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  1. #31

    Default Re: How to defend with arbaless part 2 - Hill defence

    2. Defending Hills
    2.1 Why hills are your friend

    Defending hills with arbalests is your dream battle. It doesn’t get much easier than this. Providing you have 6 or more units of arbalests and at least 5 infantry to string together a screen then you can win against most enemies. If you have the full half hex hill defence with durable screening troops and enough arbalests to reinforce with, then you will win against anything (even 8000+ golden horde nightmares on expert game setting).

    Part 1 of this guide discussed the basic concepts and arbalest, the composition of your army, and the battle phases. This part will show the ideal formations to use, and some fine detail about managing them in the battle.

    In summary; there are only 4 key rules to stick to, and the rest you can learn as you go:
    1. Build a half hex screen protecting 2 groups of ranked arbalests on a hill at the map edge
    2. Do not move off the hill
    3. Manage your arbalests in 2 groups, left and right, to easily control massed fire mid battle
    4. Do not move off the hill….. no really …..I mean it

    Hills add hugely to your defensive strength, here’s how:
    1. Arbalests shoot in a low flat trajectory. It’s very hard to get concentrated arbalest fire on one target on a flat battlefield, as the rear ranked units cannot see a clear line of fire to the target. Hills allow the rear units to shoot over the heads of the front units, allowing massed fire.
    2. Hills also allow the screening units to be formed up in front of the arbalests, so the enemy has no easy path to melee your fragile missile units
    3. Hills add range and accuracy to your arbalests firing downhill, and decrease the range and accuracy of the enemy missiles firing uphill. You’ve already got a localised firepower advantage, no matter what missiles they bring to the battle. The altitude advantage just makes any missile duel totally one sided.
    4. They have to walk up the hill and get tired to melee your screen.
    5. Your troops get a morale bonus sitting on the hill
    6. If they do charge your screen, they won’t get up to full speed up the hill (depending on the steepness), so won’t get their full charge bonus (on very steep hills they won’t get any bonus).
    7. Once any melee stats, your screening troops get a bonus fro attacking from up hill
    8. In the unlikely event you do need to charge your screen at them, your troops will find it easy to push the enemy downhill, thus gaining the “pushback bonus”, and enjoying their full charge bonus for more than one combat round.

    The map edge is also very important. A mediocre hill against a map edge is better than a steep round hill in the middle of the map. When you set up, the red “formation circle” within which you are allowed to place troops will probably only give you access to one map edge. Pick the best hill you can find, even if its just a slight rise. You’ll need to avoid setting up in a forest, but nearby forests are not the end of the world. They will block your field of fire, but the enemy still has to exit the forest to get to your screen. The forest will slow their advance, break up their formation, and they will probably route their cavalry around it not through it, so you get to shoot up their army in sections, rather than having the whole thing line up and charge you all at once.


    2.2 The basic half hex hill defence formation

    I’m going to assume that your army is a fairly generic catholic army made up of:
    8 Arbalests
    6 Halberdiers
    1 medium cavalry (e.g. obsolete Feudal knights, Mounted sergeants, Polish retainers, valoured up Jinnettes)
    1 High period Royal knights – the general

    For the battle itself I normally position the camera over the hilltop, at the rear of my formation, looking at the enemy line of approach, pointed downhill so I can see most of my screening line and the front rank or arbalests. This way I can supervise most of the melee and all of the firing without having to move the camera.



    Setting up the units:

    1. Arbalests.
    Set these up first, as they will define your formation, and show you the area that your screening troops need to cover. The unit guide by Frogbeastegg has an excellent picture shoeing how to arrange 2 ranks of crossbow style troops on a hill. Basically if you move the camera to a position in front of your formation, and you can see the feet of the rear rank over the heads of the front rank, then they have a clear field of fire. If not, then space the ranks out a bit more until it works.

    Set the units like this:
    • Each arbalest unit will be arranged as a 30 man wide, 2 rank deep formation, facing the enemy line of approach.
    • Close formation. Loose foramtion does give better sighting through the unit for rear rank troops, but the formation as a whole ends up getting H-U-G-E, and its impossible to screen it all effectively. You also loose the concentration of fire.
    • Hold formation (+2 defence if they get into a melee, -2 attack – but who cares, the screening troops will clear any penetration of your formation, the arbalests need to keep shooting)
    • Hold position. This is very important. If the unit is not set to hold position, then it will move to orient itself for the best filed of fire for the target it has at that moment. This can mean you loose a lot of firing time as the arbalests are moving instead of shooting, and your beautiful clean firing formation gets all out of shape, with arbalest lines crossing each other and sticking out in front of the screening line. You end up with high friendly fire casualties, and arbalests getting killed in melee – not good.
    • Fire at will. This way if you fail to notice an idle unit in the middle of the chaos of battle, it will pick a likely target and shoot it. As arbalests take so long to exhaust their ammunition, its better to have the firing constantly at something random, instead of idle waiting for you to manually give them the optimum target. You will of course be managing them to shoot at the right target most of the time. It also meant that the arbalests will engage the lead enemy units as they some into range; this is your cue to pay attention and start choosing targets.
    • Grouped into 2 groups of 4 units each. There will be a left flank group and a right flank group. When you direct their fire mid battle you will be selecting an entire group and massing its firepower onto one unlucky target. All this take 2 mouse clicks. Take care to check which group (left or right) in the unit display at the bottom of the battle screen corresponds to which group on the ground. It’s easy to get crossed over in the set up, and you don’t want to be ordering your left group of arbalests to fire at targets on the right flank and vice versa. Once you’ve finished the full set up just select one group before the start of the battle, and notice which actual units have their standard flags wiggling up and down. This is the group you have selected, so now you know which group is on which side of your formation.

