What is the deal? EB's direction...

[fallen851]

Long ago, just before the release of 0.72 (and back when I was more civil, because I thought others would be...) I laid into the EB team for not having direction, not having goals, and biting off more they can chew, and that they might as well release the mod now.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57433

Oddly enough, the mod was released just a short time after.

So now we have the same problem, but knowing that the mod is likely going to be released next month, it isn't an issue, but what is happening to the mod, again is still in question, and should be explored.

Let me illustrate:

Feb 06 Our next version is almost certainly going to be v0.8, based on the progress we have made. This will include at least 20 new units, and probably we'll be moving to RTW v1.5, if things continue to go well.

Feb 06 I'd look for Yuezhi to hang around a little longer. Even if there is another faction in the future, it won't happen overnight. It would take a while to get things in order (you can probably tell the Yuezhi were our newest faction anyway - as they had lots left undone).

May 06 I will say the thing better be ready before the summer is over though.

Now as we can see, 0.8 will not have the Yuezhi, it will have way more than 20 units, and lots of other changes, and it certainly didn't make a summer 06 release.

But it could have.

It seems to me that EB is moving in a direction where it is just throwing more and more cool stuff in because it can, and 0.8 has continually balloned which further delays the release. Again this goes back to my original post, long ago, where I compared EB to a car project that was under the "just $100 more syndrome" where someone sets a goal for their car, then when they have it apart, they realize over and over for just $100 more they can have this trick part, or that trick part, and thus their car never gets done. They strayed from their original goal, just like EB has.

Why not just set goals, meet those goals, then release? Then do it again? Why continually expand the goals of a release? Don't you see the problem with that?

If you define EB 0.8 as something, for instance it has 20 units, the 1.5 build, and so on, than that is what EB 0.8 is. The problem here is, the EB team doesn't even know what EB 0.8 is. EB 0.8 to the EB team is some vague thing, that includes a bunch of new units and a 1.5 build. Beyond that, little is known.

A successful buisness model, meets the goals it sets out to achieve, it doesn't continually change goals, but I hear talk about EB2, EB 0.9, and how great EB 0.8 is, when EB 0.8 isn't even out yet, or close to being polished...

[Bonny]

Apart from endlessly including new things (units, music, voicemod,gui, factions) the main thing that delayed EB 0.8 so long is afaik the port to 1.5 and the need of rebuilding the recruitment system from scratch (and maybe the reinforcement bug, which is solved now).

[Reenk Roink]

Your accusations are based on an insufficient amount of evidence.

As an beta tester, I do not have full knowledge of everything EB. But I do know that there are problems that the team is having, and I do know that progress has been made.

[Geoffrey S]

Presumably the massive issues with the recruiting system as ported to 1.5, causing the mod to be unplayable for a long time, meant that members not involved with fixing that issue such as modellers, skinners, and faction researchers had plenty of time to research a replacement for the Yuezhi and time to 'throw in the cool stuff'. And to be honest, I believe this is the only conclusion someone being reasonable about the mod can reach.

[Foot]

Can I hit him, can I boss?

I shall explain this as best I can. 0.8 has not changed, we had 2 main tasks for 0.8; convert to 1.5 and integrate the new units who had been languishing in limbo for awhile. However, as many people will know, we ran into a snag with task 1 - coverting to 1.5 - our extensive recruitment and government system caused the game to crash, because 1.5 introduced a small problem whereby having building conditionals in recruitment was not liked by RTW. This was the most important part of EB's recruitment system, and integral to the government system that is really fundamental to EB's gameplay. Whilst we sorted out this problem (not everyone could work on it) we continued to proceed with other areas of the mod, these secondary objectives (such as descriptions, GUIs, Music etc) were not primary objectives and so if they were not ready they would not have delayed the release of 0.8. The recruitment system has been the only thing that has kept us from releasing 0.8, you prat. Our primary tasks have never changed, but when we ran into bugs, we had to fix them and so we have and we are now gearing up for 0.8 (integration of all these parts takes time). How can you judge our behaviour when your position is one of ignorance.

Your perception is matters not, you have often made claims against EB which we have continually refuted and we've had enough. When you made claims about stats you acted as if we were novices in this area - we are not. Now you claim that we can't keep our head out of the clouds - we can. We had already decided that we wanted to push ahead with an early release of 0.8 before we put out the public poll, we put out the public poll so that we could gauge what people's reactions would be.

