More Muslim Trouble in the Land of Oz

[Vladimir]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/s...1-3102,00.html

A RELIGIOUS feud between a Muslim father and his teenage daughter may have sparked a bloody domestic dispute on the Gold Coast which left the man's wife dead and him fighting for life in hospital.

Police are investigating suggestions the violence erupted after the 17-year-old girl told her father she wanted to opt out of the Islamic faith and convert to Christianity. The girl's mother is believed to have stepped in to protect her daughter, only to be fatally stabbed with a kitchen knife.

I have another cheeky story about a baby being used as a club in a domestic incident in PA. Anyone want that one too?

For the sake of balance, here's one from the US:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/07/chi....ap/index.html

I'd really like to know if these people are of the trailer park trash variety or what. Sheesh.

I feel like I need to post some happy stuff in the Frontroom now.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I wasn't aware that domestic violence was an exclusively Muslim problem.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I wasn't aware that he was talking about simple domestic violence.

Crazed Rabbit

[Banquo's Ghost]

I wasn't aware that he was talking about simple domestic violence.

Ah, simple domestic violence. As opposed to complicated domestic violence, one supposes?

[Dâriûsh]

Ah, simple domestic violence. As opposed to complicated domestic violence, one supposes?

How about a pathetic man willing to kill his family for the sake of his “personal honour”?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ah, simple domestic violence. As opposed to complicated domestic violence, one supposes?

As opposed to trying to kill your daughter and actually killing your wife becuase your daughter wants to convert to a different religion.

CR

[Scurvy]

I wasn't aware that domestic violence was an exclusively Muslim problem.

exactly, why cover muslim domestic violence exclusively?

[BDC]

I think honour killing is more of a cultural issue than a religious one. I know a Hindu guy with the same kind of problems. He didn't take up my cunning suggestion of him marrying a gay Muslim just to antagonise his family. :(

[Ser Clegane]

I think honour killing is more of a cultural issue than a religious one.

And that exactly nails it - mixing up (unacceptable) behaviour that is based on regional cultures with bevaviour that is rather based on religion seems to be quite common nowadays (the two are of course often influencing each other).

It should be noted that honor killings also used to be not so uncommon in Christian parts of Southern Europe (e.g. Southern parts of Italy)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In Europe didn't honour killings usually involve someone outside the family?

I.e. you kill the man that stole your daughter's verginity, rather than your daughter?

Either way honour killings are utterly pathetic. You are responsible for your own actions. If she wants to become a Christian it should reflect on her, not her father.

[BDC]

In Europe didn't honour killings usually involve someone outside the family?

I.e. you kill the man that stole your daughter's verginity, rather than your daughter?

Either way honour killings are utterly pathetic. You are responsible for your own actions. If she wants to become a Christian it should reflect on her, not her father.

Indeed, but it insults the family or something.

I'll never understand the concept properly.

[Crazed Rabbit]

And that exactly nails it - mixing up (unacceptable) behaviour that is based on regional cultures with bevaviour that is rather based on religion seems to be quite common nowadays (the two are of course often influencing each other).

It should be noted that honor killings also used to be not so uncommon in Christian parts of Southern Europe (e.g. Southern parts of Italy)

It seems to me the problem is with Islamic culture, no matter where these events take place; Iran, Australia, or Germany. Do the Christians, or non-muslims, living in the Middle East practice honor killings?

Crazed Rabbit

[Keba]

Until recently (or possibly still) blood feuds were common in Albania ... similar enogh. The recently bit means as recently as 8 years ago, maybe still ... I'm kinda out of touch with the place.

[Reenk Roink]

It seems to me the problem is with Islamic culture, no matter where these events take place; Iran, Australia, or Germany. Do the Christians, or non-muslims, living in the Middle East practice honor killings?

Yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3149030.stm

Scotland Yard believe there were 12 'honour killings' in the UK last year and said they were not restricted to Muslims, but also occurred in Sikh and Christian families.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Funny that that statement was in an article on how a Muslim man killed his daughter for becomeing westernized in Britain.

More importantly, they offer no proof of honor killings amoung different cultures. They could label one nut an 'honor killing', which it may well be, but it would not be an indication of a cultural thing unless there are others from that same culture doing it. After all, it would be foolish to say only Muslims do honor killings. But it would be foolish too to ignore their prevalence.

