Kerry part 2

[Lemur]

I have no idea what your comments have to do with anything I said. I didn't bring up anything remotely "anti-american" just asked a simple question.

Why do you hate freedom?

[yesdachi]

I'm not trolling here, this is a serious question;
How can a right-wing which idolises the military and its heroes despise a war hero while supporting a man who didn't step up to the plate during a time of war?

There is more to picking a president than their military record, and Kerry has pretty much spit on his own military record by repeatedly saying stupid things about the military. Kerry is scary looking, uncharismatic, flip flops, who disses the military, has a history of aligning with idiots, has had a drab political career and gets his money from his wife’s family (yummy Michigan pickles), and these are all things people don’t like. I would absolutely love it if the Democratic Party would give us a decent candidate. Please John Kerry, for the sake of your party, just retire.

[Don Corleone]

You raise some valid questions Iron Mortlock. I think the answers lie in:

-Only partisan Democrats really believe this fantasy that George W Bush used family influence to get into the Air National Guard, then partied his way through it the entire time. Likewise, he most likely got into Yale, and earned the grades he received there for better or worse, on his own merits. Your assuming a lot of facts not in evidence, and the primary document supporting this theory was proven to be a forgery, written by a Democratic party hack from Texas (who just happened to also be in Bush's Air National Guard unit).

-Above anything else, the Right believes in the sovereignty of the USA. When John Kerry said that he would begin his presidency by going around apologizing to the rest of the world, and then asking the UN for permission whenever he thoguht we needed to use force, he lost any hope of getting the right or the middle in this country. Americans may not agree with the war, but they certainly don't agree with the idea that France, Russia and China should have the right to dictate American policy to us.

-Americans as a whole respect people who actually believe in what they're saying. A majority of Americans do not agree with Bush's views on Iraq and the necesity of entering the conflict, but most agree that Bush himself actually believed in it and still does. Kerry on the other hand seems to take whatever position is politically expedient. That business about 'flip-flop'? That wasn't just namecalling. We don't want a leader that will do whatever he thinks is popular, or will get him the most votes. We want a guy who whether we agree with him or not will make some statements about where he stands and then will stand behind them. John Kerry seems utterly incapable of taking a principled stand of any sort, other than that he has the best hair.

[Fragony]

I have no idea what your comments have to do with anything I said.

It's not just this thread, you seem to have a fascination with america, for Japan counts the same as for Holland, if we dislike america so much we should just stop buying it. Our companies love the way america is, they don't back give the conservative plenty $ for their campaigns for nothing, we own a great chunk of the place and would love the place to stay the way it is.

[yesdachi]

John Kerry seems utterly incapable of taking a principled stand of any sort, other than that he has the best hair.

And that he hates W!

[Redleg]

Actually, I firmly believe anyone who voluntarily signs up for a war as idiotic as the On Terror one without the excuse of major economic incentives has to be pretty dim in at least some ways.

The problem seems that you have heard of the enlistment bonus that the military in the United States is giving for people to enlist into the service. It also seems that you are attempting to equate the United States all volunteer force to the military of your nation. The two do not necessarily equate to the same types of military.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...nlbonusnew.htm

The level of intelligence of the rank and file isn't actually terribly important anyway. Soldiers aren't supposed to think too much, but to do what they're told and trained to (by officers presumably chosen from among the smarter specimen). Something to do with same the logic behind the vertical/hierarchical chain of command, I understand.

Again it seems you do not have much in the way of accurate information about the United States Military. For instance what is the role of the Battalion Sergant Major in the United States Military. Take a look what influence this individual has at all levels of command, from Battalion to Corps.

Guess who I leaned on as a commander for sage advice on how to best command my troops. (Give you a hint, it was not a commissioned officer.)

The units that I served with - wanted all its soldiers to think about what they were doing. For instance I know of several occasions where the quick thinking of an NCO change the course of several training battles at the National Training Center. I know first hand the importance in changing the course of action for a division because of a non-commissioned officer during Desert Storm.

I would suggest some reading on the role of the NCO in the United States Army before believing that they are not required to think and lead. (For instance while I took the officer ranks, my younger brother went enlisted. You don't make First Sergeant in the United States Army if you can not think and lead, and I find it highly amusing when people believe that it does not take any intelligence to be in the military, given my own experiences in the service, while there are some true knuckleheads in the military, they are less then many would want to believe.)