    2. The Screening troops

    The screening troops are not really there to inflict massive melee casualties. They’re there to buy time for the arbalests to fire as many volleys as possible into the enemy. They do this in 2 ways:

    1. Offering no easy path to attack the arbalests. This way the enemy mill around in the killing zone trying to feint and lure to disrupt your formation. You of course ignore this and reward their cunning tactic by shooting them up as fast as you can. This is why I prefer Halberdiers as screening troops. They have no real weakness against any particular troop type. Spears as screen tend to invite a charge by swordsmen. Swordsmen as troops tend to invite cavalry charges. Halberdiers can deal with both, so the AI often delays attacking the screening line for quite a while.

    2. Actually being slow to die in a melee. In pure melee terms your screen is outnumbered. It’s better to take 5 minutes to chop through 1 unit of attacking enemy with very low casualties, than rip through them in 1 minute with higher casualties. You’re not going to get any flanking opportunities anyway, and once you have killed the first enemy unit, the next one behind it can engage your screen. Better to jam up the battlefield in front of your screen with a very slow melee, and shoot up the enemy units as they queue up waiting to join the fight.

    Never leave a gap in the screening line, even if you have to stretch the troop formations very thin.
    Never create a gap unless you are sure you can defeat the local enemy and reform before any other enemy arrive.

    Spear based troops:
    • Set these to be a formation 30 men wide, 3 ranks deep with a short 4th rank to provide replacements into the 3rd rank. This way to get the full spear formation bonus, but stretch the width of the covered area to 30 men, instead of the 25 you normally get with the classic 25 x 4 rank spear unit formation.

    • Close formation, Hold formation (to preserve the formation bonus, and get +2def , -2 attack) and hold position to keep the screen in place. Remember: killing slow and dying slow is better than killing fast and dying fast. This may mean that you get a small melee breaking out one end of the spear formation while the rest of the troops watch. That fine. It’s a small melee, so there is slow dying and slow killing happening. Let it happen. Even if it’s a fight you expect to loose eventually (e.g. Chivalric Men at Arms vs. your Chivalric sergeants), let it happen, and try to drag out the fight as long as possible. Don’t throw extra screening troops at the mêlée unless your spears area about break. If they’re just loosing – fine, leave them to it and carry on shooting. If they’re wavering, then help them out, but this will make holes in your screening line, so managing the battle gets a lot harder, as the enemy will try to rush to holes.

    Swords and militia:
    • These are not ideal, but if you have to do it, set them up in a 2 rank x 30 man close formation, hold position and hold formation. Put then at the front of the formation on the steepest slope in your half-hex. The idea is to invite a cavalry charge, but force it to charge up the steepest hill, along the centreline of your formation, so suffering concentrated fire of 8 head on arbalest units. As long as you catch the cavalry early (as soon as they form up at the front of the enemy army), them chances are the first few cavalry units won’t even hit your screen.
    • There are some occasions (fighting an evenly matched enemy unit, with no other enemy units near the line) that you will want to put your swords onto engage at will, to allow them to fully engage and disperse an enemy unit. You don’t want to let them chase the enemy routers down the hill, and you want to get them formed up again to close the gap in your screening line as soon as possible. This is the weakest part of your line, so inviting further enemy pressure at this point is not ideal.

    Pole-arms

    Billmen and Swiss halberds are not ideal (although +2v billmen from Mercia with a master spearman and armourer bonuses are quite nice :-). Treat them like militia who do well against cavalry.

    Halberdiers are my bulk screening troop of choice.

    • They are reasonably priced, reasonably easy to produce, available to many factions and very very slow to die.
    • Their morale is not great, so I build churches and monasteries in halberd producing provinces before armourers.
    • Non armour piercing enemy foot troops can’t really hurt them, and they will chop them up eventually.
    • Enemy knights can hurt them a little, but with the hillside advantage, the halberds +3 attack and +1 def vs. cavalry and the armour piercing bonus the halberds will dispatch knight faster than their bases stats would suggest.
    • They’re also arrow proof due to the high armour.
    • Their biggest weaknesses are enemy arbalests (which you target with massed fire as a matter of priority while they are at the front of the enemy army – once they get overtaken they can’t see very well to shoot), and enemy pole arms – which are generally slow moving, so take an age to crawl up your hill, so you can shoot them up a lot before they arrive
    • Set up your halberdiers in 2 x 30 troop lines.
    • If you need to stretch the formation to screen all of the hex then do it. A rank of 40 backed by a replacement rank of 20 is acceptable. There is little need for a dense formation to resist a cavalry charge as the hill and the massed fire will have taken the fire our of anything that does arrive at the screening line on horseback. It’s worth noting that a unit of 60 halberdiers can be stretched to cover a 40 man wide space much more effectively than a 100 man unit of Chivalric sergeants.
    • Close formation, hold position, hold formation. You might take them off hold formation in similar circumstances to those for swordsmen, but I rarely do it. Better to drag out the local melee, and rout the rest of the enemy army with massed fire.

