Promising news about the ai

[hoom]

I agree with the general upbeat nature of comments

Rather than debating the nature of best defense in an impossible situation (sometimes charging out in a blaze of glory will be be the highest chance of a win out of defeat, other times turtling is best), I'm much much more interested in the AI keeping formation right up to battle

One of the biggest problems with TW AI in the past has been that it breaks formation to engage so that where you might lose terribly against a particular AI army had it kept formation in attack, it breaks up & attacks piecemeal resulting in a victory for the player.
Particularly so in the case of a pike phalanx army.
If this is now fixed, then single player is now going to be much harder I think

Now if the claims of improved diplomatic AI also stand up & it is actually possible to have an angry AI cowed into a reluctant peace by a string of defeats, then this will be a game really living up to the billing!

[Lusted]

This has got to be the best news about the ai EVER!!!!!!

[danfda]

^^^
Agreed. Terrific post, and I commend him on his willingness to post something like that. Shows they do care.

This thread just got me really psyched for Nov. the 16th.

[shifty157]

Thats some really good stuff to hear. Perhaps our constant complaining has finally gotten to them? Though i dont think we're placing such a high bar for CA. I think CA is placing it for themselves. When you create such an amazing game with such tactical potential to be explored and exploited, average mediocre RTS AI just wont cut it. You need AI that is above and beyond.

Like Palamedes said. Up until now the AI was purely calculated on an individual unit basis without any real concern for the overall strategy. This sufficed for STW and MTW because tactics in these periods were generally much less rigid and much more based around charging disorganized mobs of men (obviously there are some exceptions but on the whole they are rather few and far between). In RTW however the weakness of this type of AI became extremely apparent because tactics and formations in the ancient were very complex and very rigid and the units themselves were very specialized for a single particular task within the larger whole of the army. The army had to work together as it was meant to otherwise the battle would be lost. This fact was most noticeable with the phalanx armies that absolutely required the entire army to hold one solid battleline. The AI's inability to work together to this extent simply made such extremely specialized and rigid tactics impossible.

From what ive seen of the AI in custom battles on the first demo it has improved very well in working as a single army. When my army placed on a defensive position with a cliff (or other impassable terrain) in front of it the AI will now attack up one side of the cliff with the majority of its force while sending a smaller flanking force around the other way. ANother instance that i was rather impressed with was a setup where the AI was attacking me. The majority of its force began in front of me but two units started to my flank beyond a small town. The town had a single intersection and was directly along the AI's path to my position so i sent two units to the town and set them up to either side of the intersection. In RTW the AI unit would have marched straight down the center of street and into the intersection allowing me to flank him from either side. In this case however the AI went out of its way around the town and completely bypassed my little trap. By the time i realized that there was no chance of the AI marching into the town as i had hoped it was too late and the main force of the AI had already come up and cut my ambushing units off from the rest of my army. In an effort to reconnect them with my battleline i sent them to attack the AI flank so that they could fight their way through, extend my battleline, and roll the AI flank at the same time. Unfortunately for me the AI intercepted them in mid charge with a reserve unit and proceeded to surround and overwhelm them. I must say that i was very surprised and very impressed with this classic blitzkreig maneuvre.



Overall im very happy with the developers being more open about what theyre doing. Its not like theyre releasing coding secrets that other developers can take advantage of. I really cant think of any negative impact that most may have had. Quite the contrary everyone has nothing but praises and happiness. I hope CA is seeing the very large benefit of having open and informative relations with theyre community. It seems theyre finally coming out of their shell and seeing the light.

I have to be honest and say that six months ago i was so disappointed with RTW that i decided not to but MTW2 until after i started getting everyone's impressions on the forums. I didnt want to buy another game that i would only play through to completion twice. But since then i have to say that because CA has been a bit more open about its developement ive been won over. I preordered the game a couple weeks ago and now i cant wait for it to come. Itll be like christmas came early this year.

Keep up the tireless improvement CA. Its makinga real impact.

[Cheetah]

Well, what can I add? Long live Palamedes!!!

[Dooz]

Wow, I'm completely taken aback... by the comments of course, and by personal experience just now. I just played 3 custom battles with the cool stuff released at the TWC and to my amazement, lost 2 out of 3 battles. And the only one I won was down to the wire... wow... It was so much fun, I can't even believe it. The army cohesion is completely awesome, everything... so... good... Ok so I'm gonna' stop now, as you can see I can't even gather words to form decent sentences, I'm just so happy and anxious for the game to come out. Yay.

[hoom]

When my army placed on a defensive position with a cliff (or other impassable terrain) in front of it the AI will now attack up one side of the cliff with the majority of its force while sending a smaller flanking force around the other way.

Shogun & MTW AI was entirely capable of this sort of Maneuvre.
Its rare but the RTW AI can do it too if it feels it has the advantage.

[Orda Khan]

This was a promising post. I appreciate CA offering information like this; it does not spoil surprises, it does the complete opposite. The very thought that the AI is a capable opponent makes SP begin to sound interesting. I can't wait to start creating Historical Battles

.....Orda

[shifty157]

Shogun & MTW AI was entirely capable of this sort of Maneuvre.
Its rare but the RTW AI can do it too if it feels it has the advantage.

Actually it may have looked like it but having just played a shogun campaign a couple weeks ago if troops go up either side of a cliff its onlt because each unit is taking the fastest rout to you. So units on the left flank will go up the left side and units on the right flank will go up the right side depending on what the shortest distance is.

