Getting excommed, boon or hindrance?

[gaijinalways]

I actually made a mistake in my current campaign, where I forgot to retreat out of a province and instead went to the castle. The error was that I forgot the pope had already warned me to stop attacking the re-emerged Argonese in Aquitane.

Now I am excommed, but I played out rapidly (had to go to work, I know reality intrudes again) several turns, including some battles I want to redo as I autocalced them due to the shortness of time. I noticed the pope went down quick, so I am thinking why not. I would replay even earlier (I still could), but I had a nice win aganist the Spanish (my 1700 aganist their 2400) and was loath to replay that again. The only advantage is I could hit the pope earlier, but I'm in the hole cash wise anyway (see my other thread, coming out of an economic blackhole) so hitting the pope will help (earlier I considered it, but at that time the BYz were strong to the south, and I didn't want to make it easier for them to back door me.

So I am wondering, when do you hit the pope for money, to rid your self of an excom, or for both?

[Martok]

I personally take down the pope just to end the excommunication (although my primary motivation usually is so I can launch Crusades again, and not because of the loss of influence). Of course, if the Papacy has gone on one of its rare rampages where it conquers a big chunk of the map, I'll usually attack him anyway to prevent him from becoming too powerful (and in which case I get florins for pillaging his lands). I've never invaded the Pope's territories for the sole purpose of getting a quick buck, however.

[professorspatula]

I only hit the pope when I'm fed up with him sending his 5* grand inquistors to burn all my generals for whatever reason only he knows. I try to be passive against him most of the time. If he declares war, however, like he did unprovoked against my Italian empire, I will crush him with all the righteous fury I can muster. I wouldn't attack him for money - my naval trade fleets are usually supplying me with enough at that point.

[nick_maxell]

Hmm - after reading both of your threads it seems your prob is loyality wise - to solve that you got a lot of hints (rescueing allies, win provinces etc) - as your opponent are the spanish you won t need any crusades anyways so I d leave the pope alone and send the asassins (and any inquisitors you have) after the spanish generals with more than one star and without bad vices. The navy problem can be solved by raiding, sending suicide forces in by sea - that often takes out the harbor/shipyard (if they hole up)and you ll have some time to consolidate your navy and the quick cash will help too.

[caravel]

With excommunication it's best to simply weather the storm and try to cope with it. Look at it this way, it makes the game more chalenging I suppose. The happiness penalty throughout your provinces can usually be countered quite easily with bigger Peasant/UM/Spearmen garrissons or happy buildings (such as watchtowers, borderforts, militias, churches and brothels etc).

Personally if excommunicated I don't go after the pope, I usually make the most of it and start an all out war. This is typically the way it goes when playing as the French or the English. Using the French in particular as an example (possibly the most excommunicated faction) it's not a problem in the early period for the first few years (because you're smaller than most of your enemies) but after a time you will get warned to leave the English or Spanish alone. You can reset this by hitting e.g. the Aragonese or Danes and taking them out ASAP. If it does all go down the "Total War" route however, and you find yourself at war with the Spanish, English, Aragonese, HRE And Italians, and you get excommunicated, then you've no business sitting around waiting for crusades to arrive in your land. It's best to go on the offensive and ignore the pope until later. One of my strategies is to invade enemy provinces that spawn crusades, thus bringing down the chapter house, ending the crusade and possibly creating a bit of civil war.

[Vladimir]

Well it can be a good opportunity to do all those things you wanted to do but were afraid of being excommed for.

[Deus ret.]

I personally take down the pope just to end the excommunication (although my primary motivation usually is so I can launch Crusades again, and not because of the loss of influence).

so killing the Pope ends excomm status, okay. ....but I suppose you have to wipe him out completely to restore peace with him, right? because if you're playing some faction like the HRE, he'll attack sooner or later if he has the opportunity to (of course against all odds ) and he never ever makes peace again, thus preventing you from crusading for the rest of the game. wiping him out would not really help, either, because he'll likely reappear in those territories you just took from him and start the war again....any hints?

[gaijinalways]

I don't mind letting the pope reappear, and with any luck the Byz will roll in and take one or both of his provinces and get the brunt of his wrath (rather than me ).

But the waiting for an excom, since I am so far in the hole, is not a good option in this case. But as I said, it would serve two purposes, raising some cash, ending the excom, and I even could wipe out the BYZ below (heh, heh). But I might just sweep out and weaken the HRE some more, though if I want to make new enemies I could easily (and take some buildings down as well). But personally the Spanish really dissed me, so I think they will bear the brunt of my military Tsunami !

[caravel]

Killing the pope, either in battle or by assassination, doesn't end your excommunication IIRC, because I remember seeing off 4 popes in a row once, with a high valour assassin. As soon as the new pope was in office he called for a crusade against my faction and my excommunicated state continued.

[Geezer57]

Killing the pope, either in battle or by assassination, doesn't end your excommunication IIRC, because I remember seeing off 4 popes in a row once, with a high valour assassin. As soon as the new pope was in office he called for a crusade against my faction and my excommunicated state continued.