I find your post offensive, ignorant and malacious. I wouldnt mind if this was a informed criticism, or even if we've kept secret about our problems and you are speaking as a concerned fan. We have not kept any secrets about our problems concerning the conversion to 1.5. Did you that was a lie, that really we were just going over and over the same things again, perfecting everything and forgetting what our main objectives were. We've told the public that we've had troubles with converting to 1.5, but your post seems to say that this hasn't been the case or that we are lying.

We know what 0.8 is, we can see it on the horizon quite clearly, we have put forward targets to the Mod adminstrators and we intend to keep them.

We started talk of EB2 because it was time that we did, we were afraid that if we popped up to late it would lead to a rift between OR and EB. Thankfully, we are currently in talks with them, and collaboration is a certainty.

Basically

Foot

[GMT]

Seriously, not this again..

fallen851, do you get a kick out of this or something? You know this will just end in a fight like all those other little threads you started.

You supposedly never played the mod so why not give it a try and see for yourself all the amazing stuff the EB team has accomplished so far instead of your constant whining and arguing.

[LorDBulA]

What Foot said.
There was no way to release it before November.
Why? Because we didnt have main features in.
Nothing to add.

[Laundreu]

i heard it was headed east for Berlin

[abou]

i heard it was headed east for Berlin

But it made a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

[SOSamurai]

A successful buisness model, meets the goals it sets out to achieve, it doesn't continually change goals, but I hear talk about EB2, EB 0.9, and how great EB 0.8 is, when EB 0.8 isn't even out yet, or close to being polished...

I'd just like to say that I think this is the flaw in your logic that's forcing you to trip up over EB apparently so often.
It's a mod. And like most mods it's made by fans of the source material who wish to mold it into something greater. You can't compare it to any kind of business project. It's a hobby, if anything. So at the end of the day they can expand on their mod plans, and it shouldn't warrant rants (unless the modders have broken the game, then we can burn them!).

[Kull]

On the chance that our *many* previous explanations have been too technical, and try as you might you just can't grasp them, let's try an analogy:

Imagine that you were building a tree house. You had a pretty nice structure already, but you announced to your kids that in a few weeks you were going to paint it red and put pink curtains in it. And of course they got all excited. And then you walked out into the backyard one day and saw that the tree had toppled over and taken your lovely tree house with it.

Now you could probably still paint the fragments red and hang curtains somewhere, but it wouldn't be quite the same thing, now would it? For certain your kids wouldn't be very happy. So instead you searched around until you found a tree that looked very much like the other one (which took quite some time), and then you rebuilt the tree house according to the old plans, except, of course, the design wasn't exactly the same, since it's a different tree, and that added some time. But it was worth it to you because your kids LOVED the old treehouse and you wanted the new one to look familiar - but better, lot's better.

Now while you were searching for a new tree, others in your family were able to get the paint, make the curtains, and even procured some nifty shingles and fancy floorboards. So yes, it took longer than you thought to paint the treehouse, but now it's going to be better than ever, and kudos to you for not giving up when it would have been so very easy to walk away and disappoint your kids.

Does that help?

[fallen851]

Can I hit him, can I boss?

I shall explain this as best I can. 0.8 has not changed, we had 2 main tasks for 0.8; convert to 1.5 and integrate the new units who had been languishing in limbo for awhile. However, as many people will know, we ran into a snag with task 1 - coverting to 1.5 - our extensive recruitment and government system caused the game to crash, because 1.5 introduced a small problem whereby having building conditionals in recruitment was not liked by RTW. This was the most important part of EB's recruitment system, and integral to the government system that is really fundamental to EB's gameplay. Whilst we sorted out this problem (not everyone could work on it) we continued to proceed with other areas of the mod, these secondary objectives (such as descriptions, GUIs, Music etc) were not primary objectives and so if they were not ready they would not have delayed the release of 0.8. The fucked up recruitment system has been the only thing that has kept us from releasing 0.8, you prat. Our primary tasks have never changed, but when we ran into bugs, we had to fix them and so we have and we are now gearing up for 0.8 (integration of all these parts takes time). How can you judge our behaviour when your position is one of ignorance.

We are in nearly complete agreement, and if you stopped getting worked up you would understand. So now ignoring all the people who think I'm making no point, I'll get us onto the same boat in two points.

#1

When you define 0.8 (as shown in the quotes I've selected above) as something, then change it, it ceases to become 0.8!

But 0.8 has not changed entirely, you guys have simply added on to it so it is now 0.8+, not 0.8, because it ceased to exist when you changed it. Do I need to requote what it was, and what it became (two different things)? I believe we are in agreement here, so the question: why did you add on to it? This is the subject of point #2.


