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Thread: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Given some of the recent threads concerned with religious/civic discourse and its participants I thought the following may be of interest.

    The following is adapted from a lecture by Daniel L. Dreisbach given September 12, 2006.

    Dreisbach, a Professor of Justice, Law and Society, is a professor in the School of Public Affairs at American University in Washington, D.C., as well as the William E. Simon Fellow in Religion and Public Life in the James Madison Program at Princeton University.


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    "No metaphor in American letters has had a greater influence on law and policy than Thomas Jefferson’s "wall of separation between church and state." For many Americans, this metaphor has supplanted the actual text of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and it has become the locus classicus of the notion that the First Amendment separated religion and the civil state, thereby mandating a strictly secular polity.

    More important, the judiciary has embraced this figurative language as a virtual rule of constitutional law and as the organizing theme of church-state jurisprudence. Writing for the U.S. Supreme Court in 1948, Justice Hugo L. Black asserted that the justices had "agreed that the First Amendment’s language, properly interpreted, had erected a wall of separation between Church and State." The continuing influence of this wall is evident in the Court’s most recent church-state pronouncements.

    The rhetoric of church-state separation has been a part of western political discourse for many centuries, but it has only lately come to a place of prominence in American constitutional law and discourse. What is the source of the "wall of separation" metaphor so frequently referenced today? How has this symbol of strict separation between religion and public life become so influential in American legal and political thought? Most important, what are the policy and legal consequences of the ascendancy of separationist rhetoric and of the transformation of "separation of church and state" from a much-debated political idea to a doctrine of constitutional law embraced by the nation’s highest court?

    The Wall that Jefferson Built

    On New Year’s Day, 1802, President Jefferson penned a missive to the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut. The Baptists had written the new president a "fan" letter in October 1801, congratulating him on his election to the "chief Magistracy in the United States." They celebrated his zealous advocacy for religious liberty and chastised those who had criticized him "as an enemy of religion[,] Law & good order because he will not, dares not assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ." At the time, the Congregationalist Church was still legally established in Connecticut and the Federalist party controlled New England politics. Thus the Danbury Baptists were outsiders'a beleaguered religious and political minority in a state where a Congregationalist-Federalist party establishment dominated public life. They were drawn to Jefferson’s political cause because of his celebrated advocacy for religious liberty.

    In a carefully crafted reply, the president allied himself with the New England Baptists in their struggle to enjoy the right of conscience as an inalienable right-not merely as a favor granted, and subject to withdrawal, by the civil state:

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

    This missive was written in the wake of the bitter presidential contest of 1800. Candidate Jefferson’s religion, or the alleged lack thereof, was a critical issue in the campaign. His Federalist foes vilified him as an "infidel" and "atheist." The campaign rhetoric was so vitriolic that, when news of Jefferson’s election swept across the country, housewives in New England were seen burying family Bibles in their gardens or hiding them in wells because they expected the Holy Scriptures to be confiscated and burned by the new administration in Washington. (These fears resonated with Americans who had received alarming reports of the French Revolution, which Jefferson was said to support, and the widespread desecration of religious sanctuaries and symbols in France.) Jefferson wrote to these pious Baptists to reassure them of his continuing commitment to their right of conscience and to strike back at the Federalist-Congregationalist establishment in Connecticut for shamelessly vilifying him in the recent campaign.

    Several features of Jefferson’s letter challenge conventional, strictly secular constructions of his famous metaphor. First, the metaphor rests on a cluster of explicitly religious propositions (i.e., "that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship"). Second, Jefferson’s wall was constructed in the service of the free exercise of religion. Use of the metaphor to restrict religious exercise (e.g., to disallow a citizen’s religious expression in the public square) conflicts with the very principle Jefferson hoped his metaphor would advance. Third, Jefferson concluded his presidential missive with a prayer, reciprocating his Baptist correspondents’ "kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man." Ironically, some strict separationists today contend that such solemn words in a presidential address violate a constitutional "wall of separation."