That sounds like some kind of aberration in your game, Caravel, as either death of the Pope (by any means) or death of your faction's ruler have long been held axiomatic as ending excommunication. Maybe you had some corrupted data during your campaign?

[Martok]

Killing the pope, either in battle or by assassination, doesn't end your excommunication IIRC, because I remember seeing off 4 popes in a row once, with a high valour assassin. As soon as the new pope was in office he called for a crusade against my faction and my excommunicated state continued.

Weird; I think that's gotta be a bug in your game, Caravel. Whenever the Pope or your faction leader dies (regardless of how he met his demise), the excommunication automatically ends. I've don't think I've ever heard of anyone having problems like what you've desribed.

EDIT: Heh; never mind. Geezer already beat me!

[caravel]

Well it was quite a while ago, so I could be mistaken. I haven't played as a catholic faction and gone to war with the pope for over a year, so it may be that my memory is getting fuzzy. It is possible that I was a muslim or orthodox faction, in which case it may make sense.

[Geezer57]

EDIT: Heh; never mind. Geezer already beat me!

It's amazing how great minds think alike!

[Martok]

It's amazing how great minds think alike!

[danfda]

I personally take down the pope just to end the excommunication (although my primary motivation usually is so I can launch Crusades again, and not because of the loss of influence). Of course, if the Papacy has gone on one of its rare rampages where it conquers a big chunk of the map, I'll usually attack him anyway to prevent him from becoming too powerful (and in which case I get florins for pillaging his lands). I've never invaded the Pope's territories for the sole purpose of getting a quick buck, however.

Never, in any of my campaigns, has conquering the Pope followed by pulling out and letting him re-emerge allowed me to crusade again after excomm. So how do you manage that? When I try to launch one the Pope always replies with something along the lines of "it is not a good time"--once I have been at war with el Popo, I am done Crusading. For good. Thus, I usually try to avoid wars with him and let him sit there, wee and helpless.

[King Kurt]

Weird; I think that's gotta be a bug in your game, Caravel. Whenever the Pope or your faction leader dies (regardless of how he met his demise), the excommunication automatically ends. I've don't think I've ever heard of anyone having problems like what you've desribed.

EDIT: Heh; never mind. Geezer already beat me!

A similar sequence of events have just happened to me - see Pics and history of your empire thread.
I had been excommed by the Pope for some time and I am at war with him. My King dies - good I think, I have a crusade marker which has been there for ages, now I can use. I attempt to lauch said crusade - message says I am excommed. There had been no warning/ reissue of notice etc - I have assumed it is due to being at war with the Pope.
Also I have come across another strange one. In my current campaign the Pope had the usual 3 Italian provinces - Rome, Papal states and Tuscany and had recently taken greece. I attacked all 3 Italian states at once and throw his Popeness out with a nice ransom. pope moves to Greece - only province left - and gains a nice 2 stack army for the privilige as if he had reemerged!!

On the general point of is it worth ransoming the Pope, I have got to say it is if you can work it. Personallly the thing I would avoid is wiping the Pope out - his reemergances - even if you strip the provinces bare - are really strong and early game would roll over most players. What's more, he comes back again and again - and each time he is stronger.
If you are strong, then excom is not to bad - no need to worry about duffing up your fellow Catholics.

[Martok]

Never, in any of my campaigns, has conquering the Pope followed by pulling out and letting him re-emerge allowed me to crusade again after excomm. So how do you manage that? When I try to launch one the Pope always replies with something along the lines of "it is not a good time"--once I have been at war with el Popo, I am done Crusading. For good. Thus, I usually try to avoid wars with him and let him sit there, wee and helpless.

Hmm, that's very....odd. Between your and King Kurt's posts, and Caravel's posts about AI Crusades, I'm starting to think my theory about CA having released two versions of the game might actually be correct! (Okay; not really, but it would certainly explain things, wouldn't it?)

Even in Kurt's scenario, the excommunication still should've ended since his current faction leader was dead. It's certainly possible he might have been re-excommunicated in a year or two (since he was still at war with the Papacy), but his faction should still have been in good standing for at least a couple turns before that happened. There's just no way he should've remained excommed once his king died.

I don't know, guys. As far as I can tell, I've never done anything special when it comes to taking out the Pope. I attack, I execute him, I raze everything & pull out, and then let him re-emerge in his own good time. Once he does reappear, everything's back to normal; it's as if my prior excommunication and invasion of his lands never happened. I honestly have no idea what we're doing different that could explain this rather massive discrepancy in results.

@King Kurt: Oh, and I have no idea what could account for the Pope getting those two big stacks in Greece, but I know I've heard of this phenomenon a couple times before. In both instances, the Pope also appeared in a province other than Rome or the Papal States (I know one of the times he showed up in Corsica). Exactly what the cause of this is, no one seems to know; but your situation is apparently not an isolated incident (although hopefully still rare).

[gaijinalways]

It's nice in my current game as the pope is still underground, though I can initiate a crusade if I like (I have a few markers from before). The background is that in my same campaign (played a few days while I am on break before my unis start), I stomped the pope, razed his buildings , and left .

