Kerry part 2

[IRONxMortlock]

Thanks for the answers guys.

So the real issue with Kerry then is that he fails to make a stand and appears to change his opinions on important topics depending on how the political winds are blowing?

However I would have thought alligning himself with the peace movement after he served two tours of duty in Veitnam would demonstrate that he does (or at least did) stick up for what he believes in. Surely that shows he can take a stand?
I guess for his "flip-flopping" on Iraq he could claim he was voting on the same crappy intelligence that Bush had rather than the pitiful excuse for war which anyone with a memory and some common sense could tell was a pack of lies (WMDs and threat to world) (I've got to stop throwing in little digs like this I know but I can't help it! Just irresistable to me.). Now that the truth has come out (and it's not political suicide to do so) he has changed his mind on the issue. I find that more admirable than senselessly sticking to your guns when your what you're trying to do is not working.

Just to let you know, I don't support Kerry. I think the guy's a bit of a smartarse to be frank. It's just that a lot of the criticism against him doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

Americans may not agree with the war, but they certainly don't agree with the idea that France, Russia and China should have the right to dictate American policy to us.

Unrelated to this Kerry thing, if you reverse the order of the countries in this sentance (i.e exchange Russia, China and France with America) it would go a long way to explaining why so many people in France, Russia and China dispise the US.

Because, of course, he should have worn a dress suit in the plane instead of a flight suit.

ROFL! You must be the only person in the world who believes Bush is wearing that costume for utilitarian purposes!
BTW - Anyone else here think they put a sock in his undies "We are Spinal Tap" style?

[Don Corleone]

Unrelated to this Kerry thing, if you reverse the order of the countries in this sentance (i.e exchange Russia, China and France with America) it would go a long way to explaining why so many people in France, Russia and China dispise the US.

How so? The last time we attempted to push the French on their policies was in the Suez, when our so-called alliance ended.

The only time we've ever dared to tell the Chinese what to do was when we 'advised' them that entering Taiwan, South Korea or Japan would be a mistake. As the third beneficiary of that protectorate, I would think a Japanese national would appreciate that we limit China's aggressive posturing (and we don't actually limit it all that much). China is a sovereign state, we respect that and do not interfere with their ability to protect themselves. But perhaps you are right and we should allow them to look for a little breathing room and withdraw our forces from the Pacific rim. Have fun.

As for Russia, I would really have to search the memory banks for the last time we've attempted to dictate policy to them. Well, we did let them know that we didn't appreciate their policy towards us in Cuba in 1962. Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.

Yet all of three of these nations, and others, feel free to dictate terms to the United States on what we can and cannot do to defend ourselves. Your gratitude is underwhelming.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'm not even sure about you anymore.

And What Happens to be your Point?

[IrishArmenian]

I picked B.

[BigTex]

What part did you miss.......
what he said was the US army is full of idiots.
.....so which part of the speech contained those words to paraphrase ?

Indeed he did state the US army is full of lazy idiots. Yes I did paraphrase the joke, that was refered to earlier in the paragraph you qouted.

education if you make the most of it, study hard and do your homework and make an effort to be smart you'll do well. If you don't you get stuck in iraq.

Ok english teaching time. If you are not smart, you are unintelligent also known as being an idiot. If you don't work hard, you are called lazy. He is stating wether he meant to or not (but since the speech was written out infront of him...) that the US armed forces are neither smart, nor do the work hard.

Yes he said he didn't mean it, and later the portion of the speech was shown. But when he spoke he didn't mention bush, he didn't mention the presidency he only mentioned the US armed forces.

[Keba]

Soldiers don't get stuck in Iraq, political leadership does ... I found the joke quite obvious, even before I learned of this whole mess.

Typical American, instead of interpreting everything the most polite way, you always go for the worst possible interpretation.

Oh, and I don't see in that snippet any mention of the US armed forces.

[Tribesman]

Indeed he did state the US army is full of lazy idiots. Yes I did paraphrase the joke, that was refered to earlier in the paragraph you qouted.

No he didn't

Ok english teaching time. If you are not smart, you are unintelligent also known as being an idiot. If you don't work hard, you are called lazy. He is stating wether he meant to or not (but since the speech was written out infront of him...) that the US armed forces are neither smart, nor do the work hard.

