Gun Control

[Crazed Rabbit]

I assume your gripe with registration is the chance that in the future a government may use it to confiscate your weapons, right?

You assume correctly. This has already happened in a couple US states, and AUstralia, for example.

If we put that reason aside for a moment, what else? I don't see it being "totally useless", unless the law isn't being enforced properly.
What reason would you have against it if you're planning on following the law?

Criminals won't register their guns. They won't leave their guns at a crime scene, either.

Yeah you can always rely on the NRA for solid bias

Are you disputing the accuracy of those figures? Or just attempting another logical fallacy by attacking the messenger and ignoring their argument?

So 25% of violent crime does involve guns then .

Congratulations, you can read and understand English.

Yep since possesion of an unlicensed gun is a crime with firearms , possesion of a relica weapon is a crime with firearms , incorrest storage of ammunition is a gun crime , having the wrong type of gun cabinet is crime with firearms .
Do you remember the recent Metropolitan police swoop that added over 800 gun crimes to the figures ? all for one individual arms dealer , and mainly over storage and paperwork "gun crimes"

That, and the fact that the amount of actual (ie not those you discuseed, but muggings and the like) crimes with guns have increased.

CR, I am guilty of extremely poor writing. What I meant to express was that the likelihood of a gun being used in self defense is lower than the likelihood of it being used by a family member in an accidental discharge. You would never know it from my sloppy phrasing, but that's the idea I was going for. My bad.

Um, once again I don't think that is true nationally, though variation will occur depending on how safe people are.

CR

[Lemur]

Um, once again I don't think that is true nationally, though variation will occur depending on how safe people are.

Interesting point. I'm going to have to do some research on the issue -- I remember the study I read about percentage odds of gun usage was almost a decade ago, and for the life of me I can't find it now. I just spent almost two whole minutes Googling, and all I could come up with were blatantly partisan studies.

I'm going to see if I can find some numbers, and I'm wide open to being wrong on this point. I take it you don't disagree with the main thrust of my post, that security should involve layers, and not just rest on gun ownership?

[lars573]

And you have very adequately demonstrated what has always been my main point in any gun control thread. Its not the weapon but the person that causes problems.

Proper gun use is side issue to ownership. A very important side issue, but a side issue.

Yep to determine the baised inherient in your arguement.

I'm pretty moderate for compared to some Canadians on gun control. In fact gun control is one of the few areas I disagree with most Canadian lefties.

Your nation's laws are different then my nations laws. For instance all weapons have to be registered when they are purchased. Do people violate this law? Yes and they should be punished for violating the law, but that does not equate to someone dicating to me how many weapons I can own or not own.

This is wrong on so many levels. Why do you feel the need to limit the amount of property that I own?

You have no idea. Here the government is perfectly within it's constitutional rights to limit what property a private citizen can own. When the money pit gun registration act (a billion dollars up in flames) came into effect it also put new limits on what type and bore wepaons a person could own. All gun owners were required to bring all their weapons to RCMP run registrtion fairs to have their weapons registered and inspected. If someones weapons fell outside these new regulations the mounties conficated it and destroyed it. No joke, no exageration. This happened. If you didn't go to one of the fairs you had 1 year to bring your guns for inspection. Otherwise the mounties were authorized to come and take all your guns to inpect them and fine you. Course that was mostly a scare tactic. It only happened a few times.

I know hunters that use all three types of allowed hunting. Black Powder, Bow, and Rifle. Black powder hunting is actually the hardest, since bow hunting is now done primarily with compound bows that do not require as much upper body strength to draw and hold the arrow prior to release.

Still I prefer the idea of bow hunting to firearms. The range and power they have over even a compound bow seems unfair to the game.

Try walking the hills of Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana when you hunt. Its extremely hard even with a rifle. That has been by far the most sporting of any of the hunting I have ever done. Tough Terrian, one has to stalk their prey, and even then because of the terrain many miss their shot and the animal gets to bound away with the bullet hitting the ground above or below them. Far more difficult then any bow hunt that I have ever been on. Which for the most part - especially in Texas, Oklahoma (primarily Eastern OK), Arkansas, and Lousiana where one must hunt from a blind - your not allowed to walk the terrain because its mostly scrub oaks and thick brush.

I've never been outside the forrests of the maritimes. Which is like Maine for the most part. Thick young growth fur forrests. Some swamps, with Moose in them. That's one critter I wouldn't want to hunt without a gun. Mean SOB's Moose are. Bulls especially.