    Chivalric foot knights

    You only get 40 men to a unit, but they are like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre version of Halberds. They are just as durable, but kill very fast too, and have sky high morale. If your general was a Chivalric Knight, and you dismount that unit then the effect is even more hyperactively homicidal.

    • I’m quite happy to have a 30 man wide formation with a 10 man replacement rank. Note that this provides the same coverage as a 100 man Chivalric sergeant unit.
    • If the enemy thinks the line looks thin and weak at this point they are in for a rude shock.
    • They re good for screening the corners of the hex. Line them up so they overlap the flank of the other corner unit. That way the other, lower morale unit, gets its flank covered (so gets morale bonus), and the high morale foot night doesn’t need the bonus anyway.

    3. The cavalry

    This includes your general if he’s mounted and not part of the screening troops.
    The cavalry is only there for luring the enemy onto the correct line of approach, and emergency bracing of a failing screen.

    Most of the time you want to keep them well out of the way. They are set in a 4-5 rank deep formation to keep it compact and out of the line of fire of the arbalests, even if they have to fire to the flanks. The cavalry are not deployed in a useful fighting formation; you’re just trying to store them somewhere safe. Knights have a bad habit of getting bored and charging off, so keep them on hold position, hold formation, and be ready to catch them and turn them around if they do charge without orders. They’ll just get in the way of the hail of bolts if they do, and get themselves killed. For very unruly knights try forming them up with their backs to the enemy. They’ll loose their shield bonus against missiles, and get a slight morale penalty, but you’ll have time to turn them around if you do need to attack with them.

    2.3 Off Centre attacks

    It’s a rare battle when the enemy simply marches up to you in a straight line, dead centre and lets you shoot them. Changes are the AI will fancy trying to flank you, or will start the battle in a distant position off centre to you, or the terrain will offer a less steep approach to your position that is off centre. None of this is a problem if you’re ready for it.

    In normal conditions arbalests have an effective field of fire about 45 degrees either side of straight ahead. Beyond that their fire becomes less effective, as the view of the rear rank is closed off by the front rank. Beyond about 75% the front rank are also becoming blocked by the man standing next to them.

    If you follow the basic half –hex defence as shown above, then you’ll have a devastating kill zone of 45 degrees either side of dead centre where all 8 arbalest units can be brought to bear, some ability to fire out to 75 degrees either side, and a narrow gap of 15 degrees against the map edge where you really can’t fire at all, and the enemy can safely close to melee your flank screen.

    Even if they don’t actively flank you, an initial charge from off-centre can spread as the follow up enemy troops walk around the sides of the initial melee to engage, and they can spread all the way up your flank where you can’t fire.

    The solution is shown in the diagram below: at set up, angle both your arbalest groups about 15 degrees towards their respective flanks.



    I’ve shown some contours in red here. This particular hill is steep from the front, but less steep if approached from the side along the map edge. This will tend to make the enemy approach you from one flank or the other, so you need to angle the firing zones out towards the flanks. It is very worthhile trying to lure the enemy using a cavalry unit into the centre zone. Even if you succeed they will almost certainly try to manoeuvre towards a flank, but they will have to do that move within firing range, so will be shot up as they march.

    This angle formation is a good standard to use, as it can deliver solid firepower in any direction, so the enemy don’t really have any options for surprising you or forcing you to redeploy to a different formation. It allows you to keep to the golden formula: they manoeuvre, you shoot.

    If the terrain invites even more obvious flanking, then angle the arbalests further out – up to 30degrees is fine as you will still have a small kill zone for all 8 arbalests covering for the centreline.

    Often you will have a battle where one group of arbalests has far more firing opportunities than the other, and runs low on ammunition. The front unit of the frequent firing group will run dry first. Simply run them to the back of the formation, and then withdraw them to allow reinforcements. At the same time run the rear arbalest unit from the other group to take the position of the retreated unit. If you can afford it, stop shooting during this manoeuvre to avoid friendly fire accidents, but if you’re hard pressed then keep shooting, you’ll only loose a few men. This way the lightly pressured flank will loose firepower where it’s not needed, and you can keep maximum fire going into the heavily pressed flank.

    Asymmetric formations

    On some battle maps it will be very obvious which direction the enemy will want to approach from. Defending a hill that has a ridgeline leading to it will funnel the enemy along the ridgeline, as they try to attack with the minimum altitude disadvantage. Where this direction of approach is not dead centre you will want to skew your formation towards the direction of approach.