#2

Now you say it became 0.8+ because you had extra time making 0.8 happen, but now we see that

"integration of all these parts takes time"

So you've told me that you did what you did because you had time to do it, but now you're telling me that these new extra parts, NOT ORIGINALLY PART OF 0.8, are being intergrated and delaying the release of 0.8 since they take time?

That doesn't make any sense, those parts were never part of 0.8 to begin with, so why not just not intergrate them because that is taking time. You're going above and beyond your original goals, and you just admitted it when you stated that the intergration takes time.

So what do you disagree with point #1, or point #2?

If you say #1 you need only to read your post to see that you haven't moved away from your original goal.

If you say #2 you need only to read your post to realize these "extra" parts being intergrated takes time, and that means 0.8 could have been out sooner without these parts... (which obviously some of you think are of great benefit (your opinion...), but they are a result of 0.8+ not 0.8).

So we conclude that EB expanded the scope of 0.8 and that had delayed the release the 0.8. I think this is a bad thing, it is my opinion, and the opinion of the buisness world. That does not mean the position of the buisness world, is right however, but it is the position that would allow the mod to be done in the least amount of time. Done.

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

We are in nearly complete agreement, and if you stopped getting worked up you would understand. So now ignoring all the people who think I'm making no point, I'll get us onto the same boat in two points.

#1

When you define 0.8 (as shown in the quotes I've selected above) as something, then change it, it ceases to become 0.8!

0.8 has not changed, you guys have simply added on to it. Look at what you said 0.8 would be! Look at what it became! Two different things! Do I need to requote this? I believe we are in agreement here, so why did you add on to it? This is the subject of point #2.


#2

Now you say it became that way because you had time, but now we see that

So you've told me that you did what you did because you had time to do it, but now you're telling me that these new extra parts, NOT ORIGINALLY PART OF 0.8, are being intergrated and delaying the release of 0.8 since they take time?

That doesn't make any sense, those parts were never part of 0.8 to begin with, so why not just not intergrate them because that is taking time. You're going above and beyond your original goals, and you just admitted it when you stated that the intergration takes time.

So what do you disagree with point #1, or point #2?

If you say #1 you need only to read your post to see that you haven't moved away from your original goal.

If you say #2 you need only to read your post to realize these "extra" parts being intergrated takes time, and that means 0.8 could have been out sooner without these parts...

So we conclude that EB expanded the scope of 0.8 and that had delayed the release the 0.8. I think this is a bad thing, it is my opinion, and the opinion of the buisness world. That does not mean the position of the buisness world, is right however, but it is the position that would allow the mod to be done in the least amount of time. Done.

First of all, EB is a MOD. Not a game. A MOD. Also, what you don't seem to realize is that a lot of the delay has been because of the whole porting and bugs thing. Because It's taking so long, EB decided that instead of having their musicians and modelers and what have you twiddle their thumbs while the bug fixers port over to 1.5, the modellers etc. decided to add new things, making 0.8 much more complete. So instead of making your EB bashing threads, actually think for once. We've all countered your critisicim in all of these types of threads you make, so just give up for goodness sake. We're sick of countering your faulty logic.

That is all.

[Geoffrey S]

(missed Copperhead's post, sorry for repetition)

Completely ignoring the fact that release of the mod for 1.5 (the stated goal for 0.8) was entirely impossible until very recently due to issues with the recruiting and government system.

By your logic, it'd have been better whilst working on actually making 0.8 playable not to do anything else and add to suc things as units and music, because that takes it above the original goal. Sit still and do nothing for months hardly seems like a better option.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I guess this is a bad time to bring up our new SoulSteal technology being implemented in 0.8 also. It's really just a minor new tweak by which we steal your souls and use them to build treehouses (Kull hinted at this earlier but was too afraid to come right out and say it; I on the other hand am pure evil, so I don't mind letting you know about it now). That part of the build is of course right on time - no delays.

[Volume II]

Just so long as the zombification process is alright. I don't want to have my soul sucked just to realize I'm nothing more than a paraplegic zombie. My brain munching would be severely limited.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You don't become a Zombie, you become a weird Cyber-Vampire, spreading EB across the internet.

As a layman with no real understanding of the engine I can say these guys were tearing their hair out over the bugs the port created.

[Foot]

We are in nearly complete agreement, and if you stopped getting worked up you would understand. So now ignoring all the people who think I'm making no point, I'll get us onto the same boat in two points.