    The conventional wisdom is that Jefferson’s wall represents a universal principle concerning the prudential and constitutional relationship between religion and the civil state. In fact, this wall had less to do with the separation between religion and all civil government than with the separation between the national and state governments on matters pertaining to religion (such as official proclamations of days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving). The "wall of separation" was a metaphoric construction of the First Amendment, which Jefferson time and again said imposed its restrictions on the national government only (see, e.g., Jefferson’s 1798 draft of the Kentucky Resolutions).

    In other words, Jefferson’s wall separated the national government on one side from state governments and religious authorities on the other. This construction is consistent with a virtually unchallenged assumption of the early constitutional era: the First Amendment in particular and the Bill of Rights in general affirmed the fundamental constitutional principle of federalism. The First Amendment, as originally understood, had little substantive content apart from its affirmation that the national government was denied all power over religious matters. Jurisdiction in such concerns was reserved to individual citizens, religious societies, and state governments. (Of course, this original understanding of the First Amendment was turned on its head by the modern U.S. Supreme Court’s "incorporation" of the First Amendment into the Fourteenth Amendment.)

    The Metaphor Enters Public Discourse

    By late January 1802, printed copies of Jefferson’s reply to the Danbury Baptists began appearing in New England newspapers. The letter, however, was not accessible to a wide audience until it was reprinted in the first major collection of Jefferson’s papers, published in the mid-19th century.

    The phrase "wall of separation" entered the lexicon of American law in the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1878 ruling in Reynolds v. United States, although most scholars agree that the wall metaphor played no role in the Court’s reasoning. Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite, who authored the opinion, was drawn to another clause in Jefferson’s text. The Reynolds Court, in short, was drawn to the passage, not to advance a strict separation between church and state, but to support the proposition that the legitimate powers of civil government could reach men’s actions only and not their opinions.

    Nearly seven decades later, in the landmark case of Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the Supreme Court "rediscovered" the metaphor and elevated it to constitutional doctrine. Citing no source or authority other than Reynolds, Justice Hugo L. Black, writing for the majority, invoked the Danbury letter’s "wall of separation" passage in support of his strict separationist interpretation of the First Amendment prohibition on laws "respecting an establishment of religion." "In the words of Jefferson," he famously declared, the First Amendment has erected "‘a wall of separation between church and State’. . . . That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach." In even more sweeping terms, Justice Wiley B. Rutledge asserted in a separate opinion that the First Amendment’s purpose was "to uproot" all religious establishments and "to create a complete and permanent separation of the spheres of religious activity and civil authority by comprehensively forbidding every form of public aid or support for religion." This rhetoric, more than any other, set the terms and the tone for a strict separationist jurisprudence that reached ascendancy on the Court in the second half of the 20th century.

    Like Reynolds, the Everson ruling was replete with references to history, especially the roles played by Jefferson and Madison in the Virginia disestablishment struggles in the tumultuous decade following independence from Great Britain. Jefferson was depicted as a leading architect of the First Amendment despite the fact that he was in France when the measure was drafted by the First Federal Congress in 1789.

    Black and his judicial brethren also encountered the metaphor in briefs filed in Everson. In a lengthy discussion of history supporting the proposition that "separation of church and state is a fundamental American principle," an amicus brief filed by the American Civil Liberties Union quoted the clause from the Danbury letter containing the "wall of separation" image. The ACLU ominously concluded that the challenged state statute, which provided state reimbursements for the transportation of students to and from parochial schools, "constitutes a definite crack in the wall of separation between church and state. Such cracks have a tendency to widen beyond repair unless promptly sealed up."

    Shortly after the Everson ruling was handed down, the metaphor began to proliferate in books and articles. In a 1949 best-selling anti-Catholic polemic, American Freedom and Catholic Power, Paul Blanshard advocated an uncompromising political and legal platform favoring "a wall of separation between church and state." Protestants and Other Americans United for the Separation of Church and State (an organization today known by the more politically correct appellation of Americans United for Separation of Church and State), a leading strict-separationist advocacy organization, wrote the phrase into its 1948 founding manifesto. Among the "immediate objectives" of this new organization was "[t]o resist every attempt by law or the administration of law further to widen the breach in the wall of separation of church and state."

