Reformation?

[Katana]

With all the mention religion is getting, I am curious to know if the protestant reformation will be included in the game. It seems like it should be to me - after all, the colonisation of the New World coincided with it (16th century). I know Hussite War Wagons are in the game. Has there been any official word from CA on this? It would be cool if the campaign ended with the Peace of Westphalia and the end of the Thirty Years' War.

[Templar Knight]

Nope, its not in, and the campaign ends in 1530, over 100 years before the end of the 30 years war.

[Watchman]

The Thirty Years' War would need a game all of its own. Anyway, the military paradigms involved in it were very different from what the TW system is made to handle, both tactically and strategically. Tercios ? Caracole ? The "Swedish brigade" ? The peculiarities of Vauban sieges and trace italienne fortresses ? The self-maintaining "perpetual war" made possible by an endless cycle of taking a loan, raising an army with it and then paying off the loan in part with loot, pillage and "contributions" gathered with that army and in part with yet more loans ?
N-a-a-a-a-hhhh.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Hussites were one of those pre-Luther heretic sects that every now and then popped up to give the Chrch the hives (and a propensity to declare Crusades and an open season for massacres and atrocity). Kind of like the Cathars/Albiguensians.
Lemme check...
Yep, "The Hussite Wars 1419-36".

[Katana]

Ok, so the game ends in 1530. Luther put his thesis on the door at Wittenburg in 1517. Is that going to be in the game?

[Geoffrey S]

If not, it'd be great material for an expansion. I'd absolutely love to see a game based on the thirty years war with all that entails.

[hoom]

My understanding is that protestantism has been lumped in generically with the Heretics & should manifest as heresy/unrest.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I hope they make a expansion with this..

1517,correct, but you onlu got 13 years before the game ends, so no point in making a big deal out of it unless they do a expasion and/or mod..

[Watchman]

AFAIK early on the main effect of Protestantism was to trigger a whole wave of apocalyptic preachers, cilialistic peasant revolts, emergent weird sects, and other such merry unrest. Political leaders, such as Gustaf Vasa of Sweden, only began adopting it a bit later on; for the timeframe of M2TW I figure treating it as widespread and intense heretic trouble is a reasonable and sensible enough solution.

[Katana]

While Luther's 99 thesis take place relatively close to the end of the game, they were the result of Church abuses that had been going on for some time before 1517. Things like the sale of indulgences and plurality caused the Church's public image to take a nose-dive. So, will generic heresy and religious dissatisfaction be on the rise in Western Europe from, say, 1500 onward in the game?

[Wingman]

Meh. If I had a guess it sounds like expnasion pack material. Code a new religion just like they did in BI, add some new units, and expand the timeframe. Then put a "Protestant Invasion" sticker on it and ship it off.

[CDavid]

Meh. If I had a guess it sounds like expnasion pack material. Code a new religion just like they did in BI, add some new units, and expand the timeframe. Then put a "Protestant Invasion" sticker on it and ship it off.

haha yep, thats exactly what i was thinking ^^

[Mount Suribachi]

Like Katana said, the seeds of the Reformation were sown decades, centuries even before Luther. John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Jan Hus etc etc.

Sadly I don't think the current TW diplomacy engine is anywhere near advanced enough to deal with something like the 30 year war. So many factions, so many factors influencing their actions. Ever tried explaining what the 30 Year War was about to someone who's never heard of it?

And then every other faction will just declare war on you anyway. *sigh*

[A.Saturnus]

Luther will probably appear in form of a text message. But until 1530 the political consequences were not so large that they would justify major changes in the campaign. Maybe religious dissatisfaction will be on the rise and heretics more numerous but Reformation itself would require a new game with a new timeframe.

[Katana]

Well, my question has been answered. I think it'd be really neat to see the 30 Years War in an expansion, but CA will probably put out Something-Invasion again. Sigh...

[Aracnid]

As they have done Viking invasion, I reckon the expansion for this will be the Rise of Lutherism.

[Nikodemus]

do you guys really think that they would make a "religion" centernd expansion? bringing religion into games...isent that kind of a no-no? or am i completly out of line here?