#1

When you define 0.8 (as shown in the quotes I've selected above) as something, then change it, it ceases to become 0.8!

But 0.8 has not changed entirely, you guys have simply added on to it so it is now 0.8+, not 0.8, because it ceased to exist when you changed it. Do I need to requote what it was, and what it became (two different things)? I believe we are in agreement here, so the question: why did you add on to it? This is the subject of point #2.


#2

Now you say it became 0.8+ because you had extra time making 0.8 happen, but now we see that

So you've told me that you did what you did because you had time to do it, but now you're telling me that these new extra parts, NOT ORIGINALLY PART OF 0.8, are being intergrated and delaying the release of 0.8 since they take time?

That doesn't make any sense, those parts were never part of 0.8 to begin with, so why not just not intergrate them because that is taking time. You're going above and beyond your original goals, and you just admitted it when you stated that the intergration takes time.

So what do you disagree with point #1, or point #2?

If you say #1 you need only to read your post to see that you haven't moved away from your original goal.

If you say #2 you need only to read your post to realize these "extra" parts being intergrated takes time, and that means 0.8 could have been out sooner without these parts... (which obviously some of you think are of great benefit (your opinion...), but they are a result of 0.8+ not 0.8).

So we conclude that EB expanded the scope of 0.8 and that had delayed the release the 0.8. I think this is a bad thing, it is my opinion, and the opinion of the buisness world. That does not mean the position of the buisness world, is right however, but it is the position that would allow the mod to be done in the least amount of time. Done.

I would disagree with your definitions of 0.8 entirely, thus voiding argument #1, but let me clarify.

As stated above, 0.8 is defined by two goals, a conversion to RTW 1.5 and the integration of completed units (about 20 at that time we seem to mention). As evidence for this point I will direct you to the quote you put forward in your first post.

Originally Posted by Khelvan
Feb 06 Our next version is almost certainly going to be v0.8, based on the progress we have made. This will include at least 20 new units, and probably we'll be moving to RTW v1.5, if things continue to go well.

Now as we can see, at least 20 new units and probably moving to RTW 1.5. This was an early statement and so the reservation that 0.8 would move to RTW 1.5 is clearly seen in the word "probably". These are our stated goals for 0.8, but it must be mentioned that this is not all we worked on for not all our modders had the capable skills to deal with the two tasks. Aymar took the unit integration task, but eventually the task grew too big for just one person and we know have a team working on that area of the mod. Various members of the mod worked on coverting EB to RTW 1.5 - nikolai and cunctator are two of the most important.

We finally managed to move to RTW 1.5, quite early actually, and work began on integrating all the stuff that needed to be integrated. Except we didn't, because our team had lost its integrator. This stagnation of work on an internal build caused Teleklos to get very angry, and you don't want to see him when he gets angry. The upshot of this is that I stepped up from a simple Hayasdan FC (new kid on the block) to take over integration of the internal build (which I do quite badly, by the way). Except we ran into problems, the infamous MIC CTD, whereby right-clicking on a MIC would crash the game, and also the annoying 8-unit max per MIC also caused problems.

At this point we had EB on RTW 1.5, except we didn't. We didn't have governments, we didn't have any recruitment and we didn't have any MICs; and that is not EB. We could have released that to the public, but that wasn't promise. We promised to move EB to RTW 1.5, but moving EB to RTW 1.5 and losing governments, recruitment and MICs, was not our promise. At all.

Moving EB to RTW 1.5 has with it the unstated assumption that it will somehow improve on or, at the very least, have the same function as 0.74. There is no business model I can think of whereby the next generation of output is actually less than previous output. Without governments, recruitment and MICs, we can certainly say that it did not have, at the very least, the same function as 0.74. Thus releasing would have been not following our original stated objectives.

Thankfully, Blacksnail was drafted into to work on a solution, which he did admirably. This solution is nothing new in its external function for the user (ie the player), it allows us to bring back governments, recruitment and MICs, but its internal components are far more complicated than 0.74's simpler design. But I will reiterate, this adds nothing new to the basic function for our government system. For most at least, though any other stuff is accidental and not decided upon to begin with.

Whilst work was going, which has only just been finished by the way, we continued working in other areas of the mod. Though I might mention that we had to gut EBBS, and so scripting hasn't added anything new. However, I digress. So many units were being created, we had to draft in a team to help Aymar with his work, they still haven't finished, we are just ironing out the bugs, and again that hasn't changed from our original position.