    The Supreme Court frequently and favorably referenced the "wall of separation" in the cases that followed. In McCollum v. Board of Education (1948), the Court essentially constitutionalized Jefferson’s phrase, subtly and blithely substituting his figurative language for the literal text of the First Amendment. In the last half of the 20th century, the metaphor emerged as the defining motif for church-state jurisprudence, thereby elevating a strict separationist construction of the First Amendment to accepted dogma among jurists and commentators.

    The Trouble with Metaphors in the Law

    Metaphors are a valuable literary device. They enrich language by making it dramatic and colorful, rendering abstract concepts concrete, condensing complex concepts into a few words, and unleashing creative and analogical insights. But their uncritical use can lead to confusion and distortion. At its heart, metaphor compares two or more things that are not, in fact, identical. A metaphor’s literal meaning is used non-literally in a comparison with its subject. While the comparison may yield useful insights, the dissimilarities between the metaphor and its subject, if not acknowledged, can distort or pollute one’s understanding of the subject. If attributes of the metaphor are erroneously or misleadingly assigned to the subject and the distortion goes unchallenged, then the metaphor may alter the understanding of the underlying subject. The more appealing and powerful a metaphor, the more it tends to supplant or overshadow the original subject, and the more one is unable to contemplate the subject apart from its metaphoric formulation. Thus, distortions perpetuated by the metaphor are sustained and even magnified. This is the lesson of the "wall of separation" metaphor.

    The judiciary’s reliance on an extra-constitutional metaphor as a substitute for the text of the First Amendment almost inevitably distorts constitutional principles governing church-state relationships. Although the "wall of separation" may felicitously express some aspects of First Amendment law, it seriously misrepresents or obscures others, and has become a source of much mischief in modern church-state jurisprudence. It has reconceptualized-indeed, misconceptualized-First Amendment principles in at least two important ways.

    First, Jefferson’s trope emphasizes separation between church and state?unlike the First Amendment, which speaks in terms of the non-establishment and free exercise of religion. (Although these terms are often conflated today, in the lexicon of 1802, the expansive concept of "separation" was distinct from the narrow institutional concept of "non-establishment.") Jefferson’s Baptist correspondents, who agitated for disestablishment but not for separation, were apparently discomfited by the figurative phrase and, perhaps, even sought to suppress the president’s letter. They, like many Americans, feared that the erection of such a wall would separate religious influences from public life and policy. Few evangelical dissenters (including the Baptists) challenged the widespread assumption of the age that republican government and civic virtue were dependent on a moral people and that religion supported and nurtured morality.

    Second, a wall is a bilateral barrier that inhibits the activities of both the civil government and religion-unlike the First Amendment, which imposes restrictions on civil government only. In short, a wall not only prevents the civil state from intruding on the religious domain but also prohibits religion from influencing the conduct of civil government. The various First Amendment guarantees, however, were entirely a check or restraint on civil government, specifically on Congress. The free press guarantee, for example, was not written to protect the civil state from the press, but to protect a free and independent press from control by the national government. Similarly, the religion provisions were added to the Constitution to protect religion and religious institutions from corrupting interference by the national government, not to protect the civil state from the influence of, or overreaching by, religion. As a bilateral barrier, however, the wall unavoidably restricts religion’s ability to influence public life, thereby exceeding the limitations imposed by the First Amendment.

    Herein lies the danger of this metaphor. The "high and impregnable" wall constructed by the modern Court has been used to inhibit religion’s ability to inform the public ethic, to deprive religious citizens of the civil liberty to participate in politics armed with ideas informed by their faith, and to infringe the right of religious communities and institutions to extend their prophetic ministries into the public square. Today, the "wall of separation" is the sacred icon of a strict separationist dogma intolerant of religious influences in the public arena. It has been used to silence religious voices in the public marketplace of ideas and to segregate faith communities behind a restrictive barrier.

    Federal and state courts have used the "wall of separation" concept to justify censoring private religious expression (such as Christmas creches) in public, to deny public benefits (such as education vouchers) for religious entities, and to exclude religious citizens and organizations (such as faith-based social welfare agencies) from full participation in civic life on the same terms as their secular counterparts. The systematic and coercive removal of religion from public life not only is at war with our cultural traditions insofar as it evinces a callous indifference toward religion but also offends basic notions of freedom of religious exercise, expression, and association in a pluralistic society.