OK, I can see if you read Don's post that way, how you might make your conclusion. However, I re-read what he wrote and cannot see how that meaning can be attributed except through the lens of prejudice.

Though we differ on many things, I cannot quite bring myself to believe Don runs about his neighbourhood shooting from the hip at every furry animal that pops its head out of cover and then feasts on its still dripping corpse.

He said local area. That means the county he lives in. I also have a huge problem with people shooting things with a real gun in their yard. Which he claims he does. Heck I have deer in my local area. They ate all the vegtables my grandfather planted in the back yard this summer. But it's not legal to hunt them here though. I'm also fairly sure he cooks his kills, you know a little to keep the bacteria down.

[Geezer57]

Yeah you can always rely on the NRA for solid bias

Actually, most of the info quoted by the NRA is from government or university studies, and doesn't originate with the NRA. Sure, they pick and choose to emphasise their point of view, but what special-interest group doesn't? The NRA is far, far, more objective than ANY of the anti-gun groups - if they didn't have a firm basis for their claims, they'd be subjected to even more hysterical ranting than what happens ordinarily. On the other hand, the anti organizations tend to make up their "facts" from thin air.

So 25% of violent crime does involve guns then .

The point is simply, since the overwhelming majority of violent crime does not involve guns, that regulating guns in an attempt to "control crime" is unproductive.

Yep since possesion of an unlicensed gun is a crime with firearms , possesion of a relica weapon is a crime with firearms , incorrest storage of ammunition is a gun crime , having the wrong type of gun cabinet is crime with firearms .
Do you remember the recent Metropolitan police swoop that added over 800 gun crimes to the figures ? all for one individual arms dealer , and mainly over storage and paperwork "gun crimes"

I'm sure that "paper" gun crimes are a small factor, but since the various UK gun bans have been put in effect the rate of hot home invasions (residents are present), assaults, rapes, etc. have all risen. And these are definitely not paper gun crimes. This is not something the UK politicos want broadcast, so they've been doing everything in their power to downplay these occurrences. But it's pretty clear to anyone who wants to dig into the issue that violent crime rates in most (not all) categories are now higher in the UK than in the USA. The disarming of the population, the elimination of any legal self-defense justification, etc., have all (unintentionally?) contributed to making the problem worse.

The last place you want to look for "solid" info would be the NRA , no more than you would rely on an anti-firearm group for "solid" info.

Actually, this conclusion of yours is just uninformed - have you even been to the NRA's website? There's a wealth of good information, firearms history, hunter safety, the Eddie Eagle child safety education, etc., etc.
On the other hand, I've been to most of the major anti-gun sites, looked at their "research", followed up on the claims, and found most of it to be so flawed and emotional as to be worthless.
So yes, outside of political appeals (where everybody is way too glandular), the NRA's info on this issue is much more "solid" than their counterparts on the opposite side.

[Watchman]

...just how often do I need to see this "guns reduce crime" junk, I wonder ? Most countries get along right fine with low crime rates despite the citizenry not being armed to the teeth for their own protection you know.

The quality of law enforcement systems might of have rather more to do with it.

[Redleg]

Proper gun use is side issue to ownership. A very important side issue, but a side issue.

This I disagree with - proper gun use negates the issue around ownership. If people who owned weapons treated them with the responsiblity inherient with ownership - the ownership of weapons would not be an issue. A nation that serves a good examble of this is Switzerland (SP) and a few other nations where militia weapons are assigned and stored in individual homes.

I'm pretty moderate for compared to some Canadians on gun control. In fact gun control is one of the few areas I disagree with most Canadian lefties.

However you still approach the area with a baised viewpoint about restricting ownership, which is why I was initially obtruse.

You have no idea. Here the government is perfectly within it's constitutional rights to limit what property a private citizen can own. When the money pit gun registration act (a billion dollars up in flames) came into effect it also put new limits on what type and bore wepaons a person could own. All gun owners were required to bring all their weapons to RCMP run registrtion fairs to have their weapons registered and inspected. If someones weapons fell outside these new regulations the mounties conficated it and destroyed it. No joke, no exageration. This happened. If you didn't go to one of the fairs you had 1 year to bring your guns for inspection. Otherwise the mounties were authorized to come and take all your guns to inpect them and fine you. Course that was mostly a scare tactic. It only happened a few times.

