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Thread: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Post Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    That known bastion of liberal elite quisling fifth-column ... oh, no wait, it's the Army Times. Anyway, they're publicly calling on Rumsfeld to go, a position I agree with wholeheartedly. Full text under spoil tag.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Time for Rumsfeld to go
    “So long as our government requires the backing of an aroused and informed public opinion ... it is necessary to tell the hard bruising truth.”
    That statement was written by Pulitzer Prize-winning war correspondent Marguerite Higgins more than a half-century ago during the Korean War.

    But until recently, the “hard bruising” truth about the Iraq war has been difficult to come by from leaders in Washington.

    One rosy reassurance after another has been handed down by President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld: “mission accomplished,” the insurgency is “in its last throes,” and “back off,” we know what we’re doing, are a few choice examples.

    Military leaders generally toed the line, although a few retired generals eventually spoke out from the safety of the sidelines, inciting criticism equally from anti-war types, who thought they should have spoken out while still in uniform, and pro-war foes, who thought the generals should have kept their critiques behind closed doors.

    Now, however, a new chorus of criticism is beginning to resonate. Active-duty military leaders are starting to voice misgivings about the war’s planning, execution and dimming prospects for success.

    Army Gen. John Abizaid, chief of U.S. Central Command, told a Senate Armed Services Committee in September: “I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it ... and that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move towards civil war.”

    Last week, someone leaked to The New York Times a Central Command briefing slide showing an assessment that the civil conflict in Iraq now borders on “critical” and has been sliding toward “chaos” for most of the past year. The strategy in Iraq has been to train an Iraqi army and police force that could gradually take over for U.S. troops in providing for the security of their new government and their nation.

    But despite the best efforts of American trainers, the problem of molding a viciously sectarian population into anything resembling a force for national unity has become a losing proposition.

    For two years, American sergeants, captains and majors training the Iraqis have told their bosses that Iraqi troops have no sense of national identity, are only in it for the money, don’t show up for duty and cannot sustain themselves.

    Meanwhile, colonels and generals have asked their bosses for more troops. Service chiefs have asked for more money.

    And all along, Rumsfeld has assured us that things are well in hand.

    Now, the president says he’ll stick with Rumsfeld for the balance of his term in the White House.

    This is a mistake. It is one thing for the majority of Americans to think Rumsfeld has failed. But when the nation’s current military leaders start to break publicly with their defense secretary, then it is clear that he is losing control of the institution he ostensibly leads.

    These officers have been loyal public promoters of a war policy many privately feared would fail. They have kept their counsel private, adhering to more than two centuries of American tradition of subordination of the military to civilian authority.

    And although that tradition, and the officers’ deep sense of honor, prevent them from saying this publicly, more and more of them believe it.

    Rumsfeld has lost credibility with the uniformed leadership, with the troops, with Congress and with the public at large. His strategy has failed, and his ability to lead is compromised. And although the blame for our failures in Iraq rests with the secretary, it will be the troops who bear its brunt.

    This is not about the midterm elections. Regardless of which party wins Nov. 7, the time has come, Mr. President, to face the hard bruising truth:

    Donald Rumsfeld must go.

  2. #2
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Is there anyone who still doesn't agree with this . . . ?

    Ajax

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  3. #3
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Does no-one want to defend Rummy? Come on, where's DevDave?

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    The problem is that it is the Army wanting rid of Rumsfeld. So, to disagree with the article is to in effect disagree with the Army. Dave's loyalties are prpbaby more with the Army core than a politician.

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  5. #5
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Does no-one want to defend Rummy? Come on, where's DevDave?
    Just for grins, I'll put on my Devil's Advocate hat:

    -Invade Afghanistan. Check.
    -Defeat Taliban. Check.
    -Ivade Iraq. Check.
    -Defeat Republican Guard. Check.
    -Run a 2-theatre war with existing resources. Check.
    -Insure security during elections in both countries. Check.

    He's done all the major tasks assigned. Bush values loyalty over almost any other trait. Why should he fire his loyal lieutenant?

    ---------(Removes Devil's Advocate Hat)---------------

    Kukr's opinion: the entire chain of command, Rumsfield down to Private England's squad leader, should have offered their resignation after Abu Ghraib.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    I am not defending him, but a lot of the military do not like him for reasons other than Iraq I think.

    If I remember correctly, Rumsfeld's goal since before 9/11 was to change the military into a lighter, faster response type institution. This, I believe, meant not as much emphasis on the heavy tank and artillery divisions, and more resources directed towards new stuff like wheeled vehicles and light artillery.

    I remember there was a big fight over a certain piece of extremely heavy artillery in development that Rummy axed and it pissed off a great many people.

    Maybe the Army Times is comprised of a lot of old school Cold War guys who dont want to see the huge, cumbersome army yield to a quick response force, and they smell blood.