[LadyAnn]

Well, my question has been answered. I think it'd be really neat to see the 30 Years War in an expansion, but CA will probably put out Something-Invasion again. Sigh...

Mongol Invasion :)

Anniep

[Kalle]

An expansion could also be an in depth look at 100-years war with France and Enland as main factions but Scots and various more or less powerful feudallordships in England and France as other participators.

Or perhaps struggle for supremacy over the Baltic. Sweden, Denmark, Hansa, and others.

Of course the usual invasion concept works fine also.

Kalle

[Katana]

That might be fun. It'd be sweet to play as the Dukes of Burgundy and play the French and English off against each other for profit.

[Faenaris]

That might be fun. It'd be sweet to play as the Dukes of Burgundy and play the French and English off against each other for profit.

That would be sweet indeed. Let's hope CA makes an expansion like that.

[Boulis]

1517,correct, but you onlu got 13 years before the game ends, so no point in making a big deal out of it unless they do a expasion and/or mod..

Although I agree with Watchman about the elegance of CA's choice to simply increase religious unrest to "simulate" the Reformation, I do think the original question is valid in regards to the way events in the timeline are set up.

In other words, thirteen years should not be the only reason to ignore such a major event. Especially since there is a New World element in the game. For example:

Luther posts his 95 Theses......................................1517
Hernan Cortes invades Mexico..................................1519
Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent besieges Vienna.........1529

The argument that the Protestant princes in the Diet of the Holy Roman Empire did all they could to tie Charles V's hands in the war against the Ottomans is a common one among historians.

[geala]

Reformation (it was not lutherism alone) and counterreformation started a new world of warfare. 30-years-war was only one culmination. It would indeed be great stuff for an expansion (although I like medieval times more). The standardisation of arms and troops would be a bit boring perhaps.

The battle system had not to be changed very much. TW armies behaved from the beginning as "modern" as 16th century or later troops. I don't know many medieval battles with cleanly separated indepedently reacting bodies of troops instead of massive battlelines with perhaps 2 or 3 divisions beneath or behind each other.

[A.Saturnus]

do you guys really think that they would make a "religion" centernd expansion? bringing religion into games...isent that kind of a no-no? or am i completly out of line here?

Religion has played an increasing role in the last TW games and it is a major factor in M2TW. I see no reason why the Reformation shouldn't be centered in an expansion.
My preferred time frame would be from the Fall of Constantinople to the Peace of Westfalia.

[Phalaxar]

do you guys really think that they would make a "religion" centernd expansion? bringing religion into games...isent that kind of a no-no? or am i completly out of line here?

Yes, I think they really could/would.

The problem's not with religion in games (not in TW games, obviously - they had religions in MTW) but with implications. Some people get very upset if the terrorists are muslims or somesuch. In MTW II: The Protestor, it wouldn't be taking sides. It'd just be another religious belief, but no comment on whether it's bad or good or whether the believers are bad or good etc.
Should be just fine.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Why won't they bring religon into MTW2 Nik? that would deafet the purpose of having a histrocal game like MTW2 then mm8.

[Burns]

Let us not forget the Hussite wars that began in the late 1400s. Isnt there a thread on this page somewhere discussing their presense in the game?

[lars573]

The only way to handle the feformation would be an event that causes a large rise in heresy.

[Kansas Bear]

I was quite irked to find out there is NO mention of the reformation when 1522 rolls around. No historical comment, nothing.

I don't see why they couldn't make an expansion to allow this.

Henry VIII's break with the Church of Rome!
The Nine Religious Wars of France!
The Peace of Nuremburg!
Recess of Speyer!
Recess of Augsburg!

And so much more!

[Trithemius]

And so much more!

Alla moderna fortresses!

[Grimmy]

Can a population "flip" to being heretic friendly if heresy gets strong enough in a province? Or would that just trigger endless unrest?

If the pop does flip then it could be played as a "reformation" campaign by the player.

If it doesnt flip as currently set up, maybe it can be modded in and a player can have the option to "reform" his territories?