Campaign map overview (picture)

[Gampie]

Over at TWC, nodey made a very nice looking map with all the cities and factions of the Grand Campaign. It is based on a beta screenshot ( http://www.g4mers.com/images/previews/shot_71_499.jpg ). The map was enlarged and then refined. From the demo files a list of cities could be extracted ( http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...5&postcount=17 ) and by researching the net + tips from other fans the cities were placed on the corresponding regions. America is not included though :-P

Enjoy!

(Oh yeah, it's 1080 AD.)



If interested, the thread is at: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66394

[Aracnid]

cheers that is really interesting

[MSB]

Southern Scotland's capital should be St. Andrews. It was the capital of the Scotish Kingdom till the Scotish Reformation when it's cathedral and castle was burnt down.

[Aracnid]

Yeah but Edinburough was always the bigger city, kinda like how Winchester was captial for a while even though London was bigger and more important.

[Polemists]

Well if it's like Rome I'm not sure Capitals will be that important. I mean in Rome a capital just meant that city started with better buildings and units but if it fell you just moved capitals usually.

[Amon_Zeth]

Well, seeing as how Venice will automatically own Illyria, and that much of the Hellenic penninsula is open, that will seriously change my strategy of world domination. Thanks for the map. :)

[Dan.o6]

Thats a nice map, first time I have seen the starting positions for the factions :)

[Perplexed]

Finally, a full map for our consideration! Excellent.

Now sorry to everyone if this seems nitpicky but just a few points:

_________________________________________
Western Europe:

- The Scots should control all of Scotland in 1080 except for the very northern tip (which was a possession of Norway).
- Northumbria should not be rebel in 1080, it should be a possession of England.
- The capital of Normandy should be at Rouen, not Caen.
- The capital of Brittany ought to be at either Nantes or Brest (probably Brest).
- The capital of Flanders should be at Ghent.
- France shouldn't control Aquitaine, Provence, or Toulouse. Their control of Anjou is also suspect.
- Portugal, if it should exist at all in 1080, should control neither Lisbon (which was captured from the Muslims in 1147 by a passing fleet en route to the Second Crusade) nor Navarre (wtf?).

Central & Northern Europe:

- Too little of Scandinavia is portrayed; the map should extend further north.
- Stockholm didn't even become a major city until the 13th century at least. The capital of Sweden ought to be Uppsala at this point.
- Again, Oslo did not become the premier city of Norway until the 13th-14th centuries. However, as the map does not seem to extend far enough north to include Bergen, it may have to do for now.
- The capital of what parts of Finland can be seen should be Åbo, as Helsinki wasn't founded until 1550.
- The capital of Prussia should be at Gdansk, not at Thorn, as that city only rose to some prominence under the Teutonic order.
- The capital of Friesland should be Utrecht, not Antwerp, since Antwerp only became important after the 15th century.
- Bern was founded in 1191, so it should not be the capital of Switzerland. I'm not sure what should replace it, but Zurich might be a fair bet.
- The Holy Roman Empire should control more territory to its north and west.

Southern Europe:

- Milan should not have been included as a faction over Genoa in the first place, and it certainly should not control the latter province in 1080.
- Malta should be included as a province under the control of Norman Sicily.
- Venice should not control the Adriatic coastline in 1080.
- Yugosolavia should not be province. At the very least it should be divided into Serbia and Croatia.
- Durazzo should at this point be Dyrrachium, and should be under Byzantine, not rebel, control.
- The capital of Bulgaria should be at Turnovo, not Sofia.
- Bucharest, not having been of any real import before the 15th century, should not by rights be the capital of Wallachia at this point. However, I can give no suggestions as to a suitable replacement.

Eastern Europe & The Steppe:

- There should be more steppe and Russian provinces. The current number doesn't do the area justice at all.
- Riga as a true city was founded in the 13th century by German colonists. Izborsk may be a more suitable capital for Livonia, but in this point I am uncertain.
- Technically the capital of the 'Muscovy' area ought to be Vladimir at this point.
- Volga-Bulgar should be simply Bulgar (or alternatively, 'The Great Bulgar').
- The province with its capital at Halych (which I assume to be Volhynia), should be stretched further southeast to include Galicia, since Halych (or Galich) was that region's capital.
- I don't know what the capital of Transylvania should be, but certainly not Bran.
- Budapest as a single city did not exist until the 19th century. The capital of Hungary should be either Buda or Pest, but not both.