Quite frankly, I find your analysis and diagnosis of EB's problem to be quite, quite awful. It lacks many things, but mostly it lacks facts, and it is based upon suppositions and definitions that are formed from conjecture, conjecture that is obviously affected by ulterior motives (you cannot deny that conjecture is not affected so).

To your last point I will direct you to your ignorance of large scale mods. Everything is connected, everything. And so development in one area will affect development in another, and so development in secondary goals will affect development in primary goals, thus delaying the overall project. If you imagine that development in other areas of the mod would stop then yes we would have been able to keep 0.8 kosher in your strict definition of 0.8. But that would have been impossible as then we would have lost valuable people. So we kept developing secondary goals, and as I have already stated those secondary directly affect the primary goals. The primary goals haven't changed by that effect from the secondary goals, they stay the same in that the move to 1.5 and the integration of units is still the defining characteristic of 0.8. However they do change in content themselves (which we never stated they wouldn't), and this has been the cause of the delay for 0.8 for about the last month or so.

If you allow for the fact that fixing bugs that were introduced in 1.5, thus changing the content of the primary goals but not the goals themselves, then I would argue that you must accept that the inevitable development of secondary goals did not change the primary goals, but simply their content. If you respond in turn that because the content changed the original promise changed, I will point you to the above where I made clear that cessation of the development of secondary goals was not an option as that would have inevitably lead to the passing of many important members of our mod, and to lose key members in any business such as ours would be against your business model. EDIT: And losing key members would have most likely stopped us from moving to other promises, such as a full and complete EB for RTW 1.5 in the form of EB 1.0. We have come close to the mod collapsinig, and had it done so I do not think it would have been able to continue.

I find your description and analysis to be simplistic to the point where your argument only represents your viewpoint and ceases to be objective.

And your a prat. But that is an ad hominen attack so you can ignore that - you still are one though.

Foot

[Slartibardfast]

A successful buisness model, meets the goals it sets out to achieve, it doesn't continually change goals, but I hear talk about EB2, EB 0.9, and how great EB 0.8 is, when EB 0.8 isn't even out yet, or close to being polished...

With such a business plan you've obviously gone out of business a few times by now. A business that cannot adapt it's business plan to changing economic conditions, supply, demand, technological advances, drought, flood, etc; etc; is in deep "bottom line" trouble. This is why the fascist bully boys in suits changed to quarterly reports from yearly reports.

Fallen 851 please feel free to contact John Howard about a job in the Australian Treasury, you'll fit in well there.

Can I hit him, can I boss?

Feel free. If not I recently met a couple of Galactic Police officers who are looking to unwind from some personal problems. One of them has had his poetry book rejected once again.

EB's direction is what it has always been, historical accuracy and superb gameplay. Sorry Fallen851 we antipodeans don't use the term prat, you w****r.

[khelvan]

We can define something as whatever we want. I called it 0.8 because I thought we would have a lot more work to be done toward 1.0. I was wrong, as it turns out, because of what we had to overcome to get to the next major release.

Really, honestly, are you that hung up about a version number? Seriously? We tried to keep it to a standard, major releases being up one significant digit, but it doesn't mean anything.

Ok, EB members, does anyone object to us calling this version 0.9.2?

I'm serious about this. Does anyone object?

It is an arbitrary number. If I start referring to it as 0.9.2 it is 0.9.2.

[Laundreu]

Can we call it Project Occultus, aka Operation Bartix-Uber-Alles?

[blacksnail]

fallen851, 0.8 has always been defined internally as the 1.5 port. A requirement of the 1.5 port that we determined (back in late March, I believe) was a completely redone recruitment system, built from the ground up. This has not changed since March.

We are just now finishing up the recruitment system. This was not put on hold so that we could add all those other features Foot mentioned; the recruitment team was its own animal with a singular focus. The other features were added in parallel and in no way delayed the recruitment, which has been the key to 0.8 release since March.

[Big_John]

k-money, i'm giving you a thumbs up to green light the go ahead on movement towards 0.9.2.

[Shigawire]

I'd just like to say that I think this is the flaw in your logic that's forcing you to trip up over EB apparently so often.
It's a mod. And like most mods it's made by fans of the source material who wish to mold it into something greater. You can't compare it to any kind of business project. It's a hobby, if anything. So at the end of the day they can expand on their mod plans, and it shouldn't warrant rants (unless the modders have broken the game, then we can burn them!).