Yes he said he didn't mean it, and later the portion of the speech was shown. But when he spoke he didn't mention bush, he didn't mention the presidency he only mentioned the US armed forces.

Is English not your first language then ?
Tex try any language you like , any translation whatsoever , and show that the speech delivered does not mention the presidency or does mention the US armed forces .
Since your post leaves only two possible options
ayou havn't read or heard the speech
byou , like the president mentioned in the speech , have moved from the State of Texas and are in the state of denial .

Oh , add option c ...both of the above .

Oh, and I don't see in that snippet any mention of the US armed forces.

Well thats where it gets tricky Keba and hence the confusion .
If you get the whole speech instead of just the snippet , it is really amazing , as it doesn't contain any mention of it either .

[whyidie]

Typical American, instead of interpreting everything the most polite way, you always go for the worst possible interpretation.

You can't be properly outraged if you don't take the extreme view.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No he didn't

He certainly did. There was no mention of Bush getting us stuck there. He was speaking to students. This is a case of him saying what he really thinks instead of saying the bad joke that was written for him. Hes an elitist pure and simple. He probably thinks the only smart person ever to enter the military was him. He should have just apologised right from the start.

[Keba]

He certainly did. There was no mention of Bush getting us stuck there. He was speaking to students. This is a case of him saying what he really thinks instead of saying the bad joke that was written for him. Hes an elitist pure and simple. He probably thinks the only smart person ever to enter the military was him. He should have just apologised right from the start.

So, you know what he was thinking how? Telepathy?

Look, I'm not saying the guy's not an idiot for screwing up a joke like that, but this whole insulting the troops thing is even more foolish than Kerry is, and you have to try really hard to achieve that.

[Prince of the Poodles]

You dont know what he was thinking either...

His history on the military would lend itself to Gawain of Orkeney's point of view though.

[Kanamori]

Okay, I've tried to find things that Kerry's said about the military before, and all that I can find is general descriptions of his testimonies of widespread war-crimes comitted by American Soldiers and his general anti-war stance after coming back from Vietnam...

[Tribesman]

He certainly did. There was no mention of Bush getting us stuck there. He was speaking to students. This is a case of him saying what he really thinks instead of saying the bad joke that was written for him. Hes an elitist pure and simple. He probably thinks the only smart person ever to enter the military was him. He should have just apologised right from the start.

Another one residing in the great State of Denial .

So Gawain , undoubtably you can find a reference from the speech actually refering to the military being the carreer choice for idiots and also show an absence of the the reference which preceeded the 10 second snippet where he is talking about Bush being the idiot .
Until then you havn't got a leg to stand on .

[Meneldil]

Yet all of three of these nations, and others, feel free to dictate terms to the United States on what we can and cannot do to defend ourselves. Your gratitude is underwhelming.

Come on Don, what he was speaking about is the way the US pretend to always know what is good for everyone and what is not. How the US don't give a crap about the UN, how the US quite often regard their ally as sh*t whenever the given allies don't agree with US' policies.

Of course, France does the same thing, just as China and Russia, but France doesn't have neither the same political nor military power as the US

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So Gawain , undoubtably you can find a reference from the speech actually refering to the military being the carreer choice for idiots

And you can find one to Bush? Just read what he said.

Until then you havn't got a leg to stand on

So, you know what he was thinking how? Telepathy?

No Im going by his track record.

Okay, I've tried to find things that Kerry's said about the military before, and all that I can find is general descriptions of his testimonies of widespread war-crimes comitted by American Soldiers and his general anti-war stance after coming back from Vietnam...

How about the comment on US troops terrorizing Iraqi women and children in the middle of the night?

[Lemur]

Personal favorite: "To maintain control of Congress, Republicans must exhume and re-animate the bloated political corpse of John Kerry, so that they can kill him again."

[Gawain of Orkeny]

"To maintain control of Congress, Republicans must exhume and re-animate the bloated political corpse of John Kerry, so that they can kill him again."

Duh. He did it himself. He opened his dumb mouth. He and Gore are the gifts that just keep on giving. To think thatv these two were the last two democratic candidates for president is really scary. Notice that the democrats have hidden away Pelosi and and Dean so that they wont cause further trouble until after the election.