    There was a consensus among the founders that religion was indispensable to a system of republican self-government. The challenge the founders confronted was how to nurture personal responsibility and social order in a system of self-government. Tyrants and dictators can use the whip and rod to force people to behave as they desire, but clearly this is incompatible with a self-governing people. In response to this challenge the founders looked to religion (and morality informed by religious faith) to provide the internal moral compass that would prompt citizens to behave in a disciplined manner and thereby promote social order and political stability. The literature of the founding era is replete with this argument, no example more famous than George Washington’s statement in his Farewell Address of September 19, 1796:

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens . . . . And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion . . . . [R]eason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    Believing that religion and morality were indispensable to social order and political prosperity, the founders championed religious liberty in order to foster a vibrant religious culture in which a beneficent religious ethos would inform the public ethic and to promote an environment in which religious and moral leaders could speak out boldly, without restraint or inhibition, against corruption and immorality in civic life. Religious liberty was not merely a benevolent grant of the civil state; rather, it reflected an awareness among the founders that the very survival of the civil state and a civil society was dependent on a vibrant religious culture, and religious liberty nurtured such a religious culture. In other words, the civil state’s respect for religious liberty is an act of self-preservation. The unfortunate consequence of 20th-century jurisprudence is that the First Amendment, designed to protect and promote a vital role for religion in public life, has been replaced with a wall of separation that, in the hands of the modern judiciary, has restricted religion’s place in the polity.

    Legacy of Intolerance

    In his recent book, Separation of Church and State, Philip Hamburger amply documents that the rhetoric of separation of church and state became fashionable in the 1830s and 1840s and, again, in the last quarter of the 19th century. Why? It accompanied two substantial waves of Catholic immigrants with their peculiar liturgy and resistance to assimilation into the Protestant establishment: an initial wave of Irish in the first half of the century, and then more Irish along with other European immigrants later in the century. The rhetoric of separation was used by nativist elements, such as the Know-Nothings and later the Ku Klux Klan, to marginalize Catholics and to deny them, often through violence, entrance into the mainstream of public life. By the end of the century, an allegiance to the so-called "American principle" of separation of church and state had been woven into the membership oaths of the Ku Klux Klan. Today we typically think of the Klan strictly in terms of their views on race, and we forget that their hatred of Catholics was equally odious.

    Again, in the mid-20th century, the rhetoric of separation was revived and ultimately constitutionalized by anti-Catholic elites, such as Justice Hugo L. Black, and fellow travelers in the ACLU and Protestants and Other Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, who feared the influence and wealth of the Catholic Church and perceived parochial education as a threat to public schools and democratic values. The chief architect of the modern "wall" was Justice Black, whose affinity for church-state separation and the metaphor was rooted in virulent anti-Catholicism. Hamburger has argued that Justice Black, a former Alabama Ku Klux Klansman, was the product of a remarkable "confluence of Protestant, nativist, and progressive anti-Catholic forces . . . . Black’s association with the Klan has been much discussed in connection with his liberal views on race, but, in fact, his membership suggests more about [his] ideals of Americanism," especially his support for separation of church and state. "Black had long before sworn, under the light of flaming crosses, to preserve ‘the sacred constitutional rights’ of ‘free public schools’ and ‘separation of church and state.’" Although he later distanced himself from the Klan on matters of race, "Black’s distaste for Catholicism did not diminish." Black’s admixture of progressive, Klan, and strict separationist views is best understood in terms of anti-Catholicism and, more broadly, a deep hostility to assertions of ecclesiastical authority. Separation of church and state, Black believed, was an American ideal of freedom from oppressive ecclesiastical authority, especially that of the Roman Catholic Church. A regime of separation enabled Americans to assert their individual autonomy and practice democracy, which Black believed was Protestantism in its secular form.

