Posties overstepping their bounds

[Goofball]

As much as I agree with the sentiment of these postal workers, I think they are taking things too far by refusing to deliver these pamphlets. What's next? Refusing to deliver campaign mailouts for politicians they dislike. It is not the job of postal workers to censor peoples' mail.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...2154&t=TS_Home

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Posties vow not to deliver anti-gay mail
Canada Post says job will get done
Oct. 27, 2006. 05:52 AM
GREG JOYCE
CANADIAN PRESS


VANCOUVER—Neither rain, nor hail, nor sleet, nor snow nor refusal to deliver an anti-gay pamphlet will keep the mail from getting through.
That seemed to be the message yesterday from Canada Post in reacting to a brief walkout over the letter carriers union's refusal to deliver a pamphlet the union regards as "homophobic" and "hate mail."
The problem began Wednesday when letter carriers at Station F on the city's east side were told they had to carry the pamphlets or face disciplinary action, said Ken Mooney, the Vancouver local president of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers.
"One person actually refused to touch it and there were others who said they are not going to deliver it," Mooney said.
Canada Post spokeswoman Colleen Frick had a different take, saying the only postie required to carry it on his route was "intimidated" by his colleagues. "He did not refuse it," she said. "He was basically intimidated into not delivering it and that's not appropriate."
The pamphlet is the September edition of The Prophetic Word, published by the Fundamentalist Baptist Mission in Waterford, Ont. The article that spurred the dispute was called The Plague of this 21st Century: The Consequences of the sin of Homosexuality (AIDS).
"It's homophobic," Mooney said. "It's really offensive."
Mooney said the corporation should not be in the business of delivering "hate mail."
Frick said "hate mail" is not a legal term she was aware of and "it's not in the (Canada Post Corporation Act). So we don't speak about mail in terms of this and we're not about to go into the business of defining what hate mail is," she said.
By yesterday, the issue seemed to have cooled but was not settled. Mooney says the 50 letter carriers were told they would not have to carry the pamphlet. But Frick countered that they didn't have to carry it — yesterday. "It will be delivered at some point in the next two days," she said, explaining that the corporation has three days to deliver ad mail from the time it arrives at the depot.
The posties don't have the right to refuse to deliver the mail, she said. The contract between the corporation and the union requires them to deliver mail the corporation deems acceptable. "And this item was deemed such."
She said she was certain the 200 pamphlets would be delivered by a carrier in the depot.
Mooney acknowledged the possibility of disciplinary action if all carriers refuse. "They may want to adjust the attitude of some employees," he said.
A spokesperson for the sender of the pamphlet was not immediately available to comment.

[Don Corleone]

Well, done Goofball. I doubt you remember it, but about 4 months ago, there was a huge broohaha about Scottish firemen being forced to do fire safety booth duty at a Gay Pride festival. At the time, you had claimed if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd still require people to do their duty. I believe I said I thought that was an easy claim to make, as you'd never be called on it. Please allow me to retract my earlier dispersion and salute you for maintaining consistency in your arguments.

[Goofball]

Well, done Goofball. I doubt you remember it, but about 4 months ago, there was a huge broohaha about Scottish firemen being forced to do fire safety booth duty at a Gay Pride festival. At the time, you had claimed if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd still require people to do their duty. I believe I said I thought that was an easy claim to make, as you'd never be called on it. Please allow me to retract my earlier dispersion and salute you for maintaining consistency in your arguments.

Thanks Don.

I remember the thread but I don't remember feeling insulted by anything you said to me, so no worries.

But thanks all the same...

[Brenus]

Er, here in UK, the Postman just informe his customers of their rights. So, sorry, to protect the rights of the custommers should be ok, shouldn't it?

[Goofball]

Er, here in UK, the Postman just informe his customers of their rights. So, sorry, to protect the rights of the custommers should be ok, shouldn't it?

Not sure what you are saying, Brenus.

[Don Corleone]

Uhm, Brenus, I think you misunderstand. This isn't about the rights of the postal patrons, the 'customer' in this sense. It's about the rights of the mail carriers (the service provider), and whether they have to deliver material they find objectionable or not.

[BDC]

The Plague of this 21st Century: The Consequences of the sin of Homosexuality (AIDS)

That's pretty offensive to lots of people. Not just homosexual people. Anyone with HIV, their families, anyone who works with it, a lot of religious people. Not surprising that some refused to deliver it.

[Goofball]

That's pretty offensive to lots of people. Not just homosexual people. Anyone with HIV, their families, anyone who works with it, a lot of religious people. Not surprising that some refused to deliver it.