    Some things to note about this set up:
    • The arbalests are pointed in the direction of the enemy threat. Group 2 on the right will fire more often at good targets, so will run out of ammunition first.
    • It is worth trying to lure the enemy more to the left using the cavalry. Once the cavalry gallop back behind the screen the enemy will probably march back up to the ridgeline, but under heavy fire
    • Most melee is likely to happen on the right, so the general in on the right to offer close morale and physical support to the halberdiers
    • Our best halberdiers (most valour) are positioned to receive the brunt of the enemy assault.
    • The left flank looks weak. The halberdiers are stretched thin to cover the line, and the group 1 arbalests do not have good firing angles to the left flank. This is mitigated in two ways. 1: it’s a very steep slope for the enemy to attack up. 2: the group 1 arbalests are actually arranged so that the left end of each unit line is much lower down the hill than the right, so if the unit has to fire at a target far to the left then the troops to the right end of the line can see over the heads of the lower troops to the left. It’s nowhere near as effective as firing forwards, but they can thin out an enemy unit flanking to the left. If you do get a lot of pressure on the left there will be room and time to rotate the rear 2 arbalest units in group 1 anti-clockwise to face the threat and fire down the steep slope with a good view.

    Next time ... fine tuning the hillside defence, including.....
    forests
    hillside slope profile
    getting stuck in the middle of the map

  2. #32
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Another excellent write-up, MeglaGnome!

    I'm particularly interested in your next installment, as I've always been a bit baffled by the following situation: What do you do if the only hill on the map (or rather, the only hill the defender has access to) is also heavily wooded? Do you still use it, even though your missile units will be hindered? Or do you place your men in a more open area, even if it's flatter? Either way, you're choosing between the lesser of two evils.
    Last edited by Martok; 11-20-2006 at 07:20.
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  3. #33
    Kavhan Member Kavhan Isbul's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Superb guide, MeglaGnome, and I am really looking forward to your next installments, especially to the one which will deal with a flat land with forest patches, such as Lithuania for example.

  4. #34
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Great guide MeglaGnome! Enjoyable read as well as useful. I found out that this - fairly simple - tactic works superbly well, even when the circumstances are not perfect. I managed to win a battle in my Serb-campaign having only 2 units of arbalesters, 1 unit of halberdiers, 2 units of Vo- sorry, can't remember the full name , the ones that look like billmen anyway, 2 units of horse archers, 2 units of the Vo-cavalry and 1 unit of armoured spearmen against a pretty superior Hungarian army (tooks some heavy casualties though, as the Huns had some 6 units of Pavise crossbowmen and 1 unit of Mounted crossbowmen, which ultimately forced me to attack them instead).
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  5. #35

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    The next guide will be a while....

    I have a hous to buy

    Lithuani is indeed very challenging, and also an important bottleneck... so I will be covering it.

  6. #36
    Kavhan Member Kavhan Isbul's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    MeglaGnome, I tried your guide under some unusual circumstances, in the Pike and Musket Mod, and it worked great. I think you are absolutely right - it will work perfectly under any circumstances and I can perfectly see how you can kill thousands of enemies (and not just peasants) on expert without a single casualty. As long as you have a hill. Now I am really eager to see the enxt part about woods and flat provinces (or both, as in the case of Lithuania).

  7. #37
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    In flat terrain provinces, eight demi-culverins are a good replacement for the arbs. They fire right over your infantry screen and really rake the enemy, even at considerable range. I had one enemy unit rout to my side of the map and the DC's were able to pivot 180 degrees and continue to fire.
    With eight culverin, three Chivalric Sergeants, four Steppe Heavy Cav and a peasant 9*(another story), I was even able to attack a larger force of Golden Horde. The guns killed 200 Mongols and their leader before they ran out of ammo. I routed what was left. I withdrew the gun crews, so I could have brought on eight more units, if I had needed them.

    It looked like this:
    https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/...Mongols%20Run/
    Last edited by Agent Miles; 01-15-2007 at 19:55.
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  8. #38
    Kavhan Member Kavhan Isbul's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    I do not think you can bring artillery as reinforcements.

  9. #39
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Correct. I meant eight units, other than artillery, could have then entered the battle once the guns were out of ammo.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  10. #40
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Hmmmm, I always thought artillery reinforcements arrived as crew, without the weapon. Never tested it, though, so I could be wrong. I always place them at the end of the reinforcement queue, anyways.
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  11. #41
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    As this thread has more or less developed into a battle-discussion thread, I could just ask here i guess.
    Lately I have, much thanks to MeglaGnome's guides, developed a basic strategy for battles, that indeed works very well, but gets a bit dull and repetative in the long run.

    In Early it goes like this:

    R S S S S R
    A A A A
    C G C

    S=Spear units of any sort
    A=Archers
    C=Cavalry
    G=General
    R=Random (mostly FMAA, Militia Sergeants or other good infantry).