Rebels then emerged where the pope was in the Papal states and Rome; where the pope is now I have no idea, but he is around (in the mean time my campaign has nicely recovered and I sent the mercs home, though I know they'll be expecting their bonuses, ouch! ). Maybe the Pope is having a working holiday dwon south, but my spies haven't seen him yet!

[Martok]

He's probably still fairly close to Italy, even if he's not on the peninsula proper. The few times I've heard of the Pope re-emerging outside of Rome/Papal States, he's still always nearby. So I would keep an eye out for him around the Central Mediterranean somewhere. (In my games, he always reappears in one of those two provinces, except for one time when he showed up in Naples.)

[Deus ret.]

Never, in any of my campaigns, has conquering the Pope followed by pulling out and letting him re-emerge allowed me to crusade again after excomm. So how do you manage that? When I try to launch one the Pope always replies with something along the lines of "it is not a good time"--once I have been at war with el Popo, I am done Crusading. For good. Thus, I usually try to avoid wars with him and let him sit there, wee and helpless.

hmm...did you still own the province in which he re-emerged? In this case, you'd be at war with him, which prevents you from starting crusades. As soon as the Pope's dead, retreat from any lands he might re-emerge in and also from bordering provinces (to prevent some stupid action of the new Pope). In the ideal case, those provinces are conquered by another faction or taken away by an Italian reappearance, which could serve as a buffer to the Vatican and rid you of most ecclesiastical problems. If that doesn't work or if you happen to play the HRE or some faction the Pope wouldn't ever make peace with again, the only solution I found viable was a cheat: take control of the Papacy via -ian command switch and send an emissary to your king. usually the peace won't last long but at least long enough to start some crusade.

[caravel]

hmm...did you still own the province in which he re-emerged? In this case, you'd be at war with him, which prevents you from starting crusades.

If you immediately withdraw from a province that a emerging/re-emerging faction appears in, don't you avoid war? I thought so.

[gaijinalways]

my pop finally reemerged in Rome, so I don't know where he was hanging out for a few years. Enjoyed attacking the Spanish during that time though!

[Irinami]

Vaproize the Pope ASAP, pull out of Papal territories so someone else deals with his BS when he re-emerges, renew any alliances you feel nostalgic about, and worst come to worst "crusade" with mercs.

Vicious little bugger, el Papa.

[ivoignob]

I am playing with the HRE right now and never attacked anyone, except for punishing those who attacked me first. But why the hell am I the only one getting excommunicated and not them? Everythings wicked! Anybody got an answer?

[Deus ret.]

Rather simple: The Pope sides with the weaker faction, so they have a good lead in terms of the damage they can inflict on you before they get excommed. Don't worry, smash them while you're still excommed and once you're really big, evil and mighty you won't have to worry about those pesky excommunications any more (resp. are able to stop this nuisance by assassinating el papa )

[Jxrc]

Re-ermerging popes can be a great asset, if you are ready to fight basically the same battle and can spare an army of about 3,000 men.

Just sit in Rome and wait with an initial army (first 16 units) composed of 6 arbalesters, 6 CS, 4 cavalry. The pope is ususally not a great general (4 stars max in my experience). Rout the pope and the first wave (or better kill or capture) and the battle is over unless you make a big blunder. If you are lucky the Pope will attack with 4-6 ballista, catapult or trebuchet to make things even easier.

By doing so, you ca turn Rome in your personal practice field for your king and heirs, each time getting a variant of the skilled defender attribute. Did so once as the HRE and all my kings became at least expert defenders which greatly increased the quality of subsequent heirs.

The drawback is that it can be tedious to find the same battle every five or ten turns ...

[gaijinalways]

Jxrc,

I am impressed at the ideas I see in MTW for manipulation (and I got accused of taking advantage of the AI with spy seeding and holding fortresses ).

But, yes the Pope can be whacked for your advantage sometimes. I may have to whack him again soon again. The Spanish ended years of peace by trying to take a province, and guess who gets the warning, yours truly.

So I may have to kick his ass down again (and the naughty Spanish) .

[Irinami]

So I may have to kick his ass down again (and the naughty Spanish) .

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I never attack the Pope's territories as a Catholic faction, because I don't like being excommunicated and once you are at war with the Pope it is hard to break the cycle. This then tends to cause an explosion of other Catholic factions attacking me with their Crusades. Which disrupts all my trade routes.

On the rare occasions I have been excommunicated, I throw the Pope on the fire because he is so obviously a heretic.

[Mystic]

Im the french in mine and im in a huge struggle with my ally (bryz) for power we are both rich and conquering everything slowly. but the thorn in my side thats continuously holding me back is the pope. he gives me the warning (which i often respect and leave) but then the bryz starts taking mass territory over and i have to compete. and then i have to keep up because i know the alliance isnt going to last forever. so ive attacked the papal states and i got driven back by 2 massive sicillian armys. and a crusade hasnt attacked me yet. i get the warnings i see them a territory away but they dont come so im going to ignore from now on until something comes of it and if at all i have 68,000 florins backup. i just started it this morning :)