Not the material, but how you use it you know ?

Exactly, which makes me wonder why you believe that enlisted soldiers are not required to think and lead?

[Lemur]

The units that I served with - wanted all its soldiers to think about what they were doing. For instance I know of several occasions where the quick thinking of an NCO change the course of several training battles at the National Training Center. I know first hand the importance in changing the course of action for a division because of a non-commissioned officer during Desert Storm.

This is pretty spot-on. One of the things that distinguishes a great military from a house of cards is the quality of the NCOs. Many commentators have pointed out that a fatal weakness in the Iraqi army of old was the lack of an NCO class -- there were the officers who disconnected whenever possible from hard work and danger, and the soldiers who were expected to obey and die.

That sort of army is fragile and hollow, as our latest conflict showed. You could lose the entire officer class and our military would still roll on, largely because of the strength of our NCO tradition. Any good account of D-Day will demonstrate the importance of non-officers who can lead and decide in the heat of battle.

Oh, and Don C's points about Bush/Kerry were very cogent, one of the best summations I've yet read. I'm not sure that suspicion about Bush's history is the exclusive province of lefty paranoids, but I'm sure it doesn't matter at this late date.

Kerry dug his own hole, time and time again. I'm kind of glad he messed up so badly. It would be great if this ended his political career; he's been a walking disaster for some time. A politician, by nature of his frickin' job, should know how to not say just the wrong thing at just the wrong moment.

[Kralizec]

-Only partisan Democrats really believe this fantasy that George W Bush used family influence to get into the Air National Guard, then partied his way through it the entire time. Likewise, he most likely got into Yale, and earned the grades he received there for better or worse, on his own merits. Your assuming a lot of facts not in evidence, and the primary document supporting this theory was proven to be a forgery, written by a Democratic party hack from Texas (who just happened to also be in Bush's Air National Guard unit).

Nevertheless I think it's funny that while a war was going on in Vietnam and while he was awarded a relatively safe job of guarding Texan airspace from a possible Vietcong attack, he still stressed out as there's no indication that he reported for work or physical exams for the last two years of his service.

30 years later, he crawls back into uniform shoot some nice pictures.

[Spino]

Preach on, Brother Watchman. Personally, in looking at the American electorate... more and more I'm starting to think Robert Heinlein was right Scary thought...

On the bounce trooper! MOVE IT!

[Tribesman]

Oh grow up Tribesman. We all know how the joke reads at surface level and now we all know what the speechwriter meant for him to say. Not to mention, as the reigning king of refusal to provide links, you've got some nerve demanding them from anyone.

Don't be silly Don , someone managed the amazing feat of posting what the previous poser had described as the little schoolkids answer , that deserves ridicule . I didn't demand a link to what Kerry said , the comment is already linked , Tex claimed rather fooishly that what he posted is what was said . since what was said has already been linked and is not what Tex claimed was said then he obviously has another source where the speech contains different words
I would be very interested in this other source , though I suspect it is only available to those who can pretend it exists in their imagination .

That is exactly what he said July 28 of this year. Or are you just being ignorant again? Sheesh, can't you do a little background research?

Nice try Rabbit , but no cigar . Feel free to prove me wrong in calling bull on that one .
Take the whole month of July , take the whole year if you like ,and show the speech where he says that , or anything even remotely similar .

But seriously , what is wrong with the rabid republican people .
Kerry is a bloody fool , yet again and again they have to invent things that he didn't say , misrepresent things that he did say , or take the occasional sensible things he said and call them stupid .
Can they not just attack the substance of Kerry , or his lack of it , insread of just spouting bullshit

[Don Corleone]

Don't be silly Don , someone managed the amazing feat of posting what the previous poser had described as the little schoolkids answer , that deserves ridicule . I didn't demand a link to what Kerry said , the comment is already linked , Tex claimed rather fooishly that what he posted is what was said . since what was said has already been linked and is not what Tex claimed was said then he obviously has another source where the speech contains different words
I would be very interested in this other source , though I suspect it is only available to those who can pretend it exists in their imagination .