North Africa:

- The Sahara should be an impassable zone. Conquerable provinces should be excluded to thick coastal provinces along the Mediterranean coast and very narrow coastal porvinces along the western coast.
- Dongola is much further south than this map would be able to show. Aswan might be a passable alternative, but that city may be too far south as well.

Middle-East & Anatolia:

- The capital of Cilicia should be at Tarsus, not Adana.
- The capital of Cyprus should be at Kyrenia, not Nicosia.
- The Arabian desert should be an impassable region like the Sahara, although Hejaz should be represented as a province.
_________________________________________

[Zalmoxis]

Yeah, Alba-Iulia would have been a much better capital for Transylvania.

[Cheetah]

Well, I assume it is a kind of PR decision to use modern names instead of historical ones (when it is possible). I am sure CA knew very well that this might be annoying for history buffs, but I guess that the proportion of history buffs to laymen decided the issue in favour of modern names.

What is lot more annoying, at least for me ... that Hungary is only two province. The one they call Budapest could be easily divided into two or three parts, both on historical grounds and on grounds of gameplay (IMO). It has the size of two or three western provinces, so for the same size the western factions has two or three cities, thus I assume a large economical and demographical advantage. If the reason to keep Hungary this "small" was that Hungary should not be as strong as the "main" western factions, then the disappointing news (from this point of view) is that Hungary at that time was "that strong", or perhaps even stronger than some of the main factions.
Of course I understand that it is probably another PR decision. They do not want to overload people with history, and they do not want to complicate the average customers life with things that Europe was different 1000 years ago than it is today.

Gah! More provinces to Hungary!!!

ps. At least I have something to moan about. not that I will ever play SP ...

[Furious Mental]

Nice map but Bologna should be HRE

[big_steveo]

You guys sure do have a lot of "should"s. Just play the game and be happy. Alternatively, mod it when you get the full version.

[Laman]

For capital of Wallachia, Targoviste would probably be a better option, and for Moldavia Suceava would be preferable over Iasi IIRC. But all in all, large parts of the map (such as almost everything east of HRE to make an example) is actually an insult to every potential player with even half a brain IMHO.

[Ituralde]

Very nice work, gotta admire the artist for putting the effort into it.

All history and personal preferences aside Furious Mental is right though that Bologna is controlled by the HRE at the beginninge of the game, clearly said so in their faction preview at IGN. Besides that the map is perfect!

[Faenaris]

Love the map. :) The one thing that bugs me a bit is the fact that Milan is in instead of Genoa. But I can mod that, so, no problem for me.

I am pleasantly surprised to see Flanders has 2 provinces (MTW only had 1). I'm gonna go capture those ASAP. :)

[Ferret]

The idea of making the countries smaller is so we have rebel settlements to capture instead of going head to head with another faction straight away.
MTW is an alternate history not the exact thing that happened, it would be boring if we couldn't take a settlement if the faction we are playing did not historicaly take it.
STOP COMPLAINING!

[Frisky-Welshman]

i like the map. it mightr not be the most historically accurate map in the world, and it might be a bit to small, no scandanavia, but it is still quite good. im looking forward to playing as portugal, if possible.

[TheImp]

Good luck. It looks like it's gonna be very difficult to survive with Portugal. They are surrounded by 3 other factions and don't have much freedom of conquest. I guess it will be mostly diplomatic style of game at the beginning.

[Gampie]

Nodey has made an update of the map:



Bologna is HRE, as it should be. Furthermore the cities are now marked with a dot on the map. Cheers.

[Perplexed]

The idea of making the countries smaller is so we have rebel settlements to capture instead of going head to head with another faction straight away.
MTW is an alternate history not the exact thing that happened, it would be boring if we couldn't take a settlement if the faction we are playing did not historicaly take it.
STOP COMPLAINING!