    To be clear, diverse strains of political, religious, and intellectual thought have embraced notions of separation (I myself come from a faith tradition that believes church and state should operate in separate institutional spheres), but a particularly dominant strain in 19th-century America was this nativist, bigoted strain. We must confront the uncomfortable fact that the phrases "separation of church and state" and "wall of separation," although not necessarily expressions of intolerance, have often, in the American experience, been closely identified with the ugly impulses of nativism and bigotry.


    In conclusion

    Jefferson’s figurative language has not produced the practical solutions to real world controversies that its apparent clarity and directness led its proponents to expect. Indeed, this wall has done what walls frequently do?it has obstructed the view, obfuscating our understanding of constitutional principles governing church-state relationships. The rhetoric of "separation of church and state" and "a wall of separation" has been instrumental in transforming judicial and popular constructions of the First Amendment from a provision protecting and encouraging religion in public life to one restricting religion’s place and role in civic culture. This transformation has undermined the "indispensable support" of religion in our system of republican self-government. This fact would have alarmed the framers of the Constitution, and we ignore it today at the peril of our political order and prosperity."
    Last edited by Pindar; 10-20-2006 at 17:33.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Come on now, Pindar. My civics teacher in the 8th grade said that the First Ammendment requires all politicians to be atheists, we just haven't had 100% enforcement of it yet. He said that all the founding fathers were atheists and never intended for anyone with any religious beliefs whatsoever to even be allowed to vote, let alone run for office. He said you may not even be allowed to defend yourself in a court of law, own property or take custody of your children. He worked on the John Kerry campaign and he's the local chief of the NEA for my school district, so he must know what he was talking about.

    Remember folks

    If you pray, you must delay (filing for office)
    If you kneel, you must repeal (your name from the ballot)
    If you tithe, you're not politically alive
    If you chant, you can't
    If you attend church here in the present, you must remain a peasant!

    Reprinted, without permission, from the NEA handbook on how to guide kids away from religion.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 10-20-2006 at 18:24.
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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    In this day and age I must ask you, DC, was that... serious?

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    As much as it will break Leftist hearts across this great land of ours...
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Come on now, Pindar. My civics teacher in the 8th grade said that the First Ammendment requires all politicians to be atheists, we just haven't had 100% enforcement of it yet. He said that all the founding fathers were atheists and never intended for anyone with any religious beliefs whatsoever to even be allowed to vote, let alone run for office. He said you may not even be allowed to defend yourself in a court of law, own property or take custody of your children. He worked on the John Kerry campaign and he's the local chief of the NEA for my school district, so he must know what he was talking about.

    Remember folks

    If you pray, you must delay (filing for office)
    If you kneel, you must repeal (your name from the ballot)
    If you tithe, you're not politically alive
    If you chant, you can't
    If you attend church here in the present, you must remain a peasant!

    Reprinted, without permission, from the NEA handbook on how to guide kids away from religion.
    Bollocks.

    If that's the case then why does every Presidential candidate go out of his way to be filmed attending church and generally acting pious?

    Because he woudn't stand a hope in hell of getting elected if he didn't publicly display his deep and profound love for Jesus.

    The political situation is quite the opposite of what you just described.

    If Jesus you do not revere, please don't run for office here.
    If you don't worship, take yourself on a long trip.
    If you do not pray, please go away.
    If you don't read the Bible, you're not politically viable.
    If you don't go to church, voters will leave you in a lurch.

    There, that's more like it. I'm particularly proud of finding a rhyme for "Bible."

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    For the French Republic, the separation between State and Churches is a pillar, a “marque de fabrique”, a distinction of the Republic.
    France is proud of this distinction. French don’t pray God in Schools, Parliament, Army, Courts and others institutions.
    Religions belong to the private life and can’t interferer in the public/civic life.

    Debate of the law and the vote took place from the 21st of March 1905 t0 the 3rd of July 1905

    Origins:
    In 1516, the Concordat of Bologne is signed between Francois the 1st and the Pope Leon X. It limited the intervention of the Pope in the Church of France.

    1682: Vote by the Gallicane Church of the Declaration of the Four Articles (temporal independence of the King, limitation of the Pope authority by the Councils and the customs of the King and the Church of France, possibility to contest the Pope decisions by a General Council)

    1789: Article 10 of the Human Right Declaration recognised freedom of Religions, all religions.
    The nationalisation (confiscation) of all Clerical properties, dissolution of all clerical congregations and associations were enforced, those involved in charity and teaching excepted.

