale it had to be seen in person to be really believed, and just about any sane person in the German state apparatus would have rather looked away than investigate too closely if only for the sake of their peace of mind if given the choice. No doubt the civilians dwelling near the various camps also rather preferred to not know - it's not like that would have changed anything anyway.

By what I've read the senior Nazi leadership actually did take steps to keep the whole thing under wraps - for example all the transcripts and documents of the meeting where the "final solution" was decided were ordered destroyed, although at least one copy survived; presumably someone who didn't quite like the idea for one reason or another (the military men tended to be opposed for purely pragmatic considerations of logistical and industrial capacity if nothing else for example) failed to comply. Apparently the camps weren't common knowledge even inside the SS, save of course the branches directly involved such as the camp guards and other staff.

Ad for the Waffen-SS, it should be kept in mind that diverse foreign volunteers (and "volunteers"; the battalion contributed by the Finns tends to get called "the hostage battalion" in sources around here) - typically motivated by anti-communist or anti-bolshevik agendas or more personal reasons - were amalgamated into their own fighting units under the organization. AFAIK these as a rule were straight combat troops, although given the prevalent attitudes in the German military at least some may well have taken part in the atrocities carried out in the field. Still, the German upper leadership probably preferred to keep such potential inconvenient witnesses away from the nastier stuff; the foreigners' political dedication and reliability was as a rule nonexistent by SS standards.

I've incidentally read that the Italian units contributed to the East Front were invariably quite horrified by German conduct and flatly refused to let the death squads do their thing in areas under their jurisdication - Italian fascism was markedly lacking in the vicious racial dogmas of the Nazis after all (although Musslini eventually added some lukewarm anti-semitism to keep Hitler happy).

[Stig]

Apparently the camps weren't common knowledge even inside the SS, save of course the branches directly involved such as the camp guards and other staff.

This is correct. In a book I'm reading now (De slag bij Arnhem (Dutch book)) it tells of all the defensive troops the Germans had in Holland. With that it tells of the Dutch SS. They were normal men, who otherwise should be working in the factories. However they were told that they also could guard ammo and vehicle dumps somewhere in Holland, which was better paid and far less dangerous. So all these men joined up and found themselves guarding Mass Destruction Camp Amersfoort, of which it was said it was a training.
In the early days of the SS the SS was meant as Hitlers personal bodyguard, later on however they needed the SS to fight too. With this it became far easier to join the SS, you were promised a better salery, a better soldiers life if you joined up, so loads of "innocent" people did.

With the SS becoming a military orginization Himmler was no longer it's boss, as he wasn't in the military. The SS was devided over the Armygroups and Armies and simply came under command of people as Model, Mannstein, etc.
Himmler however was still leader of the things as "death squads" and unofficially still a symbolical leader of the SS, that too is a reason why people say all SS is bad.

[Fragony]

Furthermore you are Polish, your country suffered under the Germans, that's why you have the main part of the hate feelings, I'm Dutch, my country suffered to but I wasn't there then, and am forgiving.

Cannot really be compared, the germans weren't that bad here, save for a few small massacres and bombing of a major city That is peanuts compared with how they behaved in Poland, I can understand that anti-german sentiments are stronger there.

[Stig]

Yeah that is true, tho I don't really get it. Half of Poland used to be Germany

[Fragony]

Yeah that is true, tho I don't really get it. Half of Poland used to be Germany

Ya, and the polish did make sure that there were no germans left in those pieces of land, one of these forgotten post-WW2 ethic-cleaning parties

[Fragony]

Linkie,

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.HTM

For these returning Germans and those that had found havens in the Eastern territories from the war or had remained, the "greatest forcible dislocation of persons in European history"4 was yet to come. Within a few years of the war's end an incredible 15,000,000 Reichdeutsch and Ethnic German civilians would be thrown out of Poland, the Baltic States, Memel, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Yugoslavia, and the Eastern areas of Germany (this is as though the Netherlands, Afghanistan, or Greece were totally emptied of all humans by force). From around 500,000 to 3,700,000 Germans, probably near 1,900,000, would die or be killed in this process (in addition to those that died during the wartime evacuation and flight), most by actions of the Poles, Czechs, and Yugoslavs. Estimates and calculations of the numbers expelled and the death toll are given in Table 7.1.

We all go a bit crazy sometimes

[Stig]

mmm interesting things to learn, didn't know that, I would have expected them to slowly leave, but not like that.

[Fragony]

The victor writes the history, it isn't a very popular subject in Poland like Krook is about to demonstrate. Poland was no saint, they don't like this word either 'Jedwabne' , try it

[Kralizec]

Fragony, to be fair it should be mentioned that Poland was forced to give up a lot of its eastern land.