    And in High/Late I usually use MeglaGnome's tactics adapted to the present terrain - arbs in front if the land is too flat - and with other polearms than Halbs if possible. I sometimes use good spear units (Swiss armoured pikemen or Latin Auxillaries), but that means no major difference.

    If I play with horse archers in (which I do more and more often now, as I've finally learnt to handle them), I place them away from the main body of the army, to harass the enemy's rear. Of course, this tactic comes in as many shapes as there are battles, but that's the basic line-up I use. It has proved to be highly effective (particularly against the Horde, who lack good infantry to break my polearms/spears), but as I've already stated, it gets repetative after a while.
    On the positive side is that this way of fighting makes unit producing for each province (except those specialised for certain units, like Ile de France for CK and CFK) very easy. Slot 1: Spear/Polearm. Slot 2: Archer/Arbalest. Repeat in slot 3 and 4, and in slot 5 you can place either a cavalry unit or another good infantry unti (like CMAA).

    Anyway, so, do you people have any other tactics that differ from such a "simple but effective" lineup as mine? If so, please share them.
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  12. #42

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Personally I wouldn't deploy in quite that fashion though I do use many of the tactics cited. The biggest no for me is edge camping (as per diagram). I find this to be a big exploit that the AI can't deal with, so I try not to position my formation that close to the map edge. Also Halberdiers deployed as a screen instead of Chivalric Sergeants, which is what I would use in such a case doesn't make that much sense to me, unless you've got a terribly good general I wouldn't be relying on them. If the Halberdiers were charged from several fronts by a decent higher valour cavalry, they will probably take considerable losses and break. Armoured up CS would hold the line and have a rank bonus. They die slowly and allow you to bring on many reinforcements of other types while they are still "in service". Really it depends on what you're facing. Nesting the arbalesters in that manner doesn't always pay off either. It depends greatly on the contours of the hill. You may find them shooting each other or the screen. I prefer to deploy arbs in an in-line formation up front, with a line of chivalric sergeants directly behind them, swords behind them and flanking troops such as Halbs or Billmen on the wings, with some reserve cavalry and the general near the back. The whole formation forms a kind of blunt crescent. If woods are available some polearms or other flanking troops may be placed there. If the AI is silly enough to charge the arbs, or if they come under heavy fire, then they will skirmish and I will redeploy the CS forward of their position. Once the cavalry are pinned, the flankers can do their dirty work, the reserve cav can then chase down the routers. Nine times out of ten the AI goes into Benny Hill mode (rout, return, rout, return etc). Works for me anyway!
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  13. #43
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Last edited by Agent Miles; 01-08-2007 at 19:26.
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  14. #44
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Yeah, the crescent-shaped formation is a classic one, "closing the circle" behind the enemy. I've never been a fan of spear units once polearms are available though. Spears break easily when attacked by CMAAs or even Halberdiers.
    Halbardiers can take some serious pounding (and are pretty much immune to all missiles apart from arbalests and longbows) before routing, especially if they come from a province with a church at the very least (+1 Morale to a unit with 0 morale makes a lot of difference). Adding to that, they are better for the final mop-up than spears are (in case any enemy unit is still standing to fight). But of course, I tend to use other polearms than Halbs if possible.

    Realised my "picture" of my formation was a bit unclear, so I drew this masterpiece to illustrate it better:

    Red is spears etc. etc.
    Sometimes I place the green guys/infantry in a straight line with the archers if the terrains does not allow them to "slope".

    Hehe, over-teched crap units is among the funnier parts of the game
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  15. #45

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocentius
    Yeah, the crescent-shaped formation is a classic one, "closing the circle" behind the enemy. I've never been a fan of spear units once polearms are available though. Spears break easily when attacked by CMAAs or even Halberdiers.
    Halbardiers can take some serious pounding (and are pretty much immune to all missiles apart from arbalests and longbows) before routing, especially if they come from a province with a church at the very least (+1 Morale to a unit with 0 morale makes a lot of difference). Adding to that, they are better for the final mop-up than spears are (in case any enemy unit is still standing to fight). But of course, I tend to use other polearms than Halbs if possible.

    Realised my "picture" of my formation was a bit unclear, so I drew this masterpiece to illustrate it better:

    Red is spears etc. etc.
    Sometimes I place the green guys/infantry in a straight line with the archers if the terrains does not allow them to "slope".

    Hehe, over-teched crap units is among the funnier parts of the game
    I have this thing about using the right unit for the right job. e.g. as the Turks a line up of JHI instead of Saracens would probably be better but at the same time wouldn't feel right...
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

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  16. #46
    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Overall it wokrs quite well in sp, although i prefer having greater freedom with units, ie, horse archers to tire and basically occupy my attention, instead of all standing still

    i also dont like putting my line near the edge, firstly because its unfair on the ai, but alsoo because if units do rout they dont have time to rally, i also dont like having units quite so packed together to avoid chain routs and mass damage from ranged

    i always put my ranged in front of my inf, basically out of habit from mp, this means my inf are at full strength to face any enemy, and give the ranged units more open fire (they can just run behind inf when enemy charge)

    the problem with the cresent shape (from mp, not really sp) is that the enmy can just concentrate its best sword units at the centre, and hold the rest of the line with spears, so central unit eventually breaks causing gaps, the corners of unitts can also be vulnerable... when facing cresent like formations i like to have a lot of cav go to one flank and try to either flank the enemy or draw the units (in green on small diagram) out of position to cause chain, when attacking hills it can also be fun to attack the front of the line and then get units to follow until the line becomes more disorganized etc.