Well this gives ammunition to stroke the far right's fear's about gun registration for the United States. This is exactly the fear of many individuals concerning gun control. I don't necessarily believe that the United States will take that course of action with gun registration, but it does provide international presedence of just such a thing happening.

Still I prefer the idea of bow hunting to firearms. The range and power they have over even a compound bow seems unfair to the game.

I don't have a problem with that viewpoint at all. I don't believe hunting from a tree blind is fair to the game either. (One of the primary reasons why I do not hunt in Texas is just this. I prefer hunting in the open where I have to have some woodcraft.)

I've never been outside the forrests of the maritimes. Which is like Maine for the most part. Thick young growth fur forrests. Some swamps, with Moose in them. That's one critter I wouldn't want to hunt without a gun. Mean SOB's Moose are. Bulls especially.

Terrain often dictates what weapon is best for hunting. I wouldn't want to go hunting for moose even with a gun - happen to watch a Bull Moose win a fight with a Volkswagon bug one day. Rather humorous to watch after knowing that the driver was able to escape.

[Tribesman]

That, and the fact that the amount of actual (ie not those you discuseed, but muggings and the like) crimes with guns have increased.

So you mean actual crimes where guns are used to enable criminals to commit crimes rather than the technical gun crimes .
I see you use the word "fact" in your statement , now that is interesting .

You see , it is a fact that "gun crimes" in the broader sense have increased , however it is a fact that Britains largest police authority says that actual gun enabled crime has dropped .
So would you like to guess by how big a percentage gun enabled crime has dropped , or would you prefer to believe the NRA bull ?

I'm sure that "paper" gun crimes are a small factor, but since the various UK gun bans have been put in effect the rate of hot home invasions (residents are present), assaults, rapes, etc. have all risen. And these are definitely not paper gun crimes.

I take it you get your "solid" data from the NRA without checking it then
Do you notice how out of date many of those quoted snippets of "solid data" are .

Actually, this conclusion of yours is just uninformed - have you even been to the NRA's website?

OMG !!!!!!!! it never crossed my mind to actually read what the NRA has to say before I slagged them for misrepresentation and bias , how could I have ever been so silly

Sometimes this is just too easy

[Don Corleone]

Shame on me. I just reread my series of posts in this thread last night. While I stand behind everything I said, I really don't care for the tone that I employed at all. I was boorish and rude.

Kralizec, I apologize. I have no excuse for my behavior.

[lars573]

This I disagree with - proper gun use negates the issue around ownership. If people who owned weapons treated them with the responsiblity inherient with ownership - the ownership of weapons would not be an issue. A nation that serves a good examble of this is Switzerland (SP) and a few other nations where militia weapons are assigned and stored in individual homes.

I don't see it that way.

However you still approach the area with a baised viewpoint about restricting ownership, which is why I was initially obtruse.

I believe that gun ownership for sport, however distastful I find it, isn't inherently wrong. I believe very limited gun ownership should be allowed.

Well this gives ammunition to stroke the far right's fear's about gun registration for the United States. This is exactly the fear of many individuals concerning gun control. I don't necessarily believe that the United States will take that course of action with gun registration, but it does provide international presedence of just such a thing happening.

Well that's only part 1. Part 2 is how a registry initative that the Liberals promised would curb illegal guns, and only cost 100 million. Didn't curb anything illegal, and ended up costing 1 billion dollars. It caused legal and responsible gun owners to be treated like ex cons. If you legislation ends up treating people doing the right thing like crooks then your legislation is bad, IMO.

I don't have a problem with that viewpoint at all. I don't believe hunting from a tree blind is fair to the game either. (One of the primary reasons why I do not hunt in Texas is just this. I prefer hunting in the open where I have to have some woodcraft.)

I don't know if there is limits on how you can hunt with a bow here. Other than bow season for deer starts a month before gun season.


[QUOTE=Terrain often dictates what weapon is best for hunting. I wouldn't want to go hunting for moose even with a gun - happen to watch a Bull Moose win a fight with a Volkswagon bug one day. Rather humorous to watch after knowing that the driver was able to escape.[/QUOTE]
When my dad was around 7 he went ot a family gathering in a plae called Brookside. It's where my grand dad was born. Anyway my uncle and him were playing at the river bank when they happened upon a bull Moose. They startled it and it chased them. All the way back to the family homestead. Grand-dad scared it off some how. Also my neighbour who has aboriginal status went Moose hunting in September. Bagged a bull.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I don't see it that way.