No argument here. But do you think they should be allowed to carry on refusing, or should they face disciplinary action?

[Prince of the Poodles]

Geez... more anti-gay stuff.

There are so many bad people in the world, why are gay people seen as so horrible?

Why does anyone care what goes on in my bedroom? Why did these people feel the need to write a whole article to condemn me to hell? I havent done anything to them.

Sure there are disgusting, in your face, gay people. They are in a very small minority. Most of us like to keep to ourselves and not bother anyone.

I dont kiss in public, nor do I even hold hands. In fact, even though I could do those things, I try not to show any affection in public because I know that Im in the minority and a lot of people dont like it. I know my place.

I try to fit in and not offend, and this is what I see every day when I check the news... a constant stream of news involving anti-gay activities.

It really makes me sad because I try to be a good person but in so many people's eyes I could be a saint in every other way but Im still a disgusting human being for something I was born with.

Anyway, its not the postal workers job to decide what gets delivered and what doesnt. The sentiment is definitely appreciated though.

[BDC]

No argument here. But do you think they should be allowed to carry on refusing, or should they face disciplinary action?

Hmm, complex question. They're just tools. It should be up to their managers to decide if it's appropriate. But what is appropriate? Ah the horrible mess you end up in immediately when people don't play nice with freedom of speech.

[Incongruous]

If society where people could not write or say anything offensive then these pamphlets would not be delivered because they are going to hurt alot of peoples feelings. But we live in societies of free speech where people can't decide to shut down someone elses view just because they disagree. It's something everyone has consented to and I'll be damned before someone thinks themselves above the rules of society. I would sack the lot of them if they refuse any more. These people make me sick, almost as much as the people spewing that crap.

[Crazed Rabbit]

They are official government employees, they cannot decide what will be carried based on their politics.

Let the offensive baboons make baboons out of themselves.

CR

[Vladimir]

That's pretty offensive to lots of people. Not just homosexual people. Anyone with HIV, their families, anyone who works with it, a lot of religious people. Not surprising that some refused to deliver it.

Yes and homosexuality (I'm assuming it's only the men; It's hard to find a guy that doesn't like hot lesbians ) is offensive to the nutbags sending out the pamphlets. Are we going to let petty emotional concerns stop us from doing our jobs or are we going to retaliate in kind: with free speech!

[Lemur]

There are so many bad people in the world, why are gay people seen as so horrible?

An excellent question, and one to which I have never found a satisfactory answer.

[Vladimir]

An excellent question, and one to which I have never found a satisfactory answer.

It's the extremist, leftist political whackos that are becoming, or are, the face of homosexuality, that most people are reacting to. The "we're having sex so we should be married (for financial benefit)" etc extremists are defining the group. The same can be said for old people or high school kids. Most people really don't care.

[Goofball]

There are so many bad people in the world, why are gay people seen as so horrible?

An excellent question, and one to which I have never found a satisfactory answer.

Why do people view gays as horrible?

That's easy: fear.

Fear that gays spread AIDS.
Fear of oneself being or "becoming" gay.
Fear that one's children may turn out to be gay.
Fear that somebody may think one is gay.
Fear that taxes will go up to pay for the higher health costs incurred by gays.
Fear that the family unit will disintegrate because of gays.
Fear that gays are somehow weaker, and therefor undermine the strength of the nation.
Fear that gays will rape one's children.
Fear that recognizing gay rights means having to recognize the rights of other "perverts."
Fear just because gays are different.

It always comes back to fear. Either direct fear of gays themselves, or just vague fears about their impact on society.

[Vuk]

It has nothing to do with the email being 'homophobic', it has to do with the mailmen (who are federal officials) not doing their job; no, refusing to do their job when ordered to. My dad was a postal worker, and I may be getting a job there during the summer. If people don't want that mail, they can take it up with the people who sent it, and if they refuse to stop sending it, they can file a lawsuit. Postal Workers cannot decide what to deliver and what not to; they deliver what they are given. If my dad played by their principals, no one in my town would get mail from the democratic committee!!

They should all be fired.

[Lemur]

It's the extremist, leftist political whackos that are becoming, or are, the face of homosexuality, that most people are reacting to. The "we're having sex so we should be married (for financial benefit)" etc extremists are defining the group.

By which logic we can conclude that nobody hated or killed gays before they began asking for legal rights. Sorry, this line of reasoning is demonstrably false. Rabid gay-hate is older and deeper than the Stonewall Riots.

Why do people view gays as horrible?

That's easy: fear. [...] Either direct fear of gays themselves, or just vague fears about their impact on society.