[Brenus]

“Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.” And the fact you had nuclear war head at 5 km from their borders never occurred to you? (Turkey)

“Yet all of three of these nations, and others, feel free to dictate terms to the United States on what we can and cannot do to defend ourselves. Your gratitude is underwhelming.” Why China and Russia should be grateful, for what exactly?

France should be grateful and is, however, it doesn’t give the right to US to ask France to follow blindly in an adventure every body knew it was smelling fish: because actually it was more the US who “feel free to dictate terms” than the others. Who told “our intelligence said”, “we know that”, “link with Al-Quaida”, “believe us” and all the other deliberate lies? I don’t believe the CIA is just an incompetent bunch of people, nor the MI5, or 6.
So France should have follow, sending her soldiers to die because Bush and Blair decide to lie? You ask a lot on the name of gratefulness, are you?

Now about Kerry, I still don’t understand how the Americans can see a guy who never fought as a war hero and the guy who actually earn a Medal of Honour as almost a traitor…
And if you want statistics, just go on ratio of Orange Agent, Napalm and tons of Iron flooded on Vietnam and you will understand why perhaps some comparisons were done…

[Kralizec]

“Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.” And the fact you had nuclear war head at 5 km from their borders never occurred to you? (Turkey)

How would that have comforted any American living then? And the American public didn't know about the missiles in Turkey at that point)
Kruschev's backing off at the end of the missile crises was thus interpreted as a factual US victory, the truth was that as an exchange the missiles in Turkey were dismantled and/or moved.

Kenedy did a good job handling the crisis. Mcnamera wanted to bomb Cuba back to the stone age till Kenedy dissuaded him. A I remember from a documentary that years later a Russian general told Mcnamera that the USSR had operating missiles at that point and would have retaliated. According to the documentary Mcnameras face went entirely pale

[Redleg]

How would that have comforted any American living then? And the American public didn't know about the missiles in Turkey at that point)
Kruschev's backing off at the end of the missile crises was thus interpreted as a factual US victory, the truth was that as an exchange the missiles in Turkey were dismantled and/or moved.

Only some - there was still a nuclear weapons storage site maintained in Turkey until all battlefield nuclear weapons were removed from the inventory after the fall of the Soviet Union. In fact in the 1970's the Turks wanted access to the weapons and a potential crisis developed between the United States and Turkey over the issue.

Kenedy did a good job handling the crisis. Mcnamera wanted to bomb Cuba back to the stone age till Kenedy dissuaded him. A I remember from a documentary that years later a Russian general told Mcnamera that the USSR had operating missiles at that point and would have retaliated. According to the documentary Mcnameras face went entirely pale

The Cuban Missle Crisis and the Speech at the Berlin Wall are the two main history lessons of the Kennedy Adminstration

[Seamus Fermanagh]

“Yes, what a bunch of warmongers we were, not wanting nuclear warheads parked 30 miles off our coast.” And the fact you had nuclear war head at 5 km from their borders never occurred to you? (Turkey)

Cuba and Florida are roughly 90 miles apart.

I sincerely doubt we'd have stationed missile less than 5 klicks from the Soviet border -- too close and too tempting for a commando raid/surprise attack.

Yes, we did have missiles in Turkey at the time of the Cuban Crisis. Yes they were withdrawn shortly afterwards. Yes some have made the argument that this was a "de facto" arrangement between the governments, though no concrete proof has surfaced. It is known that the missiles did annoy the Soviets.

[Brenus]

“I sincerely doubt we'd have stationed missile less than 5 klicks from the Soviet border”: It was a figure of speech. I could have spoke about USSR feeling to be surrounded by potential enemies. In their point of view, to put nuclear warheads in Cuba was jut the answer of the Sheppard to the Wolf.

[Xiahou]

Kerry "botches" another joke.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

“I sincerely doubt we'd have stationed missile less than 5 klicks from the Soviet border”: It was a figure of speech. I could have spoke about USSR feeling to be surrounded by potential enemies. In their point of view, to put nuclear warheads in Cuba was jut the answer of the Sheppard to the Wolf.

I agree. There were definitely a good few in the politburo who thought that arming Cuba would be no more than a "quid pro quo" to counter the Jupiters we already had deployed in Turkey.