    (i dont really like that type of formaton btw )


  17. #47
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    I have this thing about using the right unit for the right job. e.g. as the Turks a line up of JHI instead of Saracens would probably be better but at the same time wouldn't feel right...
    Pah! Who needs tactics when you have JHI!

    I once wanted to test the full effect of JHIs, so I decided to cheat instead of slooowly building up to them, as I wasn't attempting a serious campaign. Anyway, within a few years, I had an army of 16 units of JHI with gold armour and all the morale boosts available. I put them under a 2 star general by giving one of those titles to one of the units basically, I didn't want to waste space on a mere Sipahi of the Porte and then let them mop up around the black sea, Balkans, the Adriatic and finally Rome. Although the enemy fled much of the time, and I never stayed to besiege a castle, I had a few "interesting" battles. Seems like the years of the mid 14th century was a BAD time to live in Balkans.
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  18. #48
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Ha, speaking of the Turks and different tactics, I had one of my best battles in a long time today.
    I was playing as the Turks in late, and was in pretty good state when a massive Crusade arrived in Trezibond. I had a good setup of units (including a couple of JHI) while the crusaders were mostly crap units, I recall them having no less than 5 units of Spanish Jinettes, a pretty hopeless unit against Turcoman Horses...
    Anyway, what was so special about this battle was the map itself. It was either a hillycoastal or mountainscoastal map (I'll have to check which map it was) with a nice, curved, hill about in the middle of the map, ideal for your army. The hill was hard to flank with steep slopes towards the ocean and wooded areas and impassable ground (map edge) on the other flank.Placing my army along the outline of the hill, I achieved some kind of S-shaped army that worked surprisingly well. Rather than wasting time trying to explain, I'll show it by yet another masterpiece of mine:

    Red being either JHI or SI, blue Ottoman infatnry (ie archers), brown AHC, dark green Turcoman Horse and light green my general. I know there are too many units in the pic, it's only their for explaining, not for an accurate account of the battle.
    Perhaps my lineup wasn't perfect, but it worked just fine. As the approach for the enemy was so short I didn't risk my THs by putting them up front and saved them for the rout instead. Anyway, there would have been no space for them to either retreat nor flee if I would have.
    Anyway, from the citadel-like position that my general had, I could pepper all the enemies who moved into the "crescent". I put my peak units (JHI) to defend my general and attract the enmy to go for the weaker parts of the formations. Whenever the Jinettes came to close, I charged with my AHC and drove them off and then quicjly retreated back. After a few miserably failed attacks I finally got the enemy general and then it was all just a rout that lasted for a couple of minutes. My formation didn't brake or waver the slightest during the battle untill I ordered chase.
    It's not easy being a man, you know. I had to get dressed today... And there are other pressures.

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  19. #49
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Well done, Innocentius! I have to admit I don't think I've ever seen a battle formation like that before, however. Was that simply how the countour of the hill was shaped then?
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  20. #50
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocentius
    Anyway, so, do you people have any other tactics that differ from such a "simple but effective" lineup as mine? If so, please share them.
    I see no Horse Archers in your line-up. HA's are my favourite missile troops - not just the Turcoman version, but any kind of HA that is available.

    They always operate separately from my main foot soldiers, harassing the enemy's nastiest units and pulling his formation apart before the battle starts. The latter aspect is more important than the number of 'early deaths' and possible morale penalties I wreak upon him.

    My HA's start at a different point of the map than the rest, always pretty close to the enemy lines, but taking height and possible venues for withdrawal into account. I work them in couples (or trio's), one couple on the left flank and one on the right. Once your HA's have killed 10-20% of some enemy unit, the enemy General will send Spears, Heavy Infantry or even Cavalry after them. In the latter case, I let my HA's lure the enemy horsies into my own line of Spears which will can them for next week's breakfast.

    In a defending role, I can beat a regular Byzantine army with Kataphraktoi, Byzantine Infantry, Trebizonders and Pronoiai into submission with a good number of Horse Archers plus some decent Spears and a half-decent General. The point being that once the enemy reach my line of battle, their formation is torn up and their main units are seriously worn down and quite / very tired.

    In 'Paint' it looks something like this, with the HA's in bright red:

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  21. #51
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    I see no Horse Archers in your line-up. HA's are my favourite missile troops - not just the Turcoman version, but any kind of HA that is available.

    They always operate separately from my main foot soldiers, harassing the enemy's nastiest units and pulling his formation apart before the battle starts. The latter aspect is more important than the number of 'early deaths' and possible morale penalties I wreak upon him.