If people are saying that these honor killings are really cultural and not religious based, there should be a proportionate amount of examples of non-Muslims in areas in the Middle East commiting honor killings.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

Do the Christians, or non-muslims, living in the Middle East practice honor killings?

I'll grant you that these killings are nor very widespread nowadays - that they used to be more common than they are today does not change the facts that they are primarily culturally driven.

Usually you will also notice that these things rather happen in rural areas (or involve people with a rather rural background).

[Fragony]

It's a cultural thing not religihihiHAHABUAHAHAHAHA damnit let me try again.

It's...a culturellllllllllllllllllllllllMAO god this is hard.

focus..........

It'sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss dear lord

I give up how do you do it?

[lanky316]

It's not explained how he ended up in critical condition there. Surely it should be the wife killed and daughter wounded?

[Ser Clegane]

Fragony I am not quite sure what your problem is here - but as soon as you are able to breathe again I might offer some clarification.

The fact that this is rather based on regional cultures than on a specific religion, does not make the "idea" of honor killing any more acceptable (just as the mutilation of the genitalia of a woman that some cultures practice is not acceptable for us).

However, instead of resorting to the usual knee-jerk reaction it might be helpful from time to time to at least try to understand what certain "customs" might be based on

[Fragony]

Fragony I am not quite sure what your problem is here - but as soon as you are able to breathe again I might offer some clarification.

Oh don't mind me, just having fun with lethal family tragedies.

[caravel]

I'm not so sure it's a culture thing. I am almost 90% certain it is an islamic issue. If the girl was almost killed for wanting to convert to another faith, and her mother actually killed protecting her, then how is that strictly cultural (an islamic culture anyway when you consider that religion controls almost every aspect of their lives)? It seems to me, and probably to most others that aren't overzealous apologists, that this is just another display of muslim intolerance of the apostate in any form, as is evident in the quran and moreso in the hadith.

[Pannonian]

I'm not so sure it's a culture thing. I am almost 90% certain it is an islamic issue. If the girl was almost killed for wanting to convert to another faith, and her mother actually killed protecting her, then how is that strictly cultural (an islamic culture anyway when you consider that religion controls almost every aspect of their lives)? It seems to me, and probably to most others that aren't overzealous apologists, that this is just another display of muslim intolerance of the apostate in any form, as is evident in the quran and moreso in the hadith.

Have you heard of the story of Verginia and Appius Claudius?

Islam was established from a nomadic base, unlike Christianity which was always an urban religion. Muhammed set rules for his followers that allowed them to transcend their nomadic roots. For as long as the Islamic empire ruled, they kept to the spirit of his strictures. Now that the Islamic world has fallen apart, they're going back to their old ways. What makes it particularly fun is that Muslim conservatives have picked and chosen the worst customs from every part of their erstwhile empire and put them together as "true" Islam.

I suspect Muhammed, if he lived today, would be reviled by the elders as a lax Muslim who did not observe the religion correctly - there's a story that says the later caliph of Egypt chastised him for exactly this, even during his lifetime. I suspect that's not that much different from Jesus, whose communist leanings would get little sympathy in the Christian world today.

[Radier]

Honor killings is not a muslim thing. It's a part of the whole middle-eastern culture as some allready have said. A friend of mine lost his mother in honor killing. The father murdered the mother and they are all christian assyrian who lived in Bagdhad.

[caravel]

Have you heard of the story of Verginia and Appius Claudius?

I have. An example of so called "honour killing". The problem here is that the incident in question bears only some of the hallmarks of an honour killing, which are usually planned, cold blooded affairs, not spontaneous frenzied, on the spot knifings (which can occur in any culture). The issue is not the murder/attempted murder itself but the circumstances surrounding this particular killing, which was a reaction to the daughter's apostasy. That is, her renunciation of islam in favour of christianity. I don't feel that we can put such incidents in a box, and simply write them off as honour killings, when it is clear why this woman (the girl's mother) was killed. She was attempting to defend an apostate, from someone that was obviously fanatical in their belief, that the punishment for apostasy should be death.

[Reenk Roink]

Funny that that statement was in an article on how a Muslim man killed his daughter for becomeing westernized in Britain.