The scary part was how close we came to a nuke war in that incident. Soviet sources and interviews after the breakup in 89-91 confirmed that the local Soviet commander had a couple of tac nukes, knew himself to be outclassed, and would have used them on the US invasion fleet if we had tried the other approach, which was an airstrike followed by a landing.

While the USA would have won the resulting strategic exchange -- our missile were more reliable than theirs as well as equal in numbers at that point, and our bomber fleet would have penetrated reasonably well -- the casualties in such a war would have been ghastly.

[yesdachi]

Typical American, instead of interpreting everything the most polite way, you always go for the worst possible interpretation.

I didn’t realize there was a polite way to interpret it.

[Keba]

I didn’t realize there was a polite way to interpret it.

There is ... first, you think of the context. It is election time, and the campaign is mostly about low blows, which means insulting other politicians is common. Then you think of what Kerry was talking about, and it wasn't the military.

Thus, the sole conclusion possible is that he was talking about the President of the US ... after all, he did get stuck in Iraq, something even his dad didn't manage to do. After all, Bush was expousing the whole 'Stay the course' thing, thus, he was the one stuck there.

How any sane person could draw the conclusion that Kerry was talking about the soldiers is totally beyond me.

[yesdachi]

There is ... first, you think of the context. It is election time, and the campaign is mostly about low blows, which means insulting other politicians is common. Then you think of what Kerry was talking about, and it wasn't the military.

Thus, the sole conclusion possible is that he was talking about the President of the US ... after all, he did get stuck in Iraq, something even his dad didn't manage to do. After all, Bush was expousing the whole 'Stay the course' thing, thus, he was the one stuck there.

How any sane person could draw the conclusion that Kerry was talking about the soldiers is totally beyond me.

Neither insulting the troops nor insulting the president is “polite” IMO. Pot shot taken in front of students is in poor taste to me, but I guess constructive criticism doesn’t get as many minutes on CNN.

[Keba]

I never said I agreed with it, liked it, or would vote for the schmuck if I were an American. Hell, even I think the guy's useless and worse than Bush.

However, this thing annoys me enough to stand up for the guy.

EDIT: Whoops, tiny mistake.

[Goofball]

Ok english teaching time. If you are not smart, you are unintelligent also known as being an idiot. If you don't work hard, you are called lazy. He is stating wether he meant to or not (but since the speech was written out infront of him...) that the US armed forces are neither smart, nor do the work hard.

English Lesson Part Two:

Today's new word:

con·text (kntkst) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

Pay particular attention to 1, as it is very important to this discussion. Rather than type it all out myself, I'm just going to quote from the article I posted previously, as it explains it very clearly. So clearly in fact, that only those who really don't want to understand it won't be able to after reading it.

Sen. Kerry, as you well know, spoke at a college in Southern California. With bitter humor he told the students that he had been in Texas the day before, that President Bush used to live in that state, but that now he lives in the state of denial.
He said the trip had reminded him about the value of education — that “if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
The senator, in essence, called Mr. Bush stupid.
The context was unmistakable: Texas; the state of denial; stuck in Iraq. No interpretation required.

There's that pesky "context" word again...

Yes he said he didn't mean it, and later the portion of the speech was shown. But when he spoke he didn't mention bush, he didn't mention the presidency he only mentioned the US armed forces.

As shown above, he did mention Bush. But you and the rest of the Republican party chose not to include that in your quoting of him.

Yuck. This thread is leaving a bad taste in my mouth, having to defend a guy who I think actually is an idiot, but for different reasons than those stated in the thread.

[Don Corleone]

Come on Don, what he was speaking about is the way the US pretend to always know what is good for everyone and what is not. How the US don't give a crap about the UN, how the US quite often regard their ally as sh*t whenever the given allies don't agree with US' policies.

Of course, France does the same thing, just as China and Russia, but France doesn't have neither the same political nor military power as the US

(And also responding to Brenus)

The gratitude comment is a fragment that I missed when I removed a portion of the post that I believe our ROK & Japanese orgahs might have found offensive. I did not mean to leave it in, and it certainly did not refer to France, China or Russia. Sorry for the confusion.