Hear Hear

Version numbers are abstract and meaningless. We might as well call it version -214.5 - perhaps abstract thought isn't his thing?
Fallen, I see a future for you in accounting!

If all this person can think of is some static business-model, I feel bad for him. This is a hobby, a passion, and it's.. art.

Fallen, do you have any idea what art is? It appears you don't. Why would you make great efforts to appear like an inhuman brainwashed drone looking for efficiency and expedience - unless you actually were one?

Although, the Olbermann reference in your signature is about the only positive thing I've seen about you.
Maybe you're just a socially abrasive person who are incapable of abstract thought.

[khelvan]

It should be noted that the changes to the recruitment system were not isolated to recruitment. The entire building system had to change to accomodate it.

Imagine this as a war-era tank. The goal of the next tank upgrade is to defeat the currently superior enemy armor in the field, and it is determined that upgrading the weapon is the best and most effective way to do this, along with, secondarily, improved armor. Tank MkIII has a 75mm short-barrelled cannon, and the designers state that MkIV will have an 88mm high-velocity cannon. So the new cannon is designed and built, with other improvements to optics, chassis shape, armor strength and slope, tread mechanics, engine efficiency, and so on to go with it and support the new design.

However, as the first prototypes are rolling off the line, field tests show that the system mechanics have previously undetected design flaws and fail at a rate close to 80%. The suspension can't handle the weight, and the engine just doesn't have enough horsepower to push the beast around. The tank will spend the majority of its "fighting" time under repair. So the designers have to design an entire new chassis & suspension complete with a brand new engine to handle the weapon and armor upgrades.

So now during these ensuing months, the designers of the other teams continue to improve on the other areas. The ammo is improved, the designers come up with an even more efficient armor scheme based on the new chassis & power specifications, a better tread design, a better interior layout, far superior optics, and so on.

The new prototype rolls of the line. The MkIV is a beauty of a tank, far superior in every way. The goal has been met, a better killing machine, able to defeat the existing enemies in spectacular fashion. Yes, the first design failed and had to be completely redone, but this did not mean that work stopped in the other areas. Nor did the upgrade to those other areas affect the core components. Compared to the engine and weapon systems the rest is just window dressing.

Our tank crashed and burned. Our prototypes never made it off the line before they broke down. The hard limits of the engine became readily apparent and we had to go back to the drawing board. The goal of our new weapon never left our sight, but the way we got there had to change dramatically. Sure, you'll see new treads, better quality armor, a more efficient exhaust system, even an experimental close-defense anti-infantry weapon that doubles as a smoke launcher for those really hairy armor battles, but none of that affected our engine design, and in fact happened in parallel.

As we stalled in one area, we improved in another.

[Laundreu]

EB's tank is fight

Your tank metaphor for a mod about ancient warfare is a thing of beauty, sir.

[Sarcasm]

[NeoSpartan]

Yesterday, 14:33 #1
fallen851
Do you know where my shirt is?
Member




Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 334


Where did this guy come from ???????

Dude wtf is up with you ????

Listen I ain't no modder, but I do know this and maybe you should UNDERSTAND IT :

..........................SH*T HAPPENS......................

So the EB team had to deal with it, and .8v took a longer time to be released.

If you have never had Sh*t Happened to you, trust me you soon will.... and when it does you will be mad, real mad.... hell u might even punch somebody.

[Cheexsta]

Whinge whinge whinge.

You'll get over it. Let the team deal with things the way they know how. I KNOW there have been lots of things happening behind the scenes that we know very little - if anything at all - about. The recruitment system, for example, where if you have any more than 8 units in a building's recruitment capabilities the game will CTD without error. Or if you right-click on a unit that requires buildings as conditionals, the game will CTD without error. Or the squillions of other unexpected CTDs that mods get when converting to the 1.5 patch. I KNOW of these problems, because I was directly involved in the RTR port to the latest patch.

Trust me, it was a bitch to do with RTR, and EB has a lot more complicated things in it. Hell, I even tried to port EB over to 1.5 myself once when I was bored. That didn't work too well, even with my previous knowledge of RTRPE.

So, while I'm sure many of the replies in this thread (and your previous thread) may have been a little...emotional and over-the-top, please understand that mod teams are not gods, do not always agree with each other and often have hidden obstacles to overcome. Modding is surprisingly stressful and is done on a voluntary basis, so please cut them a little slack and let them go about their business in their own way.

[CountArach]

Fallen 851 please feel free to contact John Howard about a job in the Australian Treasury, you'll fit in well there.

Seriously, had a good laugh at this one