More importantly, they offer no proof of honor killings amoung different cultures. They could label one nut an 'honor killing', which it may well be, but it would not be an indication of a cultural thing unless there are others from that same culture doing it. After all, it would be foolish to say only Muslims do honor killings. But it would be foolish too to ignore their prevalence.

If people are saying that these honor killings are really cultural and not religious based, there should be a proportionate amount of examples of non-Muslims in areas in the Middle East commiting honor killings.

Crazed Rabbit

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...orkilling.html

Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.

According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the fifty-eighth session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, in 2002, concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83, linked below):

The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honour defence in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, Syria, Turkey, Venezuela and the West Bank.

Some of these (eg Turkey) have since been abrogated.

Countries where the law can be interpreted to allow men to kill female relatives in cold blood as well as in flagrante delicto (in the act of committing adultery) include:
*Jordan: part of article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty" [5]. This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament[6].

Countries that allow men to kill female relatives in flagrante delicto (but not in cold blood) include:
*Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants, descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."

Countries that allow husbands to kill only their wives in flagrante delicto (based upon the Napoleonic Code) include:
*Morocco, where Article 418 of the Penal Code states "Murder, injury and beating are excusable if they are committed by a husband on his wife as well as the accomplice at the moment in which he surprises them in the act of adultery."
*Haiti, where Article 269 of the Penal Code states that "in the case of adultery as provided for in Article 284, the murder by a husband of his wife and/or her partner, immediately upon discovering them in flagrante delicto in the conjugal abode, is to be pardoned."

In Turkey, murder laws formerly contain a specific provision for reduction in sentence from an maximum of 24 years imprisonment to 8 years if the perpretrator was "provoked". The sentence was raised to 24 years in 2003. After European Union pressure, Turkey prohibited family members from being able to claim "provocation" and thereby receive lighter sentences. [7][8]

In two Latin American countries, similar laws were struck down over the past two decades: according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery." [9]

Countries where honor killing is not legal but is frequently ignored in practice include:

*Pakistan: Honor killing are supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignored it. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worl.../24/2003180222 Consequently, on October 26, 2004, Pakistan's lower house of Parliament passed a bill that would make honor killings punishable by a prison term of seven years and the death penalty in the most extreme cases. The bill must be approved by the upper house before becoming law. The bill was introduced by the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf due to the hundreds of honor killings that occur each year in Pakistan, government officials reported. Nilofer Baktiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honor killings. [10]

I see some (Catholic) South American and (non-Muslim) African Countries there. I also see a basis on the (non-Muslim) Napoleonic Code. I also fail to see (Muslim) South East Asian countries like Malaysia and Indonesia...

Keep denying it though, if it makes you feel good...

[Ser Clegane]

Reenk Roink, while I also hold the view that honor killings are not limited to muslims (and more importantly that for the honor killings committed by muslims, legion is not the cause), the article does not really prove that point as it only gives information where honor killings happen and not about the background of the people who were involved.

While I would not be surprised if the killings in Brazil were not with a muslim background, I would not also not be surprised if the majority of the honor killings in e.g., Great Britain, Italy and Sweden were done by non-natives.

[Fragony]

"Crónica de una muerte anunciada" by Gabriel García Márquez is about honor killings in latin america, pretty good book. He doesn't really want to kill his wives lover but the pressure from his family becomes too much.

ps, it were catholics

[Ser Clegane]

Without going too much OT - there is also a good movie (with Ornella Muti) based on that book.

[Reenk Roink]

The European countries mentioned had cases of honor killings among immigrants. Then of course there are the Arab nations and the South East Asian nations.

Now, we have had one person already state that an Assyrian Christian (middle-eastern) family had an incident of an honor killing in Iraq.

My previous article stated that Sikh and Christian families also committed honor killings in the U.K along with Muslims.

Then there is the interesting thing of the law codes, based on the Napoleonic Code.

Like the article states:

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

[Fragony]

Well that's the obligitory 'christians burned witches' line, but in the islamic culture it's rampant, and that is no coincidence. If women are possesion they get butchered for the smallest dissobedience, it isn't really what they do, but they get butchered because it goes against the will of the husband/father, making him look like a fool that can't control it's cattle.