The 'idea' of TW should be that you can jump into an accurate depiction of the period and from there change the course of history, it ishould not be that you have to jump into an ahistorical quasi-fantasy world and have to rely either on your own ignorance or increasingly difficult suspension of disbelief to keep the immersion factor from curling up and dying at your feet.

None of us are suggesting that people should attempt to follow the exact course of history as your campaign progresses, we only want the map to be as accurate as possible when the campaign begins. Please try to understand, it shouldn't be this difficult.

[Templar Knight]

Southern Scotland's capital should be St. Andrews. It was the capital of the Scotish Kingdom till the Scotish Reformation when it's cathedral and castle was burnt down.

Edinburgh was made Scotland's capital in 1437, long before the Reformation. Also where is there any mention that St Andrews was the capital?

[lars573]

- France shouldn't control Aquitaine, Provence, or Toulouse. Their control of Anjou is also suspect.

Yes they should. It was a massive distortion in MTW to have England Controlling Aquitane and Anjou in 1087. Those areas come into English control with Henry II in 1134. Toulouse and Provence were fiefs of the French crown in 1080. So they were part of France, but so was Burgundy.

[Perplexed]

Yes they should. It was a massive distortion in MTW to have England Controlling Aquitane and Anjou in 1087. Those areas come into English control with Henry II in 1134. Toulouse and Provence were fiefs of the French crown in 1080. So they were part of France, but so was Burgundy.

You are quite correct that, technically, these provinces paid homage to the king of France, but in reality France had next to no practical power over these areas in 1080. They were independent states in all but name. You have to remember that Normandy was also 'part of France' at this time, but I'm sure no one here would accept that area being under French control either; it's the same situation with these other provinces you mentioned.

And no, England should not control them either.

[lars573]

They were fiefs of the French crown. That means they were part of France. That means the French get them in the game. You have no room to complain about it.

[Faenaris]

They were fiefs of the French crown. That means they were part of France. That means the French get them in the game. You have no room to complain about it.

Could you post your sources? Also, might I suggest altering your tone a bit? It sounds a bit hostile. I'm sure that wasn't your intention. :)

[Perplexed]

They were fiefs of the French crown. That means they were part of France. That means the French get them in the game. You have no room to complain about it.

There's no point in getting uppity about it. The fact is that in 1080 the French king only had real power inside his own royal domain, and the fiefs outside that, although they paid formal homage to him, were in almost every other sense independent. Therefore, they should not be under his control.

[scourgeofrome]

Before everyone starts getting hostile, remember the game still ahs some time to come out.A few changes could happen.Also with the whole frech fief debate, do you guys really want to have a france with 1 starting province.

[Zenicetus]

The idea of making the countries smaller is so we have rebel settlements to capture instead of going head to head with another faction straight away.
MTW is an alternate history not the exact thing that happened, it would be boring if we couldn't take a settlement if the faction we are playing did not historicaly take it.

Right, it looks to me like this is a map designed for playability and fun, vs. strict historical accuracy, and (speaking only for myself) that's fine by me. Those rebel provinces mess with history a little, but they'll provide opportunities for early expansion, as well as buffer zones against immediate contact with another major faction. It may also have something to do with how the campaign AI is programmed. Maybe the buffer provinces help balance against too-aggressive AI expansion, or something. I assume this map tests well for playability, and that's why it looks the way it does.

[scourgeofrome]

Also, for the history buff whos nitpicky, just mod the game to your standards

[Perplexed]

Also, for the history buff whos nitpicky, just mod the game to your standards

Right, it looks to me like this is a map designed for playability and fun, vs. strict historical accuracy, and (speaking only for myself) that's fine by me. Those rebel provinces mess with history a little, but they'll provide opportunities for early expansion, as well as buffer zones against immediate contact with another major faction. It may also have something to do with how the campaign AI is programmed. Maybe the buffer provinces help balance against too-aggressive AI expansion, or something. I assume this map tests well for playability, and that's why it looks the way it does.

Fair enough.

I've never expected that the devs would take any notice of the points I posted above, and even if they did I wouldn't expect them to make any changes at such a late stage in the game development. This is perfectly alright: I'm sure it won't be too difficult to mod in new provinces and replace existing cities. I just wanted to point out the shortcomings of the map, that's all.