Okay,first, I don't know if you have any idea how annoying it is when you make a complicated argument and insist on referring to each and every party as indirect pronouns: (this is how what you say comes out, to me)

Somebody said something that was some sort of a something, but somebody else might have said something that nobody thought was anything... Nobody has said anything that somebody didn't say that somebody said they didn't say or they didn't say it.

Second, if what you're trying to say above is that Big Tex stated that he was directly quoting Kerry, then you're right, I was absolutely wrong, and Big Tex should be called on it. But I missed that part. What I saw was Big Tex paraphrasing the joke. Or are you the only one that's allowed to paraphrase around here?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Nevertheless I think it's funny that while a war was going on in Vietnam and while he was awarded a relatively safe job of guarding Texan airspace from a possible Vietcong attack, he still stressed out as there's no indication that he reported for work or physical exams for the last two years of his service.

30 years later, he crawls back into uniform shoot some nice pictures.

Because, of course, he should have worn a dress suit in the plane instead of a flight suit.

Nice try Rabbit , but no cigar . Feel free to prove me wrong in calling bull on that one .
Take the whole month of July , take the whole year if you like ,and show the speech where he says that , or anything even remotely similar .

What? I think it is your imperative to look them up. Or are you just going to keep on making arguments that have no factual basis since you are unaware of important events?

But seriously , what is wrong with the rabid republican people .
Kerry is a bloody fool , yet again and again they have to invent things that he didn't say , misrepresent things that he did say , or take the occasional sensible things he said and call them stupid .

Eh, no we don't. We don't have to invent stupid things and claim he said them, he already says plenty of stupid things. Plus, as the swift boat thing and this proves, he's a really stupid political operator.

CR

[Goofball]

Goofball - I fall into a fourth category. I think Kerry is an idiot who screwed up and he's an elitist liar. He just didn't lie at that time.

Also a reasonable, defendable position, and one that I would be hard pressed to find fault with.

[Pindar]

I've never really understood why Americans of the right hate Kerry so much. Ok, I get the partisan thing but I mean the right-wing is famous for its glorification of the military and veterans etc. ...How can a right-wing which idolises the military and its heroes despise a war hero while supporting a man who didn't step up to the plate during a time of war?

Hi IRONxMortlock,

In addition to what Don posted I think its instructive to know the Right's distain for Kerry predates the rise of Bush by decades. The derision traces back to Kerry's Vietnam Era testimony before Congress (1971) where he charged U.S. Military war atrocities as the norm and aligned himself with the Winter Solider Investigation (1972). Kerry's stance was(is) taken as agenda ridden, disingenuous, and contributing to a domestic hostility toward the war that would ultimately lead to defeat.

[Tribesman]

What? I think it is your imperative to look them up. Or are you just going to keep on making arguments that have no factual basis since you are unaware of important events?

You are not very good at it are you Rabbit .
It was a very silly move to put in a specific date for the speech you imagined or did you think statements and speeches would be hard to find .

So ,you have the offer from the last post , surely even in that limited time frame you can find something that may make your claim slightly less of the bullshit variety .

Second, if what you're trying to say above is that Big Tex stated that he was directly quoting Kerry, then you're right, I was absolutely wrong, and Big Tex should be called on it. But I missed that part. What I saw was Big Tex paraphrasing the joke. Or are you the only one that's allowed to paraphrase around here?

What part did you miss.......
what he said was the US army is full of idiots.
.....so which part of the speech contained those words to paraphrase ?

[Tribesman]

edit to add to the last sentance.....or intent....

[Don Corleone]

What part did you miss.......
what he said was the US army is full of idiots.
.....so which part of the speech contained those words to paraphrase ?

"If you work hard in school, be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you wind up stuck in Iraq".

One possible interpretation of that, clearly, is that Kerry was speaking to the students. In this interpretation, Kerry is implying that those in the military didn't work hard in school or weren't smart. It is this interpretation that Big Tex was summarizing with "he said the US army is full of idiots".

I agree that the joke called for a dig at Bush, and him not being very bright and dragging us into Iraq, but that's hardly the only reasonable conclusion. Which meaning you seized upon will color how you paraphrase the joke.

[Tribesman]

In addition to what Don posted I think its instructive to know the Right's distain for Kerry predates the rise of Bush by decades. The derision traces back to Kerry's Vietnam Era testimony before Congress (1971) where he charged U.S. Military war atrocities as the norm and aligned himself with the Winter Solider Investigation (1972). Kerry's stance was(is) taken as agenda ridden, disingenuous, and contributing to a domestic hostility toward the war that would ultimately lead to defeat.