This seems closer to the mark. Something that has always struck me is what the police call "overkill." In cases when straight men have beaten and/or killed gay men, they really go overboard. Just look at the Matthew Sheppard case for an example. It seems to indicate a much deeper fear and loathing than simple disagreement about sexual practices and personal rights.

Also look at how well gay-hate plays with the Republican base. That's not an appeal to the Constitutional conservatism of the voters -- it's pulling on something more primal and visceral.

If I may be so bold as to offer reassurance to my fellow straight males: You can't turn gay. It's just not going to happen. I've also been hit on many times by gay men, and let me assure you, all you have to do is say "no," and that's that. They don't somehow get their queerness into you. (And they take rejection far better than a woman. Telling a gay man "no" is infinitely simpler and easier than turning a woman down gently.)

[Don Corleone]

I try to fit in and not offend, and this is what I see every day when I check the news... a constant stream of news involving anti-gay activities.

It really makes me sad because I try to be a good person but in so many people's eyes I could be a saint in every other way but Im still a disgusting human being for something I was born with.

Prince, I can't speak for anyone but me. I am a conservative. Republican is debatable. But I don't hate you. I don't think many folks really do. Despite what Lemur is not so subtly hinting at, every straight male in America doesn't have it in for you.

You and I are going to disagree on issues of policy. Some may be related to your sexuality, some may not be. We're also going to agree on issues. I don't choose friends because they agree with me, and I don't pick enemies because they disagree with me (something Goofball and Lemur should be eternally grateful for).

If you feel threatened, I'm sorry that you do. If it makes you feel any better, my wife and I have a 9 month old daughter (yes, we're those nasty breeders) and I just got a tongue lashing on the T in Boston this past weekend for smooching the missus in public. It's not just gays, people aren't as comfortable with PDA's as the media would have you believe. It's the way it is, deal with it.

Anyways, welcome to the org.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If the pamphlet was anything like Those jack chick tracts on gays, then shame on the postal workers for denying people a good laugh

[Mooks]

Why do people view gays as horrible?

That's easy: fear.

Fear that gays spread AIDS.
Fear of oneself being or "becoming" gay.
Fear that one's children may turn out to be gay.
Fear that somebody may think one is gay.
Fear that taxes will go up to pay for the higher health costs incurred by gays.
Fear that the family unit will disintegrate because of gays.
Fear that gays are somehow weaker, and therefor undermine the strength of the nation.
Fear that gays will rape one's children.
Fear that recognizing gay rights means having to recognize the rights of other "perverts."
Fear just because gays are different.

It always comes back to fear. Either direct fear of gays themselves, or just vague fears about their impact on society.

Not always. I object homosexuality because I find it disqusting. But I really dont care if someone does it or not, not my business.

[Prince of the Poodles]

Goofball, I think you have it right, which is really kind of funny because we are the most harmless people around. "Ooohh Ill destroy you with my keen fashion sense!"

Thanks for the support Lemur and Don Corleone.(I cant believe what happened to you Don. 2 committed people in love starting a family is a beautiful thing!)

I dont think every straight male hates me, but sometimes it can get overwhelming.

Since I found out I could post in this area of the forum, there have been 3 or 4 topics having to do in some way or sort with homosexuality. It can be very frustrating when something as predestined as eye color is such a divisive subject. For some reason I feel the need to defend myself but it can get to be depressing because i am already seen as bad/wrong/disgusting/evil before I even open my mouth or share my opinions in many people's eyes.

It is definitely not a one way street though. There are plenty of in your face, gay pride, loudmouths who are doing their best to polarize people and are in actuality turning people against gays who might have been neutral on the subject.

[Xiahou]

It's not up to postal workers to be censors. They're supposed to deliver the mail, it's not up to them to determine what the content is supposed to be.

Maybe they should start opening mail next to be sure they dont deliver anything objectionable?

[AntiochusIII]

It is definitely not a one way street though. There are plenty of in your face, gay pride, loudmouths who are doing their best to polarize people and are in actuality turning people against gays who might have been neutral on the subject.

Oi! Do you hate Hard Gay!?

Or haado-geeii if you want it really Japanese.

Of the topic, weren't the mail people supposed to not know the content of the mails in the first place, were they?

[Mithrandir]

At first I was completely against the censoring, however then it made me think ...

They are official government employees, they cannot decide what will be carried based on their politics.

Let the offensive baboons make baboons out of themselves.

CR

What if the nazi's had reacted likewise ?

(sure bring in the nazi's )

In this situation though, the folders should have never reached the postal office.

[CountArach]

Oi! Do you hate Hard Gay!?