I believe that gun ownership for sport, however distastful I find it, isn't inherently wrong. I believe very limited gun ownership should be allowed.



Well that's only part 1. Part 2 is how a registry initative that the Liberals promised would curb illegal guns, and only cost 100 million. Didn't curb anything illegal, and ended up costing 1 billion dollars. It caused legal and responsible gun owners to be treated like ex cons. If you legislation ends up treating people doing the right thing like crooks then your legislation is bad, IMO.



I don't know if there is limits on how you can hunt with a bow here. Other than bow season for deer starts a month before gun season.



When my dad was around 7 he went ot a family gathering in a plae called Brookside. It's where my grand dad was born. Anyway my uncle and him were playing at the river bank when they happened upon a bull Moose. They startled it and it chased them. All the way back to the family homestead. Grand-dad scared it off some how. Also my neighbour who has aboriginal status went Moose hunting in September. Bagged a bull.

made some good points there m8. Can't do major laws on Gun Owners here in the US... One meaning becauses My family is a hunting Family, and I tend to hunt this year, or Next Year at latest, and I don't want gun laws to F it up.Also, self defense. I hear on Channel 2 KDKA News about all these shootings and such, and people can say "Bans with fix the ploblem". Eh, no it work. Organized Groups of Crime will always gets Gun,if bans are in place. Also, Self Defense. I love it how I see stories on the news, of how this 80 some year old woman pull out a gun during a hold up, and chase the robber off. And it Also makes it sick how I see how a Old Couple also got Beaten down in a Home Invasion. Gun Bans should be in place eh? Proably no one cares,but what's funny is my Grandfather was a trap shooter, and he keeps a hand gun somewhere (it a sercert :) ) in case someone breaks in, and he's loaded with so many bullets and guns, my god, he could have a small Army, Honest to god.

[lars573]

Violent crime is going to happen whether you have weapon laws or not. I hear of home invasions and hold ups too. But they happen by people armed with knifes or a shotgun. About the easiest weapons to get hold of.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Of Course, Like I said. Even if you banned Guns, ppl will still using Knifes,etc..., then when ppl start killing other people, in murders and self-defense, what you going to do then, ban knifes??

[Ice]

You must be joking....Right?

So ok, Let me get this. Say,someone breaks into my house, wants to kill me,my wife and kis,for example. I'll go up to him and ask him to stop,instead of blowing his head clean off his body for threating my family? Ok,mabye I was to blunt in what I would do with him, but plain and simple.
Now if he breaks in just to Rob, I might get Push him around abit, broken arm should teach him then.

One Reason that Makes me believe is this,is the following that happen 2 houses away from me, where I live

2 houses down from me, in the Summer of 2005, This Family that lives that, were letting their Kids camp outside. Ok, so one night, the youngest one, I guess at that time 11 or 12 mabye, look outside the camp, and Saw a Man,yes a Man, standing not to far away from the tent. So they ending up running inside, and calling the cops, and the Cops Search Their Backyard,The House Next to Us,their backyard, and my backyard, and Never found the guy,that you go.
I don't even wanna think what would have happen if the kid didn't wake up and saw him when he did......

Warman, he was being sarcastic.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Ice,I didn't take it like That,not untill I read some of the later post did I see he was being sarcastic, not a joking person.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm going to see if I can find some numbers, and I'm wide open to being wrong on this point. I take it you don't disagree with the main thrust of my post, that security should involve layers, and not just rest on gun ownership?

Certainly. The gun is a last resort; ideally you would not need it. Alarms (like dogs) and locks are great.

I recall that the antis used to moan on about how people were '43 times more likely' to use a gun against a family member or some such nonsense, based on a study by a Mr. Kellerman. This study was full of methodological errors, and Kellerman admitted as much somewhat recently.

I believe that gun ownership for sport, however distastful I find it, isn't inherently wrong. I believe very limited gun ownership should be allowed.

I'm curious, what do you find distasteful about the mechanical process of firing a gun? Is it the combustion of chemicals that irritates you? Or perhaps the propulsions of a metal projectile? Or is it the combination of factors from pulling the trigger to the bullet leaving the muzzle?

tribesy...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5195910.stm

The latest crime figures include a 10% rise in gunpoint robberies.

Violent crime overall rose 2% last year, with use of handguns in crime up 7% to 4,652 offences...serious injuries from firearms incidents were up 16%.

Of course, the BBC is biased...