    1792: Secularisation of civil administration: marriage, birth certificate and death certificate became secular. Religious marriage became without legal importance.

    1830: Catholicism stopped to be State Religion

    1869: 1st appearance of the concept of Separation between State and Churches in the programme of Gambetta in the Programme of Belleville.

    1879-84: With the Republic, heavy “laicisation” of France: no more compulsory of the Sunday break, cancellation of public prays, cancellation of the religious swear in court, laicisation of the schools, neutrality in public school in religious matters, laicisation of the teachers, law of divorce re-established, cancellation of prays in the Assembly.

    1902-1905: Anti-Clerical politic of Emile Combes Government.

    1905: Law of the Separation between the State and Churches (plural).

    Modern developments:
    1989: Polemic following the Islamic Hidjab.
    1994: Religious symbols have to be discrete…
    2004: All religious symbols are banned in schools.
    2005: Commemoration of the 100 years of the law.

    I don't see the danger of the seperation. With the talibans, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan I see the danger of State Religions.
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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    I don't see the danger of the seperation. With the talibans, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan I see the danger of State Religions.
    Interesting point. One can see the harm in a state the denies religion, as with the Soviet Union and the Khmer Rouge. And one can easily see the danger of modern theocracy, as with Saudi and the Taliban.

    But could someone raise an example of a state that failed due to the Western tradition of separating the church from the state? Please post if you can think of one, 'cause I'm coming up empty.

    [edit]

    I guess "state that failed" is the wrong way to put it. Attempt at better phrasing: Could someone raise an example of an oppressive/dysfunctional state that came from the Western tradition of separating the church from the state?
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-20-2006 at 22:20.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Note to Alex and Goofy, two folks who usually seem to get my humor, I apologize for forgetting my [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags. Won't let it happen again.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Note to Alex and Goofy, two folks who usually seem to get my humor, I apologize for forgetting my [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags. Won't let it happen again.
    Sorry Don. Maybe my humor wasn't as obvious as it should have been either. I was trying to respond in kind, but maybe it did come across as a bit bitter...
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    If you pray, you must delay (filing for office)
    If you kneel, you must repeal (your name from the ballot)
    If you tithe, you're not politically alive
    If you chant, you can't
    If you attend church here in the present, you must remain a peasant!
    Yup, there's nothing like declaring yourself to be an atheist to get the voters behind you. Why, I can't think of a politician at the state or federal level who isn't a card-carrying god-hater. Voters sure love them some atheists.

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    You must have missed where I said that this was what the NEA was preaching in the schools but it hasn't been implemented properly yet, Lemur. Okay, maybe my hyperbole was a bit over the top, but really fellas, lighten up... To be perfectly honst... I was trying to channel Johnny Cochrane with the whole ryhming bizness... Can I get an amen?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    If you post, you must host (the consequences)
    If you must joke, you must accept the pokes
    If you edit, we won't forget it
    If you use advanced formatting tools, you will be batting fools
    Don't make the post if you can't eat the toast.

    (Oh, and as requested, Amen.)

  13. #13
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Allelulia, brother Lemur. That's what I'm talkin bout...
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    The conclusion is dubious: religion as "indispensible" to the upholding of the Republican (as in, Republicanism, not the party, for the partisans) ideal? Sounds like just another repetition of the old caveat "Protestant Ethics (of America)", which doesn't hold much water to me at all.

    The only truly large "benefit" that might possibly comes out of the domination of this religious ideal in the public life of Americans (often confused with the American Dream in general, which I disagree) is an informal code of ethics for public servants. Considering the behaviors of Presidents/Judges/Congressmen/every other public servants out there throughout the history of the United States, I doubt it contributes that much. Moreover, it is entirely possible to develop a separate tradition of ethics by secular means.