    My HA's start at a different point of the map than the rest, always pretty close to the enemy lines, but taking height and possible venues for withdrawal into account. I work them in couples (or trio's), one couple on the left flank and one on the right. Once your HA's have killed 10-20% of some enemy unit, the enemy General will send Spears, Heavy Infantry or even Cavalry after them. In the latter case, I let my HA's lure the enemy horsies into my own line of Spears which will can them for next week's breakfast.

    In a defending role, I can beat a regular Byzantine army with Kataphraktoi, Byzantine Infantry, Trebizonders and Pronoiai into submission with a good number of Horse Archers plus some decent Spears and a half-decent General. The point being that once the enemy reach my line of battle, their formation is torn up and their main units are seriously worn down and quite / very tired.

    In 'Paint' it looks something like this, with the HA's in bright red:

    Excellent post. Like you I use HA whenever i can to break up enemy formations, it really works well when they are on the offensive. If I have a real cheap HA unit I will use it for the harrassing role (when the AI is defending) in addition to missle absorbtion. The Ai will often commit several missle units to combat your 1 HA unit.

    This helps alot when you have to climb hills with infantry to get at the AI. My issue with HA is simply that if its a low valor unit, or a low command unit they will often run on you (they do rally eventually) this kills this harassing strategy.
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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  22. #52
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    My issue with HA is simply that if its a low valor unit, or a low command unit they will often run on you (they do rally eventually) this kills this harassing strategy.
    Indeed. Generally speaking, only HA's with Valour 2 plus a 1/2 Valour bonus from the General can really operate behind enemy lines or close to the enemy front line.

    However, my point (and yours, I daresay) is that most people play far too conservatively, and the following is probably no news to you and other veterans.

    The various formations suggested in FrogBeastEgg's Beginner's Guide are truly meant for beginners. They are defensive, almost porcupine-ish formations that leave no room for maneuver, flexibility or a reversal of initiative during the battle. They may be perfectly alright if you want to play safe with Catholic armies wearing sensible shoes and mackintoshes, but I prefer my battles a little spicier.

    Anyway, if you fight with more or less equal armies in Expert mode, any high-Command AI General will take merciless advantage of such anal formations. He (it) will order his troops in formation according to the rock, paper and scissors rule. E.g. if you have a Spear line out front, the enemy will send in his Swordsmen first; if you have Swords out front, he will send in his Cavalry; &cetera. This leaves you with no other option but to reorganise with Hannibal ante portas. If he approaches your battle line obliquely as well, you're truly cooked...

    I usually put some Archers (most likely Horse Archers) out front to discourage any premature approach by the enemy. The rest of my army hangs back in various tiers, which I compose into a proper battle line in the run-up to battle, and according to the situation. A good battle comes in stages that leave room for regrouping and/or withdrawal. Don't give away your game at the start.

    A good way to help yourself to 'loosen up' is to fight steppe battles involving lots of funny horsies, fast footmen and missiles. Try fighting with Cavalry units only, it gives you a fast learning curve.

    EDIT

    Another exercise consists of playing custom battles with a few units at the time, just to get the hang of the movements and rhythm of various units. Once you develop a feel for this, you don't have to calculate during your battles anymore; you take the right decisions intuitively.

    Try fighting a Valour 0 unit of Byzantine Infantry with a Valour 0 unit of Mounted Crossbows. If you autocalc, this is a sure loss. If you command your MC's, it is a sure win.

    Shoot the Byz up on Skirmish, withdrawing from hilltop to hilltop at an easy pace to wear them down. As soon a they turn away from you*, charge into the rear of their formation. The combined bonuses will allow you to kill, say, a dozen of them. Then withdraw (not in 'Hold Formation', which will never allow your horses to disengage, but in 'Engage at will'!) and start shooting on Skirmish again. This attack will cost you about 6 horsemen, but the remaining unit will raise its valour to 1. Keep shooting from heights, wait till the Byz are temporarily immobile before you fire, give your MC's time to aim and fire. All this helps you to get the most kills. By the time the Byz are down to about 50, make sure you are positioned between them and their edge of withdrawal. They may rout any moment. When that moment approaches, charge into them again, from the flank or at least obliquely. This will break them and leave you with 100 dead Byzantine Infantry on the field and a unit of 30 Mounted Crossbows with Valour 2 to toy with in future.

    * They will turn their backs on you sooner or later. When the AI registers that they need to recover, it will send them to regroup on a hilltop where they 'feel safe'. That's when you should strike.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 01-17-2007 at 12:39.
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  23. #53

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    My issue with HA is simply that if its a low valor unit, or a low command unit they will often run on you (they do rally eventually) this kills this harassing strategy.
    This is referred to as the "benny hill" code (slapstick british comedy often featuring the man himself engaging in speeded up motion chase sequences). After alot of skirmishing and constant retreating the unit will start taking a morale penalty which gets steadily worse until they rout. You can reset it by simply ordering them to attack then call it off a split second later and continue as before.
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

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  24. #54
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    This is referred to as the "benny hill" code (..)
    I like that. I can hear the corny theme music in the background.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  25. #55

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    My standard battle tactic: Find a nice big hill. Armored units-Archers-Arbalesters. Aim the arbalesters at the enemy king. Nuff said.
    Iä Cthulhu!