I knew Poland wasn't nice against it's German minority after the war, but 1,900,000 seems like a lot...

[KrooK]

Fraggony - I don't know how about you, but I explained you several time that YOU ARE IN MISTAKE, and author of that article is simply lying and he forget about some things, quite important.
I'm repeating last time - so please read it and remember.

Do not mix great evacutation from Prussia and Western Poland into 1944/1945
with Germans obligatory emigration from 1946-1948.
Into 1944.95 it was Hitler's order that Germans must run from EAST PART OF GERMANY (PRUSSIA, POMORZE ZACHODNIE, DOLNY SLASK) AND WESTERN POLAND. Do you know how they appeared into Western Poland. 4 years later they polish civilians were forced to leave their homes there (into cold winter without anything) and German settlers settle there. Similar was into 1942 at Zamojszczyzna (luckily polish partizans stopped Germans).

Beetwen 1946-1948 Poland sent most of remaining Germans from it's territory to Germany. Some of they died, but it simplay can't be even compare with Nazist behavior. There were much less died Germans than Poles and most of them was killed by Russian or Jewish officers from NKWD or "polish" secret police(good example would be Salomon Morel).
Poles did not want kill these Germans, they simply want safe country without that nazist minority (remember that into eastern germany nazist had highest support). Other argument was German semi partizans-semi criminal bands attacking polish civilians (Werwolf).

When most of the Germans became killed? Into 1944/45, when they meet Red Army. Do not mix Polish Army with Red Army. Red Army soldiers liked killing German civilians, but I'm not suprised. Before reached Germany they marched by Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, saw burning villages and some concentration camps. Polish soldiers were not killing civilians, despite they had much reasons like Stutthoff, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Majdanek, Rogoznica.

Author of that one big liar which you mentioned earlier claims that died from 500.000 to 3.700.000 Germans - looks like he is real idiot! There were absolutely no 3.700.000 Germans in Poland into 1946 -not more than 2.000.000 - 2.500.000. 1.900.000 might refer to all Germans on the west of Oder into 1941. But remember that "some" of Germans living at Volga or Batlic States were killed by Russians or sent to Gulag.

So I think that we can start our discussion from 500.000 "killed by Poles" according to you source - what happened to them?

Answer is very simple.
1) Many local people living at Pomorze Zachodnie or Gorny Slask were count by Germany as Germans. But by Poland they were being count as Poles and they weren't sent to Germany. So that when Germany started counting "Germans", about 500.000 were not find. They or their ancestors are living into their homes.
2) Your author tell that on the east of Oder there were no German left.
It's a joke because there is 300.000 German minority into Dolny Slask (Lower Silesia) - and into late 60-ties much more than 100.000 left Poland and went to Germany.
If you connect points 1 and 2 - you will find what happened with your 500.000.

I'm not telling that no Germans were killed. Some of them were. But Poland is hunting their murderers. Sadly we can't do it - we have unexpected problem:)
Some of them (really big part) are Jews (Salomon Morel), and Israel don't want send them here:) I don't think you expect us invading Israel:)
Some of them are living into USA or Britain (like Helena Wolińska - murderer of heroes).

Half of Poland used to be Germany - you mean half of Poland which Germany conquered into 1772 or 1793. Germany had stolen our territories and into 1945thief became punished.

Germans from Balkans, Baltic states or Russia - not polish job.

Jedwabne is city on Podlasie province. Poles murdered there about 200-400 Jewish citizens. I don't remember well when but I think it was into 1941 or 1942. It was crime against humanity and these people should be punished. I know that there is investigation into polish prosecutor's office to find who exactly killed these Jews ( I mean which persons). That city is example what racism can do even with small community. I'm personally very sad about Jedwabne, but it was one of the few exeptions. I was living into place when no one supported Germans and everyone supported Country Army.


In the end please remember
1)Western Poland is Poland ,was Poland and will be Poland.
2)Forcing Germans to leave Poland was rather act or mercy than crime - Russians would rather kill them.
3)Jedwabne was crime commited by Poles
4)Comparing with Holand. Half of Holland used to be Spain - should it be Spain again? Spain has exactly the same rights like Germany to western Poland.


It's my last statement towards this issue - I don't think you agree with me but sadly German propaganda during last 50years washed Europeans minds very well.

[Stig]

Tarrak, do we have a rule on nationalists?
People should discuss issues and agree to things. Not say it's all lies, if you want to do that become a politician.
Saying an entire article is a lie.
Coming with that they conquered something 200 years before, yeah sure. Germany didn't excist then.

4)Comparing with Holand. Half of Holland used to be Spain - should it be Spain again? Spain has exactly the same rights like Germany to western Poland.

That was 400-500 years ago, get alive m8. This really isn't healthy