    Quite frankly, having seen first-hand, and subject first-hand, to the lack of separation between a religion and a state -- albeit a very mild and tolerant one -- I don't like the idea. While all I "suffered" (if it is even that) were things like kneeling in prayer or studying religions that I did not really believe in, and that such things were mere annoyances equal to all other annoyances of school life, I'd imagine that a truly convinced believer of another religion would be utterly offended to pray -- or for his or her children to pray -- to the deity he or she does not worship -- an inevitability of the joining of the Church and the State.

    I don't even want to go to areas when the ties are so deep the state becomes a theocracy. A theocracy is everything but the modern Western Democracy.

    Truth be told, no atheists ever win high-profile elections in America. Jesus is still every President's personal savior.

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    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    I'm calling the ACLU.... on you two!!!!
    RIP Tosa

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    Banned ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    If you post, you must host (the consequences)
    If you must joke, you must accept the pokes
    If you edit, we won't forget it
    If you use advanced formatting tools, you will be batting fools
    Don't make the post if you can't eat the toast.

    (Oh, and as requested, Amen.)

    oh THank Ye Lemur
    Ame.. Wait, you Ain't god!


    didn't read the whole thing, have to go in a minute,so just making a quick post.


    I think Religion and Goverment can't tangle,then you be having Reglious freaks (no offense) be getting into office and extreme aheists taking over.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Could someone raise an example of an oppressive/dysfunctional state that came from the Western tradition of separating the church from the state?
    U.S.S.R.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    The conclusion is dubious: religion as "indispensible" to the upholding of the Republican (as in, Republicanism, not the party, for the partisans) ideal? Sounds like just another repetition of the old caveat "Protestant Ethics (of America)", which doesn't hold much water to me at all.

    The answer to your question goes back to the sentiment/arguments that were put forward to justify popular sovereignty.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    I was just checking, DC. I wouldn't put that too far past the NEA...

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    This is why it should be seperated.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z91EMFz7j7g
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

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    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Benito Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, and Adolf Hitler were atheist heads of state and proof that, yes, you can develop a separate tradition of ethics by secular means.

    The Reich Concordat with the Catholic Church (1933)

    Art. 32. In view of the special situation existing in Germany, and in view of the guarantee provided through this Concordat of legislation directed to safeguard the rights and privileges of the Roman Catholic Church in the Reich and its component states, the Holy See will prescribe regulations for the exclusion of clergy and members of religious orders from membership of political parties, and from engaging in work on their behalf.

    There is a downside to separating entirely, morality and religion from the politics of the state.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

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    LORD ACTON

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    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    U.S.S.R.
    I don't think it's correct to assert that state and religion were separate in the USSR: it's more accurate to say that Christian Orthodoxy was suppressed by and subordinated to the militantly atheist state.

    The state certainly trespassed in the sphere of the church. In the '20s hundreds of bishops and priests were executed. Most churches, monasteries, and seminaries were nationalized, closed, or destroyed and their possessions confiscated by the regime. Credentialed priests were required to have the sanction of the Soviet government.

    In fact, I think it's more useful to view the USSR as a peculiar sort of theocracy in which the state "religion" was atheistic Marxism. Deviation from the one true faith was treated as a crime or (literally) as a mental disease.
    Last edited by Atilius; 10-21-2006 at 07:30.
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  23. #23
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
    This is why it should be seperated.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z91EMFz7j7g
    Do you think the cameraman was shaking so badly because of trying to hold back a giant belly laugh or was convulsing in extreme abdominal pain from his bowels ready to rupture from the extreme multitude of off key notes?
    RIP Tosa

  24. #24
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    I agree with what the article says. I don't know much of US history, but it seems that the article has the necessary to prove its point.

    Beyond that, I don't really think it needs to go back to watch for traditions, when it's the necessity of everyday lives, particularily in a republic, to express one's ideas, wheter they're political, ideological or religious. Law's have to look more into the circumnstances that surround actuality than into the possibly cristalized traditions of the past.

    Being an outsider I always found it strange to see such a debate happening on the USA. Things like banning public display of religious faith was really crossing the line between separation of state and church, and totally breaking this separation. It's contradictory to talk about a wall, and then break it for the convenience of the same organ wich is supposed to be the restricted one.