    On the other hand, he may have accomplished a lot in the initial invasions of both countries, but he does not seem to be able to handle an occupation. (I suspect he had very little to do with the actual invasions besides saying "go for it")

    We need to find someone who can handle the job that we have now, which is not to defeat a standing army, but a large, unorganized, guerilla force.
    ...trying to remember to spell check...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Rummy has some good qualities:

    (a) Transforming the military from the cold-war era to respond to modern threats was long overdue. The lessons of the 'Stan and the 'Roq have taught us how much of the military must transform and what is necessary to retain.

    (b) Performing a private-sector style overhaul of the federal employment system to base wages on performance rather than longevity. This will increase productivity and accountability. This overhaul is still ongoing and some of it faces very strong opposition in the courts. (Note: This is despised by most of the federal employee population for obvious reasons. I personally believe that federal law enforcement and emergency services cannot be measured in such a way and thus are an inappropriate candidate for this program. Nevertheless, I commend his efforts at reducing inefficieny and waste in bureacracy.)


    Despite this, the governance of the Iraqi Campaign falls squarely on the shoulders of the President and his closest advisors. While not as awful as it could be, the Iraqi Campaign has faced a number of obstacles which could have otherwise been avoided with a more pessimistic attitude towards the outcome. I believe that this is what many of the "neocons" have found frustrating about the Defense Secretary's policies within the conflict zone.


    As an interesting and related aside: President George W. Bush has taken the most flak for being too far left. His allowance of gross overspending and expansion of federal meddling has greatly discouraged the true conservatives of this nation. Secondly and as importantly, the Bush orientation towards the border is closer to that of Teddy Kennedy than the mainstream GOP. And lastly, the Iraqi Campaign has been fought with "kid gloves", where an eye towards media criticism and potential political fallout have allowed the perceived politically safe decision to be made instead of the right decision.
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    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    The Army Times is an over-priced weekly newspaper sold on military posts, which runs positive little human-interest pieces and an occasional "investigation" of a scandal that is already really hot in the civilian press, and prints alot of information about pay grades and promotion points and uniforms and stuff like that. It is written and edited by a bunch of soldiers from one of those pogue MOS's like Public Affairs or something like that, and the quality is usually a little bit higher than those free "journals" that get thrown on your front lawn. They're never ahead of the curve-- if they are printing an editorial like this, that means there's a strong general consensus. My incidental experiences would confirm this.

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    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    yeah my bad
    Last edited by Major Robert Dump; 11-05-2006 at 22:27.
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  10. #10
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Public Affairs Officer (Press Relations MOS 46A) is different from Civil Affairs (gov't-builders, MOS 38A).
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 11-05-2006 at 22:13.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    I have no idea why Bush keeps Rumsfeld. The guy did infact offer to resign twice already and Bush denied it.

    Obviously Rumsfeld is no good at his job since he doesn't like to listen to the generals and commanders who actually know what they're talking about.

    It makes me wonder if the war would have been going better if this administration would have actually listened to the generals and commanders.

    "Sir, these tactics are not working. We must change our strategy."

    "Nonsense. Stay the course."


    Last edited by Ares; 11-06-2006 at 01:18.

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  12. #12
    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Ares
    Obviously Rumsfeld is no good at his job since he doesn't like to listen to the generals and commanders who actually know what they're talking about.

    It makes me wonder if the war would have been going better if this administration would have actually listened to the generals and commanders.


    i don;t know very much about this, but to quote Prince of Poodles,

    If I remember correctly, Rumsfeld's goal since before 9/11 was to change the military into a lighter, faster response type institution. This, I believe, meant not as much emphasis on the heavy tank and artillery divisions, and more resources directed towards new stuff like wheeled vehicles and light artillery.

    I remember there was a big fight over a certain piece of extremely heavy artillery in development that Rummy axed and it pissed off a great many people.

    Maybe the Army Times is comprised of a lot of old school Cold War guys who dont want to see the huge, cumbersome army yield to a quick response force, and they smell blood.
    It seems to me that some of the generals and commanders were against change, and he did that - naturaly they then make a fuss when he messes up... although i agree he isnt exactly doing a good job now

    I have no idea why Bush keeps Rumsfeld. The guy did infact offer to resign twice already and Bush denied it.
    to quote Kukri...

    ust for grins, I'll put on my Devil's Advocate hat:

    -Invade Afghanistan. Check.
    -Defeat Taliban. Check.
    -Ivade Iraq. Check.
    -Defeat Republican Guard. Check.
    -Run a 2-theatre war with existing resources. Check.
    -Insure security during elections in both countries. Check.

    He's done all the major tasks assigned. Bush values loyalty over almost any other trait. Why should he fire his loyal lieutenant?