  26. #56
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    My standard battle tactic: Find a nice big hill. Armored units-Archers-Arbalesters. Aim the arbalesters at the enemy king. Nuff said.
    You make it sound really exciting..

    Smaller battles with unequal odds and totally different units on either side are much more interesting, particularly if they require careful maneuvering and the occasional change of rhythm in your attack.

    Try something else. For instance try a running battle against a solid Catholic army with only some Horse Archers, a unit of Kwarazmians and two units of Spears. It's amazing what you can do to split them up, inflict casualties and get out again. If you listen carefullly, you can hear the AI burn its circuits in frustration in the background.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  27. #57
    Believer of Murphy's Law Member Sensei Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    My standard battle tactic: Find a nice big hill. Armored units-Archers-Arbalesters. Aim the arbalesters at the enemy king.
    Nuff said. You make it sound really exciting..
    I have to agree with Adrian II on that one. I once said if I wanted to play an easy game where the battles didn't require much thought, I'd play a Catho faction. Wind 'em up and turn 'em loose.

    My most memorable battles were the ones where I held off a gigantic army, with 4-5 units through nail biting seat of your pants tactics. The least memorable ones were when I pranced out my 9 star gen who is leading a 16 unit army that all have gold plate and gold weapons. Those get boring to the point of auto-calcing.

    OT: Speaking about 9* gens and gold plated armies, Adrian II, can I end my Expert, GA, English Campaign? I'm about 50 years from the end, I have at least 100 points more than anyone else, a ludicrously huge army, and 2mill in the bank. My biggest adversary (the Hungarians) have been reduced to their starting provences and short of starting a war with the Pope there is nothing to do. You and Vladimir encouraged me to try an Expert game, so I feel its only fair to ask for release before I quit altogether.
    Every weapon has evolved from the same basic design, either a rock or a sharp pointy stick.

  28. #58

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    I couldn't agree more. I've had some horrendous battles with constantly routing demoralised and exhausted troops having to rallied and brought back to face the enemy yet again. Against all the odds I've pulled it off, which is extremely rewarding. Getting troops like arab infantry to gain valour and turning them into a decent fighting force is also satisfying.
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

  29. #59
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    I've had some horrendous battles with constantly routing demoralised and exhausted troops having to rallied and brought back to face the enemy yet again.
    Those are always the best. So, you too know the feeling after you have beaten off 2100+ enemies, when you are down to 16 very tired Archers with near-empty quivers, one Valour 7 Royal Knight (totally exhausted), 21 Spearmen (exhausted) and 18 Vikings (totally exhausted) - and then the enemy marches in those last 200 Peasants in his reserve...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
    Adrian II, can I end my Expert, GA, English Campaign? I'm about 50 years from the end, I have at least 100 points more than anyone else, a ludicrously huge army, and 2mill in the bank.
    It doesn't sound like you need anybody's permission, Sensei Warrior.
    But for what it's worth: you are hereby honourably discharged.

    Try the Polish for a change. Learn to bleed.

    P.S. Respect, man, for a 'first' in Expert you have done extremely well.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  30. #60

    Default Re: writing battle tactics/strategy guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Those are always the best. So, you too know the feeling after you have beaten off 2100+ enemies, when you are down to 16 very tired Archers with near-empty quivers, one Valour 7 Royal Knight (totally exhausted), 21 Spearmen (exhausted) and 18 Vikings (totally exhausted) - and then the enemy marches in those last 200 Peasants in his reserve...
    I remember playing as the Egyptians defending georgia from the mongols in a battle that lasted for over an hour (it could have been longer, I rarely watch the clock) involving about 1500 men on my side and around 5000 on the mongol side, with enemy reinforcements constantly coming on long after mine had dried up. By the end I had a few shattered remnants of Saracen Infantry (had stood their ground to the end and, unlike the missiles and cavalry, had only been relieved once), Nizaris (empty quivers, totally exhausted from charging out of trees and attacking anything that moves and looks vaguely mongolian again and again), a remnant of an AHC unit, and 1 Ghulam bodyguard - the general (), in total about 200 men, no more. I had the nizaris hiding in the woods with the saracens up front, all totally exhausted of course. The hill was thick with corpses. These men had been holding out by the skin of their teeth, facing wave after wave. The last wave had caught them short and almost decimated them. The Nizaris had saved the day with a well timed charge and some serious meleeing with the MHC! Then the MHAs and MWs arrived in large numbers... Luckily they had already suffered such a defeat they these "tail enders" withdrew immediately and my men won the day.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-17-2007 at 14:11.
    “The majestic equality of the laws prohibits the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges, begging in the streets and stealing bread.” - Anatole France

    "The law is like a spider’s web. The small are caught, and the great tear it up.” - Anacharsis

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