Or haado-geeii if you want it really Japanese.

Of the topic, weren't the mail people supposed to not know the content of the mails in the first place, were they?

I believe that they were pamphlets and as such it is sort of hard not to read the title of them.

I have nothing against Homosexuals. It is their choice as to what they want to do with their lives. As long as they don't interfere with my choice DIRECTLY, then they can do as they wish. I can never understand why people hate Homosexuals. Fear is a reason, yes, but in a lot of people's cases, it is just moral objections I suppose.

[InsaneApache]

Why do people view gays as horrible?

That's easy: fear.

Fear that gays spread AIDS.
Fear of oneself being or "becoming" gay.
Fear that one's children may turn out to be gay.
Fear that somebody may think one is gay.
Fear that taxes will go up to pay for the higher health costs incurred by gays.
Fear that the family unit will disintegrate because of gays.
Fear that gays are somehow weaker, and therefor undermine the strength of the nation.
Fear that gays will rape one's children.
Fear that recognizing gay rights means having to recognize the rights of other "perverts."
Fear just because gays are different.

It always comes back to fear. Either direct fear of gays themselves, or just vague fears about their impact on society.

I had many an arguement with my (deceased) step-mother over this point. She was old school 'blue rinse' tory and just couldn't get it into her head the difference between pederasty and homosexuality.

Off topic; I've said this before, but I have had some of my best nights out, when I was a teenager, in 'gay' bars and clubs. Not a hint of aggro and an erudite and funny crowd.

"Ooohh Ill destroy you with my keen fashion sense!"

Well it works for Graham Norton.

OT; I have mixed feelings about this one. They have a job to do but they are human beings first and foremost. I, for one, would feel uncomfortable delivering hate male (sic) of any type.

[Banquo's Ghost]

If it makes you feel any better, my wife and I have a 9 month old daughter (yes, we're those nasty breeders) and I just got a tongue lashing on the T in Boston this past weekend for smooching the missus in public. It's not just gays, people aren't as comfortable with PDA's as the media would have you believe. It's the way it is, deal with it.

Oh, I don't know Don. Here in Ireland people caress their Blackberries all the time on the train.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I was going to write 'caress their Palms' but somehow I felt that might get me into trouble...

[Brenus]

“Not sure what you are saying, Brenus.” I neither after reading what happened.

“Uhm, Brenus, I think you misunderstand. This isn't about the rights of the postal patrons, the 'customer' in this sense. It's about the rights of the mail carriers (the service provider), and whether they have to deliver material they find objectionable or not.” Pfew, so I wasn’t so far. When I saw all the thinks about Gays and Homosexuals, I was wondering if I miss some English/American kind of secret language…

So, my objection is still valid. People, the customers, have the right not to be flooded by junk post, whatever origins. So, in UK, you just have the possibility to fulfil a form (delivered by Her Majesty Mail) and you are free of it. If the postmen do not want to deliver that is illegal.
However, the obedience to the law is what all the Nazi claimed at Nuremberg. It was then legal to denounce Jews, so they did nothing wrong. “They are official government employees, they cannot decide what will be carried based on their politics…” was the argument.

I think the postmen get a valid point and don’t want to be put in position of the French Railway (SNCF) which just was sentenced by a French Court because it took part in the Deportation. The fact it was under German occupation didn’t matter, the fact that some (the majority) considered Petain’s Vichy Government legal doesn’t matter. So, if because this mail let’s say a gay is injured or worst, he/she (or family) will be able to sue not only the Post Office but the individuals who carried the message. And the law will consider that they should have exercise their moral duty toward hate mail.

“They should all be fired”: Is it a little bit too much?
By the way are you sure of Vuk Bronkovic? I think he is Vuk Brankovic. Traitor? Sorry, other subject...

[macsen rufus]

It can be very frustrating when something as predestined as eye color is such a divisive subject.

PoP - quite true. Even, once upon a time, people used to do much worse to each other just on SKIN colour... go figure. The human race is slowly growing up.

This postal dispute though seems to be once again a clash of duty (obedience) against conscience, and as in other things my touchstone is the "Nuremburg defence". As individuals we have a moral duty that overarches our duties as functionaries. If an act is wrong, it is wrong. Being ordered to perform it does not absolve us of responsibility for performing it. The principle is that we are all equal before the law.

This homophobic twaddle should not, IMHO, be distributed. If the fundamentalists really want to assert their freedom of speech, fine. They can deliver it themselves, but state resources should not be allocated to doing it for them. If they've paid for the service, refund them and refuse their custom. Legally defined or not, this qualifies as "hate mail" in my eyes.