  13. #13
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    I don't think its the change thing. That Crusader Artillery thingy was not divided pro/con strictly along young/old leadership in the military. It had a hell of a lot more to do with people in leadership roles having personal and financial interests in seeing the thing manufactured.


    I don't think Rumsfield needs to go, remember guys the mission is accomplished and the insurgency is in its last throes!!!!1111
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  14. #14
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Yet another interesting post from the NRO. Did you know that Rumsfeld is hugely popular within the armed forces? Well, now you do.

    The hard truth — and I know people don't want to hear it — is that Rumsfeld is hugely popular among the military, as is obvious in any of his Town Halls and speeches to them. It will be interesting to see how the military reacts to the Army Times editorial. I wouldn't be surprised by a fairly serious blowback.

  15. #15
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Did anyone ever read the quotes from the German Squash player that played Rummy in an exhibition match? He basically said the old man was way too aggressive, tried to push the line on fouls every chance he gets. Basically, Rumsfield is too competitive. In a lot of ways he has the good qualities that Nixon possessed.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Well the man is butting heads with the old school military establishment and therefore is bound to be hugely unpopular with them. This is why civilian control of the military is so important; it promotes radical reformation. It doesn't matter how many generals speak out against him and how much the press loves it. He is modernizing the military without using the limp wristed Shinseki methodology (you know, the guy who pushed for and got the black beret and wanted to get rid of ALL tracked vehicles, especially tanks). We’re not the Soviets: occupation isn’t our thing, winning battles is.


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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Rummy’s biggest mistake is not having a scapegoat; as soon as Iraq started bogging down he should have (very publicly) put someone he doesn’t like in charge of the Iraq operation. Best case, it works out, worst case, scapegoat!
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    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Ah, my little Machiavelli. You have learned well.

    Ajax

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  19. #19
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    Rummy’s biggest mistake is not having a scapegoat; as soon as Iraq started bogging down he should have (very publicly) put someone he doesn’t like in charge of the Iraq operation. Best case, it works out, worst case, scapegoat!
    Not entirely true -- read State of Denial, which documents every little backbiting move made by every player in the Iraqi reconstruction game. Rummy went from blocking State on every front to blaming them on every front in the blink of an eye. He's read his Machiavelli.

    It didn't play for the public, but it worked for his primary audience, the President and Vice President. He dodged all blame for the failure of reconstruction within the Admin.

  20. #20
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Not entirely true -- read State of Denial, which documents every little backbiting move made by every player in the Iraqi reconstruction game. Rummy went from blocking State on every front to blaming them on every front in the blink of an eye. He's read his Machiavelli.

    It didn't play for the public, but it worked for his primary audience, the President and Vice President. He dodged all blame for the failure of reconstruction within the Admin.
    That’s the important part now.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    He's going to step down today, I hear.

  22. #22
    Somewhere out there Member vizigothe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    He just did!
    In Pace Requiescat.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Who is Robert Gates?

  24. #24
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Here's Gates' wikipedia bio. I haven't caught the news, is he the new SecDef?

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Here's Gates' wikipedia bio. I haven't caught the news, is he the new SecDef?
    Rumor so far. However, all but locked-in. Former Chief Spook.
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  26. #26
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go




  27. #27
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Watching El Presidente's press conference right now... maybe it's the camera angle, but Bush looks like he feels all alone up there. He's tripping over himself to explain (3 times so far) why he changed his mind on Rummy.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  28. #28
    Member Member KafirChobee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Gates will probably be accepted unanimously. He is pretty much a shoo in. His CIA credentials give some respectability to the intelliegence and military communities (since the CIA was running Afghanistan for so long), and his being the Prez of a noted University don't hurt.

    Why it took so long to lose Rummy is still a major curiousity - most Presidents would have tossed such an albatros overboard many moons ago.

    Now, about Chenney!
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  29. #29
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    Quote Originally Posted by KafirChobee
    Gates will probably be accepted unanimously. He is pretty much a shoo in. His CIA credentials give some respectability to the intelliegence and military communities (since the CIA was running Afghanistan for so long), and his being the Prez of a noted University don't hurt.

    Why it took so long to lose Rummy is still a major curiousity - most Presidents would have tossed such an albatros overboard many moons ago.

    Now, about Chenney!
    Chenney will have to tender his resignation as the Vice President. I don't believe that a President has ever "fired" their Vice President, and I don't even know if it is technically possible.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  30. #30
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army Times: Rumsfeld Must Go

    The talking heads on cable news channels are spreading the rumor that Bush made the Rumsfeld decision without the consent of VP Cheney, and whispering that Dick C's influence is waning dramatically.

    On the other hand, during his press conference, Bush was definitive to the point of curtness, on Cheney staying around for the remainder of the term.

    Maybe GW will send his VP out on hunting trips with the new Demo leaders, to improve relations. :)
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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