In MTW2 its clear that the AI does it on purpose because it sends the flanking force around the other side even if going around the cliff means going well out of their way. I also think that the number of units that the AI decides to send is inversly proportional to the distance. So the farther away the other side of the cliff is, the fewer units the AI will send.

[Wandarah]

Great news.

But I think we probably need to start a 'Save Palamedes' fund. Surely this post isnt sanctioned.

[AussieGiant]

All I have to say is...

http://www.blueharvest.net/sound/misc/impresive.wav

[professorspatula]

A good bit of positive marketing there to get onside the few doubters who were still unconvinced after the recent batch of reviews. Hopefully AI will become more and more of a priority now the graphical side is pretty excellent and perhaps no longer needs the emphasis put on it in previews and what not. Ideally the AI will at some stage have varying personalties, with advance tactics ignored by armies led by non-experienced or idiot commanders. We could be a fair way from that though. For now I'll settle for an AI that gives the player a few headaches.

[Vladimir]

Let me get this straight, you're surrounded by horse archers so you're going to stand there and get shot at until you're all dead? You're one unit against an army of Horse Archers. You somehow think that these thousands of arrows arn't going to cripple, maim and kill your soldiers and add to that you think you'll have the advantage in the melee against their charge and subsequent flank? What school did you guys learn game theory from?

Don't run, you'll just die tired.

[Mount Suribachi]

Brilliant post! This is exactly the kind of thing that the TW community has been dying to hear, full marks to Palamedes for sharing that with us.

I've been saying it repeatedly the last month, its very obvious to me that CA are trying really hard to win back the trust of the community. I for one congratulate & thank them for this new found trust in, and interaction with, the TW fanbase

[LadyAnn]

I like everything he said except the part about standing around getting shot being better then charging.

A lone infantry unit standing around getting shot has a 0% chance of living, as opposed to your 1 in a million shot with Charging the Horse Archers. Thus, You must Charge.

There is an option: withdraw and fight another day :P

Annie

[ElectricEel]

I like this version of CA :D

Annie

Yes, this has certainly made me much more optimistic about MTW2.

[hoom]

There is an option: withdraw and fight another day

Not in the situation postulated which is a single unit of heavy infantry trapped defending a city against an army of horse archers.
Its a lose lose situation.
That unit can't win by chasing down the much faster horses but it also can't win by sitting there getting shot up.

I'd say probably the best the AI could do in that situation would be to have the defending unit attempt to hold the wall breach & go down in combat there.

[ProudNerd]

I was really tempted to post a new thread just to make sure everyone got the news but it makes more sense for me to post in here.

I just read an incredibly insightful post by one of the developers (Palamedes) over at the official forums. He was posting in reaction to the negative reaction people have had over the AI in the older (Build 47) demo.

This is amazing stuff; amazing as in this is the single most informative post on the AI I have ever seen coming from one of the developers...

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...art=41&stop=59

mother of god...best post ever...that sounds fantastic! Thanks heaps for posting this. Its wonderful when dev teams listen :D

[ProudNerd]

For along time I cursed CA in ways that wouldn't get me warnings on this forum, upset that a game with so much potential turned out so wrong (RTW).

Palamedes post may make me rethink CA.

You echo my thoughts exactly. It angered me that such an amazing game was going down the tubes but ca has really made me turn that idea around...

[JR-]

i am delighted with the content of Palemedes post.
i am equally delighted that CA allowed this community interaction.

as a person who was/is constantly delighted with M:TW, and utterly indifferent to R:TW, i have very high hopes for M2:TW.

can't wait

[Trax]

I too like this new CA, I may seriously consider buying the game after all.

[Orda Khan]

Anyway tomorrow I will set up a custom battle between a Mongol hit and run army and a slow moving infantry heavy European army, ER can play it and I will ask if he can give you an accurate assessment of where AI is at.

So? Any news?

........Orda

[Lusted]

I spoke to ER yesterday, he's still trying to sort out permission to post some news as the guy in charge of it wasn't there yesterday.

[LadyAnn]

Not in the situation postulated which is a single unit of heavy infantry trapped defending a city against an army of horse archers.
Its a lose lose situation.
That unit can't win by chasing down the much faster horses but it also can't win by sitting there getting shot up.

I'd say probably the best the AI could do in that situation would be to have the defending unit attempt to hold the wall breach & go down in combat there.

In this case, tough luck. :)

Anniep

[Orda Khan]

Any news on that report?

.....Orda

[Furious Mental]

Are you an optimist? Maybe it means the horse archer AI is so good the guy is embarrassed to say what happened.

[Orda Khan]

......Orda

[Furious Mental]

I'm not an optimist either. But a man can dream...

[screwtype]

Palamedes is very naughty to tell us all that, I prefer to be pleasantly suprised by a tough AI and I don't really want to be told in advance what the AI will or will not do in response to my moves. I like to learn these kinds of details myself, by trial and error. That's what makes games fun!

All the same I think it's good he's reassured the community about this "AI armies doing nothing" problem. I just don't think he should have gone into such detail about it. It would have been enough to have said "don't worry, we are aware of that problem and it's been fixed". But good on him for trying to keep us informed, there hasn't been enough of that from CA in the past.

[blahblahblah]

Sweet, dam I wonder if I can stand up to those AIs when I saught war against them with 2000+ men.