    The separation between both, however, is a good thing in my opinion. If we now look back into history, those moments in wich one invaded the sphere of the other turned out to be two kinds of totalitarisms. If we look at the extreme form of both cases (like the teocracies in the Middle Ages, and absolutism in Modern Age and beyond) we'll see that when the spiritual power "swallows" temporary power completely it tends to rule society with an iron fist respecting moral standards and it becomes intolerant, specially of other religions or of no religious people. When the contrary happens, society turns practically amoral, behaving with zealotry towards the law and the respect to the State, "the great cause" is the greatness of the State, as long as you respect the law, wheter just or not, you're being a good citizen or servant.

    Now, I don't agree with some points on the article. First, I don't think it's necessary that a religion exists to spread morality upon the citizens of an State, morality is far much older and has been out of religion since a long time ago persisting in philosophy and ethics. Second, I don't think that the morality preached by religions in general, is completely innocent. Part of this morality is intolerant of progress. However it's necessary for an open debate, that way, at least I believe so, the good ideas, will be left in and the others will not reach actions. As a consequence of this, I don't think that the morality preached by all religions necesarily brings discipline to the subjects.
    Born On The Flames

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    U.S.S.R.
    Are you equating the persecution of religion (as I said, Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge) with the separation of church and state?

  26. #26
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
    Do you think the cameraman was shaking so badly because of trying to hold back a giant belly laugh or was convulsing in extreme abdominal pain from his bowels ready to rupture from the extreme multitude of off key notes?

    I don't know, was probably not a professional photographer but some staff member who snuck in with a camera and then sold it for big $$$$, or maybe he worked for John and was doing John a favor so the moment could be relished by he and his family forever. Either way, its comic gold, and I will forever cherish it.
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

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    Humbled Father Member Duke of Gloucester's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    I don't see the danger of the seperation. With the talibans, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan I see the danger of State Religions.
    Speaking as someone who lives in a country with an official state religion (to which I don't belong), I would say that state religions don't always come with the dangers you associate with the three Islamic nations you identify.
    We all learn from experience. Unfortunately we don't all learn as much as we should.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius
    I don't think it's correct to assert that state and religion were separate in the USSR: it's more accurate to say that Christian Orthodoxy was suppressed by and subordinated to the militantly atheist state...In fact, I think it's more useful to view the USSR as a peculiar sort of theocracy in which the state "religion" was atheistic Marxism. Deviation from the one true faith was treated as a crime or (literally) as a mental disease.
    Communism is not a religion. Atheism is not a religion. The U.S.S.R. was not a theocracy.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Could someone raise an example of an oppressive/dysfunctional state that came from the Western tradition of separating the church from the state?
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    U.S.S.R.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Are you equating the persecution of religion (as I said, Soviet Union, Khmer Rouge) with the separation of church and state?
    I am equating the U.S.S.R. as an oppressive/dysfunctional state that came from the Western tradition of separating the church from the state. Bolshevism is a product of the Western Tradition. It assumed political power in Russia. It separated the church from the state: excised it in fact. The subsequent U.S.S.R. was oppressive and dysfunctional.
    Last edited by Pindar; 10-21-2006 at 09:18.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  30. #30
    Shark in training Member Keba's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    I am equating the U.S.S.R. as an oppressive/dysfunctional state that came from the Western tradition of separating the church from the state. Bolshevism is a product of the Western Tradition. It assumed political power in Russia. It separated the church from the state: excised it in fact. The subsequent U.S.S.R. was oppressive and dysfunctional.
    Communism is a totalitarian regime, pure and simple. The reasons for persecuting religion are two-fold. One, religion can mobilise people and has influence on them. Two, Marx's claims that religion is the opium of the masses.

    While it may have origins in the West's tradition of seperating state from religion, it is in no way an example of, or connected with it.

    And communism was seen as a religion by the higher-ups. Replace religion with communist propapaganda, Marx's teachings and such. You'd be surprised how much indoctrination went on in Communist countries (I believe still does, but the few remaining are weird).

    Yes, communism seperated church from state, but for entirely different reasons, religion (church) was a threat, a large one, therefore, it had to be neutralised.

    Are you advocating the merging of church and state? That a religion followed by some of the population dictate lives for everyone?

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