CR

[lars573]

I'm curious, what do you find distasteful about the mechanical process of firing a gun? Is it the combustion of chemicals that irritates you? Or perhaps the propulsions of a metal projectile? Or is it the combination of factors from pulling the trigger to the bullet leaving the muzzle?

Using a gun to kill animals for fun. Killing something when you don't have too is a waste. Of your time and energy, and the animals life. If your going to do that you should be stacking the deck in the animals favor.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Not all gun sports involve hunting, you know. In fact, in the US I think more people are involved in gun sports like target shooting competitions than hunting, or just going to a local range and shooting off some rounds.

CR

[lars573]

Just as bad.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Wait, are you saying target shooting at inanimate wooden targets is just as bad as killing animals for fun?

I suppose I must reask my original question;

I'm curious, what do you find distasteful about the mechanical process of firing a gun? Is it the combustion of chemicals that irritates you? Or perhaps the propulsions of a metal projectile? Or is it the combination of factors from pulling the trigger to the bullet leaving the muzzle?

CR

[yesdachi]

Gun Control? Humm, a topic I have never seen in the backroom before.

I like guns and enjoy firing them. I think any issues with them are actually issues with people, and that is why I completely support licenses, registrations and proper training. I consider gun ownership a freedom we have the option to enjoy if we desire.

[Major Robert Dump]

My idea of gun control is:

You control your gun, I'll control mine. KThnxBye.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Going Hunting is not Wrong, Netheir is going Trap Shooting or anything else,my god. It is quite fun sitting at a Window, waiting for a Rabbit/Grondhog to come out so you can shoot it dead with a .22 with a scope on it, like myself..

[Ser Clegane]

You do not see anything wrong in sitting at a window and killing rabbits/groundhogs just for the fun of it?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Going Hunting is not Wrong, Netheir is going Trap Shooting or anything else,my god. It is quite fun sitting at a Window, waiting for a Rabbit/Grondhog to come out so you can shoot it dead with a .22 with a scope on it, like myself..

You see, that's the kind of irresponsible behaviour that gets gun owners and hunters a bad name.

Really, what on earth do you get out of that?

[Mithrandir]

Going Hunting is not Wrong, Netheir is going Trap Shooting or anything else,my god. It is quite fun sitting at a Window, waiting for a Rabbit/Grondhog to come out so you can shoot it dead with a .22 with a scope on it, like myself..

You're 14 right ?

14 year olds are allowed to own guns and go hunting ?

[Blodrast]

Going Hunting is not Wrong, Netheir is going Trap Shooting or anything else,my god. It is quite fun sitting at a Window, waiting for a Rabbit/Grondhog to come out so you can shoot it dead with a .22 with a scope on it, like myself..

awww man, c'mon, it's fun!
When I was a kid, like 20 something years ago, I used to tear flies' legs and/or wings, and then drown them and stuff... think about all the fun I could have had if I had had a gun, why, I could have sat at my window shooting puppies, and stray cats, and birds... fun, I tell you, fun!

[Crazed Rabbit]

You're 14 right ?

14 year olds are allowed to own guns and go hunting ?

I'm not quite sure on gun owning laws, though I believe kids can own guns, but can't buy them. And I don't of any age limit on hunting, though I'd imagine in most states it depends on what's being hunted, and the age minimum may be from 6-12. As it is, kids suffer the least hunting accidents of any age groups. Despite this, anti-gun and anti-hunting groups are trying to scare people with crap like 'kids have high-powered sniper rifles!'.

CR

[Scurvy]

Going Hunting is not Wrong, Netheir is going Trap Shooting or anything else,my god. It is quite fun sitting at a Window, waiting for a Rabbit/Grondhog to come out so you can shoot it dead with a .22 with a scope on it, like myself..

I don;t think hunting is wrong - as long as you eat watever you shoot, at least that way its not wasted

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

You see, that's the kind of irresponsible behaviour that gets gun owners and hunters a bad name.

Really, what on earth do you get out of that?

um no. have a nice garden every year at my grandpartents. Usally my Grandfather killed them, becauses we usally didn't put up a fence. But since he lost most of his eyesight, and since they,the animals, kept trying to get under the fence this year, and 1 did, I kill them.
That's isn't irreponsilbe, it's called being helpful. What to disagree? Then whatever.



And Mith, Yes. a 14 year old can go hunting, but have to take a Hunting class first.it is required in my state.

[BDC]

Iraq has very relaxed gun law enforcement. I hear it's helped the security situation there a lot...

:)