But atrocities as described were the norm , it was a very messy conflict .
What ultimately led to defeat is almost identical to the current conflict , domestic hostility is only one aspect of it .

[Sir Moody]

god people just let it rest the poor horse past on years ago....

[Pindar]

But atrocities as described were the norm...

That is a controversial stance that does not appear to have any supporting data. As I recall, studies that have gone in for such comparisons found less incidence than in say WWII. Regardless, Kerry's testimonial to such (comparing the U.S. Military's behavior to the Hordes of Ghengis Khan etc.) is one of the reasons he is despised by the Right.

[Prince of the Poodles]

The level of intelligence of the rank and file isn't actually terribly important anyway. Soldiers aren't supposed to think too much, but to do what they're told and trained to (by officers presumably chosen from among the smarter specimen). Something to do with same the logic behind the vertical/hierarchical chain of command, I understand.

I think Ive found the disconnect.

That concept is no longer supported by the American armed forces.

While soldiers are of course expected to follow orders, they are also expected to think for themselves.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You are not very good at it are you Rabbit .
It was a very silly move to put in a specific date for the speech you imagined or did you think statements and speeches would be hard to find .

Tribesy, tribesy, tribesy. You just haven't found the speech yet, have you?

Come back after looking a bit harder.

What part did you miss.......
what he said was the US army is full of idiots.
.....so which part of the speech contained those words to paraphrase ?

So, what should the odds on being obtuse vs not fully comprehending english be?

CR

[Kralizec]

Because, of course, he should have worn a dress suit in the plane instead of a flight suit.

I just thought it was ironic. But even then, I was wrong- a nice picture to show how much Bush loves the military can't have crossed his mind for a second, it was purely accidental. He also didn't know that the thanksgiving turkey was made out of plastic

That is a controversial stance that does not appear to have any supporting data. As I recall, studies that have gone in for such comparisons found less incidence than in say WWII.

Are you saying that the Vietnam was more "civil" then WWII? (bar the Russian front, wich was a horrorible nightmare)

[Pindar]

Are you saying that the Vietnam was more "civil" then WWII? (bar the Russian front, wich was a horrorible nightmare)

The comment concerns the U.S. Military and incidence of war crimes or similar atrocities based on the 71 testimony of Kerry before Congress. Kerry referenced Genghis Khan, I mentioned WWII as a easier frame of reference.

[Tribesman]

That is a controversial stance that does not appear to have any supporting data.

There is nothing contraversial about that stance at all , the hearings themselves provide supporting data , but the biggest supporting data would have been the Militaries own inquiries into practices used and events in Vietnam and neighbouring countries , but unfortunately the government re-classified them shortly after they were released under FOI .Apparently because the 9000pages of data contain names they cannot be released .

Tribesy, tribesy, tribesy. You just haven't found the speech yet, have you?

Still playing silly buggers eh rabbit .
Tell you what , you find any speech at all that Kerry made that friday and I will open a full page topic saying you ain't talking bullshit
hey , it don't even have to say the army is full of stupid people , any public comment from that day will do .
Until then .......

[Prince of the Poodles]

Do you do this to every thread?

[Goofball]

While I don't agree with all of the following, I found it interesting as it jibed well with my earlier "3 options" theme:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15519404/

[Tribesman]

While I don't agree with all of the following, I found it interesting as it jibed well with my earlier "3 options" theme:

Yep , there are several similar ones from various media outlets in the US and elsewhere .

[Kanamori]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Why must my civil life be determined by moronic public intrigue and surreal nightmares like this?

[AntiochusIII]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Why must my civil life be determined by moronic public intrigue and surreal nightmares like this?

Why? Democracy.

Just look at this thread. I'm sure the average interest in politics and enlightenment level of the Backroom frequenters is relatively higher than most of the population, and yet the sentiment, "Kerry insulted our troops!" is still very prevalent.

Quite frankly, some of the people just scream how sick they are of the government on one side and then go out to vote for them again on the other, with excuses such as "The lesser evil" or "Loyalty to my Party." Or better yet, "Kerry insulted our troops."